Home Forums Reloading Varmint Rifles 222 vs. 223 - Accuracy Wise

Here is a group from a 222 Magnum. 50 gr. BK 28grs. BenchMark Nosler case (reformed) CCI 450. 3,500 fps from 21" Sako L461 Vixen (sorry if I have posted this B-4).


I run my 222 Mag with 40's and 50's at 24" bbl. 223 speeds. A 223 AI before there was one.

Hawk,

EXCELLENT group!!!

Don

Thanks Don.

I have shot much smaller ones with my Sako 222 Rem (since this is a 223/222 thread.It will consistently make groups that size

The smallest one I've fired thus far hit .135, but no pic and I have mis-placed the target

Hey Varmint guy, always enjoy your posts!

I'm not a Spring chicken! I was shooting p.dogs back when you could still see the Buffalo wallows on the dog towns! Hee Hee!

I know that you have a boat load of guns. Many of the reloading manuals are crap today....lawyers killed the ballisticians!

I am shooting the 50's at 3600+ out of my Hart barrel'd 223 with a minimum spec chamber with zero freebore using 133, IMI brass, and CCI BR -4's. My buddy shoots the exact same loads in is several customs, so I know that it is no fluke. On the calm days, groups in the high 1's and low 2's are no big deal with the 8-32 that rides the rifle...shore nuff BR competitive...then again, I had rather turn queer than to shoot another Registered Benchrest match.

I'm loading the 55's at 3500+ fps with N-135 and so is my buddy in his 3 customs...again, no big deal in IMI brass.

The reloading manuals are only a guide, you have to rely on your rifle to tell you what is the max load...and it can't read! Hee Hee!

Keep the posts coming...love them all!

Send my a PM and I'll give you more info...I know you are no dummy.

Keith: Thank you for the kind words. They are appreciated.
But I think YOU are escaping my point, my attempt at communicating with you, my rationale and my ongoing experiences with ballistic comparisons type conversations!
Yes you can "motivate" the 223 to steamy velocities - BUT - you can do the same thing to a 222!
Its my policy that I will ONLY partake of safe and recommended loadings for my comparisons.
The differences in over max loads for the 223 vs over max loads for the 222 are the SAME DIFFERENCES as those in safe or maximum recommended load comparisons.
But you have to compare same-o to same-o in order to make valid comparisons.
Its not fair or practical to compare OVER MAXIMUM loads for the "proponents" cartridge with the SAFE loads of the "antagonists" cartridge!!!
That point of mine, I hope is clearer now.
I enthusiastically, wholeheartedly and un-begrudgingly concede that my 223's have higher velocities than my 222's (when bullets and barrel lengths are comparable in each)!
And I agree lawyers have diminished our reloading realities of late - across the board!
And you are right - our Rifles can't read the reloading manuals. That goes for ALL our Rifles the 223's and the 222's.
I do know this, I am going to be seeking out some IMI brass to give it a try - as I am interested in accuracy and brass life (longevity) and, not so much interested in maxing out velocities.
By coincidence I had a long talk over iced tea just yesterday (90 degrees here in the high Rockies!) with my Elk and Varmint shooting, gunsmith, friend.
He nearly fell out of his chair when I told him I had never tried any IMI brass in my Rifles.
He was taking a break from "lead lapping" the barrel on his high dollar savage 223 (yeah savage does make a high dollar 223!).
Anyway I am absolutely thrilled you are getting excellent, no, STELLAR accuracy with your 223! I am a little concerned you are pushing the safety envelope while doing so though.
Better safe than sorry is another of my mottos!
By the way this is the same gunsmith who had an explosion in his firearm about 2 months ago! He immediately marched his bleeding and stunned self down to the local sports shop where he had them photograph his hands and face with their camera. The purpose of his humbling efforts here was to graphically illustrate the power and destructive force of a human error when handloading! AND to illustrate the reason approved shooting glasses should be worn while shooting! His face was peppered with wounds except for his eyes which had been protected by shooting glasses.
Lets back peddle another couple of weeks to when my 1,000 yard bench resting friend made a "human error" and had his Rifle detonate while at a registered match. In a similar humbling and humanitarian act, before he sought medical attention, he posed for similar pictures of the injuries to his face, head and neck!
Staying away from OVER MAX handloads wipes out the worries invoked in a whole class of dangerous situations that may befall a handloader.
I have to relay another human error handloading situation but this one is from about 12 years ago. My good friend Jay from Issaquah, Washington made a human error (oversight) while handloading and then shooting his Winchester pre-64 Model 70 in 264 Winchester Magnum caliber. His error causes an explosion that neccesitated a trip to the eye surgeon for brass shrapnel removal from his eye!
Luckily he was not blinded - "un-luckily", he is HUMAN!
Not 4 weeks after the inital "incident" he was shooting the same Rifle with the same ammunition and then, of course, he had to visit the SAME eye surgeon for another brass shrapnel removal operation!
When I became aware of these incidents (his wife mentioned them to me when I called for him) I came un-glued! I drove directly to his home and began an investigation.
My findings were not positive but my corrective action agenda put an end to his case head seperation situation.
The cure was simple - buy new brass, quit using the 30+ year old and many times (unknown how many!) reloaded brass, and, step back from full MAXIMUM powder charges in his loads.
Now we are all human (at least I know I am) and prone to errors, mistakes and mis-judgements. But to intentionally push the envelope is only asking for danger, harm and added expenses.
You touch on another "human" fraility - "queer-ness"!
I have to share this one with you.
I had known a fellow for literally all of my life. I grew up playing all manner of sports with him and his younger brother (who was exactly my age). Then when I began Hunting for Deer I shared remote Hunting camps with him now and again for more than 20 years.
During this time I became a policeman in Seattle when I was 21 years of age and about 20 years later I had a temporary assignment walking a foot beat in the "queer" area of Seattle. Well in this area was a little known, obscure and dinghy homosexual hang-out!
I mean even among the gay bars of Seattle this place was "weird"!
It catered to leather freaks (and I won't go into their proclivities here in this family oriented site!). Anyway the patrons of this bar all dress in leathery garb with no underclothes and often times they have leather hats and leather whips for additional accoutrements! AND furthermore they would adorn themselves (as was the "in" thing to do back then!) with cowboy style handerkerchiefs! Now pay attention here cause this gets wierd. The "color" of the "leather freaks" handkerchief and placement (which pocket it hung out of or what arm it was wrapped around etc) of the colored handkerchief gave others "in the know" and inside look into the wearers further bizarro sexual proclivities and desires!!!
Well on one of my assigned nights to work this area I and my partner decide to make a premise check of this "leather freak" bar!
In we go and what do I see out on the dance floor in a simulated sexual bump and grind "dance" with several other sweaty leather wearing "men" - was my life long friend and sometimes Deer Hunting partner!
And he was wearing his optional colored handkerchief in a manner that indicated he was a REAL bizarro homo-sexual type!
I was aghast!
My friend who by then, had, taken notice of the two huge policemen staring at him and his daisy chain like dance partners!
Ackward would have been an understatement of the description of that moment in time!
No one knew!
I swear - I didn't!
Anyway don't turn "queer" on us but do keep up the good shooting with your 223.
And back it down a grain - for old time sakes, please!
And don't let me catch you wearing that baby blue handkerchief hanging out of your left rear pocket ever again!
LOL!
Hold into the wind
VarmintGuy

I shoot em both and I like em both but when it gets down to knit picken accuracy differences,I believe I would place my bet on the 222 remington,matter of fact the most accurate rifle I ever owned is a remington 700 BDL varmint in 222 remington 5 shots at a hundred yards produced 1 tiny lil ragged hole time & time again.........

Yeah,

Reform some 223 IMI cases and a tight custom rifle and you can run'er to 3,400-3,450 with 50's. (grins)

Thanks Varmintguy!

We achieve these high velocities by having minimum spec match chambers with zero freebore with a .2445 throat. In otherwords, all the pressure is behind the bullet instead of blowing out in front of the bullet getting the bullet to start somewhat crooked in the throat, this is the same technology that is used to build benchrest rifles which is no big deal. This same technology can be applied to all varmint rifles, and deer calibers with amazing speeds with extreme accuracy.

I'm not a Crazy SOB at all, I saw my idiot friend blow the bottom out of two 870's shooting over max loads of HS-6 with 1 1/2 oz duck loads...bleeding fingers are the last thing that you want on a hunting tip.

thanks for your concern!

Keith: Your detailed explanation of how you avoid the problems that usually come with over-MAXIMUM loads, is greatly appreciated and relieves my concerns somewhat.
Thank you for that.
I have shot along side some custom Varminters chambered in 223 Remington Ackley Improved and they are "impressive" afield to say the least.
I agree totally with your "quiet" but accurate Rifles theory of extending a persons Colony Varmint shooting opportunities. One of my "long range" 222's is an extremely accurate Remington 40XB-BR with a Leupold straight 24 power scope on it.
This Rifle makes mincemeat (quietly!) out of Prairie Dogs out to the quarter mile marker! I always have my Leica Laser Rangefinder along when Hunting Colony Varmints! If its windy then the ol'VarmintGuy knows some tricks on how to keep the kill clicker moving the count on up!
Yes indeed speed without accuracy is not a desirable attribute of any cartridge.
Thanks again for the explanation and venture into the "next level" of reloading expertise AND into your insights on chambering our custom Varminters for the utmost in efficiency (velocity)!
Speaking of Speer Manuals (I have a full set of them including the hard to find "Wildcat Cartridges" Edition) I picked up off of the shelf today, a brand new Speer Reloading Manual Edition #14!
It was wrapped in plastic and I did not want to open it to see if it might be worth the $34.50 asking price - I simply put it back on the shelf.
I have been rather disappointed of recent with the latest "batch" of loading manuals.
Any suggestions on where to buy IMI 223 brass?
Hold into the wind
VarmintGuy
P.S.: Ooops your "detailed explanation" is no longer in your posting - I wish I would have printed it out before it left.

Thanks Varmint Guy, I felt as if I needed to tone it down a bit and be a little more politically correct.

IMI ( also marked TZZ in military) brass has all but disappeared.
Rumor was that Lapua was making the brass for IMI while the factory was being built or something like that. Lapua is good stuff also, just a little more pricy.

I have had good luck with the Rem brass in 223, just back down the load to 25.5g with the n-133 with the 50's to save primer pockets.

I shot my first p. dogs with a 222 40X BR, great rifle. I think that the load was 20.5g of IMr 4198 with the 50g Sierra Blitz.

I always thought that N130 with the 50's in the 222 would be a real winner for speed and accuracy.

Take care!

I have a couple of pounds of N-130 and N-133, so I loaded up a bunch of Speer 45 grain bullets with N-130 in 223 yesterday morning and hit the range with them in the afternoon.
Working up the powder ladder, I hit paydirt with 25 grains of powder. I like the high speed loads for the 223 with 45 grain bullets. I have a load worked up for another 223 using Clint Starke's 45 grain Varmint bullet with IMR-4198 that is far more accurate than it should be. But, Clint doesn't make bullets any longer, so I'm looking for another good high speed 45 grain bullet. I think I've found the bullet!!!

Keith: Holy Cow!
Small world it is!
I first tried that Sierra 50 grain Blitz bullet and 20.5 grs. of IMR 4198 back on December 15th 1995!
Back then I was using Remington nickel plated 222 brass and Remington 7 1/2 primers.
That first day, with that loading, I was VERY pleased when I produced a 5 shot group at 100 yards that measured .290"!
THEN, I fired the next five cartridges using this load and made an extremely impressive (with Varmint bullets!) grouping that measured .178"!
I still have that little group/target around here somewhere.
I have used that load on Prairie Dogs quite a bit since then.
I tell you one thing for sure its groupings like those that keeps me buying bullets that come in green boxes year after year, decade after decade!
For the Sierra folks to obviously put that much care in their "lowly" 50 grain Blitz (not the BlitzKings) bullets says something I like hearing.
Again small world - on that same loading in similar Rifles!
Hold into the wind
VarmintGuy

Too many varibles to make a accurate debate...I would boil it down to one thing..."the best barrel"

Ray,
Right on.
I've been paying close attention to case prep and loading too. Case prep is a PITA, but it's paying dividends for my 222 and 223.
I've been weighing cases and sorting them, along with deburring flash holes inside, and reaming primer pockets. Plus, I seat bullets with Wilson type dies to control runout. The proof is in some excellent accuracy I've been getting. With my ancient Rem 722 in 222 Rem, just this week I shot a three shot group that measured .184" at 100 yards, using a 20x scope I use for load developing.
If the rifle hadn't had a good barrel to begin with, I'd never have shot that kind of group.

Don