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#247329 - 02/05/04 Where is Clay Harvey?
Trappertom Offline
Member

Registered: 01/07/04
Posts: 70
Loc: MN
Read my last question in Bret4207's post "Old favorite writers."
_________________________
God, grant me the senility to forget the guns I never liked, the good fortune to run into the ones I do, and the eyesight to know the difference.

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#247330 - 02/05/04 Re: Where is Clay Harvey?
Cheaha Offline
Campfire Tracker

Registered: 04/09/02
Posts: 6401
Loc: Mt.Cheaha,AL.
Do a search here. I believe JB answered that question awhile back about ole "StickyFingers Harvey"...
_________________________
James


But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines, the commandments of men. Mt 15:9

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#247331 - 02/05/04 Re: Where is Clay Harvey?
Trappertom Offline
Member

Registered: 01/07/04
Posts: 70
Loc: MN
Cheaha, Thank you for the suggestion. I did a search. Nothing showed up.
_________________________
God, grant me the senility to forget the guns I never liked, the good fortune to run into the ones I do, and the eyesight to know the difference.

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#247332 - 02/05/04 Re: Where is Clay Harvey?
dogzapper Offline
Campfire Kahuna Emeritus &
Campfire Outfitter

Registered: 03/19/03
Posts: 7807
Trapper,

If you want the truth, after screwing about every manufacturer in the industry, he got "blackballed."

I owned a jewelry store at the time and he didn't ignore me, either. The dickhead stiffed me for a three thousand dollar Rolex watch.

Last I heard, he was working in a frozen yogurt shop in South Carolina. That's fitting.

Yes, he could tell a yarn, but the man had practically no field experience. Almost all of his stuff was either the experience of others or total fiction.

Once, when I was working with Kimber, I was elected to be his ammo carrier and counter of gopher bodies. The man proved to be perhaps the worst shot I've ever seen. This was quite a revelation for me; after all, this was the great Clay Harvey. Any gopher beyond fifty yards was totally safe, even with the new Kimber Super America .223 that was presented to him.

Of course, Clay sold the rifle at a gun show the next week. Typical

He called me once and asked, "Steve, how many .284 Winchester rounds,on the average, does it take to stop a mature whitetail buck." My answer was pretty simple; "ONE."

Those of us who are honest writers still feel the effects of Clay's dishonesty. Too bad, but I surely do not blame them.

Steve


Edited by dogzapper (02/05/04)

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#247333 - 02/05/04 Re: Where is Clay Harvey?
Ward Offline
Campfire Ranger

Registered: 02/05/01
Posts: 1810
Loc: Western Washington
dogzapper,
You don't have to hold back your true feelings. Just go ahead and let us know how you really feel. Ward

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#247334 - 02/05/04 Re: Where is Clay Harvey?
Ken Howell Offline
Campfire Oracle

Registered: 12/14/00
Posts: 29348
I "inherited" Clay as one of my staff writers when I succeeded the recently departed Neal Knox as editor of Handloader and Rifle magazines in 1978. He came out for a visit and quickly succeeded in making himself thoroughly unpopular with our staff. After a while, the material that he sent me got too sloppy to tolerate from a staff writer, so I took him off the staff but encouraged him to send me cleaner material as a free-lancer and earn his old staff position again (as he had done before). He acknowledged that he'd gotten increasingly sloppy and seemed to accept my decision like an honest man. But I never got any more material from him.

I don't think I announced his removal from my staff. IIRC, readers noticed the absence of his material and mast-head listing in later issues of the magazines.

Then I started hearing, one after another, from manufacturers from whom he'd borrowed dozens of guns (on limited-time consignments), which he'd neither returned nor paid for. The manufacturers were very lenient -- offered to extend the consignment periods, but needed signed copies of his renewed FFL for their records. He wouldn't answer their repeated inquiries. Finally, one manufacturer was forced to report to the BATF that he had not provided the needed FFL copy. Then it came -- in a BATF envelope.

The total value of all those rifles, handguns, and shotguns -- even at the much lower "friendly" prices for writers -- ran to a total well into five figures (that's $xy,000!). The last I heard, a grand total of no gun had been returned, and a super total of $0 had been received by any of several manufacturers.

And that wasn't all of it. Several ammo companies told me that a typical request from Clay was Send me a case of each load that you offer for the [.30-06, .44 Magnum, etc] -- a total, sometimes, of close to a dozen cases per cartridge.

Then I heard from some of Clay's shooter neighbors, including dealers and gunsmiths, who reported that Clay had (a) offered them great quantities of factory ammo at less than retail price and (b) had a huge selection of new rifles, handguns, and shotguns on his tables at local gun shows -- for sale.

Let me make this clear, because a number of my writer and editor friends condemned me for "exposing" and "firing" Clay and black-balling him with the manufacturers. I did neither. All of the "dirt" on Clay came out, independent of and separate from my limited role in removing him from his staff position. I learned of the rest afterward and had no part in spreading the word. That kind of word gets around this industry pretty fast on its own legs with no help from me.

A couple of other editors continued to buy material from Clay -- until he sold 'em both the same article, and both published it (neither aware that the other also had it) -- which is a cardinal no-no for writers. So I have no trouble guessing or understanding why you don't see his byline in any recent publication.

Too bad. Clay was able. But he fouled his own bed.

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#247335 - 02/05/04 Re: Where is Clay Harvey?
muledeer Offline
Campfire Outfitter

Registered: 06/20/01
Posts: 8704
Loc: Ketchikan, AK, USA
I had a brief correspondence with him 20-odd years ago, relative to an article he wrote about the "inherent inaccuracy" of the .257 Roberts cartridge, regardless of rifle brand, action type, barrel, rifling twist, etc. Pre-Internet, so I had to write him an old-fashioned manual letter. Sent him targets and everything, just to make the point that even in my old, short-action long-throat SUCKS 722 the Roberts accuracy was far more than adequate. His basic response was that no amount of evidence would change what he knew to be right.

The ancient Greek philosophers called it "hubris".
_________________________
"The more you run over a dead cat, the flatter it gets."

"If you're asking me something technical, you may be looking for My Other Brother Darrell."

"It ain't foot-pounds that kills stuff -- it's broken body parts."

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#247336 - 02/06/04 Re: Where is Clay Harvey?
Hondo64d Offline
Campfire Guide

Registered: 05/18/03
Posts: 4173
Loc: The Big Country
He must have also put the article in a book he wrote that was distributed by the North American Hunting Club. I remember reading it. I don't have it handy, but I think the book was titled "The Hunter's Rifle."

John
_________________________
If my people, who are called by my name, will humble themselves and pray and seek my face and turn from their wicked ways, then I will hear from heaven, and I will forgive their sin and will heal their land. 2 Chronicles 7:14

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#247337 - 02/06/04 Re: Where is Clay Harvey?
Trappertom Offline
Member

Registered: 01/07/04
Posts: 70
Loc: MN
Ken Howell, et al., Your answers make me sad. Now I have found there seems to be seamy-side to an otherwise talented word crafter: deftly weaving words while at the same time spinning a self-destructive and morally tragic web. What an epitaph for a potentially brilliant career: "He was able, but he fouled his own bed." Notwithstanding, his inimitable writing style remains among my favorites.
_________________________
God, grant me the senility to forget the guns I never liked, the good fortune to run into the ones I do, and the eyesight to know the difference.

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#247338 - 02/06/04 Re: Where is Clay Harvey?
allenday Offline
Campfire Guide

Registered: 04/28/03
Posts: 3052
Loc: Yamhill Co., OR
I thought that Clay was a good writer, but it was clear that he had very little real hunting experience of his own to base his assumptions on. He distilled much of his information from the experiences of others - mostly other writers. He bought into and passed along a great deal of misinformation as well, and many of his conclusions were ridiculous. Hunting experience always shows with any good writer of the subject, and I'm afraid Clay's inexperience was showcased for what it was much of the time.

He wrote about elk cartridges, for example, but I doubt that he'd ever taken one himself, and the one elk story he wrote about sounded like a fabrication to me, and I suspect the elk he posed with for the hero-photo was taken by someone else - not Clay Harvey.

ADay
_________________________
"The placing of the bullet is everything. The most powerful weapon made will not make up for lack of skill in marksmanship."

Colonel Townsend Whelen

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#247339 - 02/06/04 Re: Where is Clay Harvey?
Matthias Offline
Campfire Ranger

Registered: 08/28/03
Posts: 1670
Loc: Washington State
What a telling story of incompetence. Thanks for sharing, Ken.
_________________________
Proverbs 1:7 - The Fear of the Lord is the beginning of knowledge, but fools despise wisdom and discipline.

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#247340 - 02/06/04 Re: Where is Clay Harvey?
dogzapper Offline
Campfire Kahuna Emeritus &
Campfire Outfitter

Registered: 03/19/03
Posts: 7807
I have another Clay Harvey story. Few know it, but it really sheds a lot of light on the writing ethics of the man.

At the end of the Kimber ground squirrel hunt, Greg Warne, Clay and I had dinner together at one of Portland's snazziest restruants. Greg was one to spend all of his investor's money on fun, rather than put into the business, so you can imagine the spread.

Greg had a surprise for us. He had given Clay a .223 Super America earlier, probably on the expectation of good press. At the dinner, he gave Clay the first Kimber .17 Mach V, and asked him to do an article on the rifle and the cartridge. Clay said he would and that he would place it well.

At the same dinner, Greg gave me the second .17 Mach V and asked the same of me. I was new (on a totally freelance basis) at Wolfe. I promised to do my best, hoping sincerely that Al Miller would accept my beginners scribblings.

As an aside, I wrote for Wolfe Publishing for many years and was never asked to become a Contributing Editor. All of my articles were strictly on a freelance basis. It was for this reason, and the stupidity of a temporary and horrible editor (who I will not name) that I eventually signed on at Varmint Hunter. In my opinion, this was Wolfe's loss and the VHA's gain. Anyway, I digress.

A few days later, Ted Curtis (I love the man) and I were manning the tech phone at Kimber. Ted caught a call that got him to laughing so badly that he had to turn it over to me.

The caller was a South Carolina farmer with an accent that you had to hear to believe. Anyway, he bought a Kimber rifle from a short, fat guy at a gun show and it was a "Seventeen Mack Vee." He'd tried .17 Remington ammunition in it and "the bolt wouldn't close on the bullets." Duh.

Laughing, and trying not to wet myself, I informed him that the cartridge was a wildcat and that he couldn't buy factory ammo for it. This didn't please him much, but he knew of a fella in the next county who "stuffed bullets," so he guessed it would be OK.

About a month later, I got a call from Clay. He told me that he was just starting load development and wanted me to send all of my data to him. Even then, I was an ethical writer (some things are just natural to a few of us) and I told Clay that my data was hard earned; he should work up his own.

Of course, I knew that he had sold the rifle to the farmer and that, even if he had the rifle, he wasn't moxie enough to load the .17 Mach V successfully. Of course, the only Mach V data available at the time was in the P. O. Ackley Manual and it was silly, dangerous stuff.

By the end of the conversation, Clay was quite aware that my data would not be shared and that there was something quite wrong.

My article was published in Handloader #132 (March-April 1988) and I doubt that Clay ever published on the subject.

I ask you, what manner of man would accept a product, only to sell it a few days later? And what manner of man would ask for load data from another writer, so that he could copy it and cover his tracks?

Clay Harvey is the lowest-quality individual that it has ever been my displeasure to know.

Charles Askins, Jr. and his antics at Kimber comes close (that's another story for another day). In my opinion, Clay is the sole winner of the Writing Schmuck Award.

Steve
_________________________
"God Loves Each Of Us As If There Were Only One Of Us"
Saint Augustine of Hippo - AD 397

Steve's Blog: http://stevetimmcatholicfsblog.intuitwebsites.com/






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#247341 - 02/06/04 Re: Where is Clay Harvey?
Matthias Offline
Campfire Ranger

Registered: 08/28/03
Posts: 1670
Loc: Washington State
Thanks for sharing that one, as well...now excuse me while I open a new thread on Charles Askins, Jr.
_________________________
Proverbs 1:7 - The Fear of the Lord is the beginning of knowledge, but fools despise wisdom and discipline.

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#247342 - 02/07/04 Re: Where is Clay Harvey?
Mule Deer Offline
Campfire Oracle

Registered: 07/24/01
Posts: 37029
Loc: Banana Belt, Montana
Geez, now that the cat's out the bag, let me add another Clay Harvey story.

Last August I hunted in Botswana. My PH soon found I was a gun/hunting writer and we started bandying names back and forth. Turns out he once guided Clay Harvey in Zimbabwe--the big, 21-day hunt. Clay had along at least 6 rifles and two huge cartons of handloads, along with his wife and two daughters, the daughters not too long out of high school.

That first evening Clay got the two PH's aside and told them he "knew how professional hunters were," and warned them not to try to seduce his daughters. My guy was married and as gently as possible told Clay not to worry. The other guy wasn't married, however, and told Clay his daughters were way too ugly for any of that.

Clay never did get his Cape buffalo because he shot it with some reduced loads designed for something else. They never found the buff. In general he shot very poorly, and there was lots of tracking on thin blood trails.

He also complained about the Zimbabwean wine in camp, along with some of the food, so they charted a plane to bring in fancier food and a case of South African wine. Clay stiffed them for the wine, food and several animals he shot that got away wounded.

Oh, and from the dates my PH could remember, this took place just after Clay got caught selling the dozens of guns he'd "borrowed" from various manufacturers. So he bankrolled his big safari with stolen money.

JB

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#247343 - 02/08/04 Re: Where is Clay Harvey?
Boondock Offline
Member

Registered: 08/18/03
Posts: 16
Loc: B.C. Canada
Is this the same Clay Harvey that wrote "A Flash Of Red" ? If so I am highly dissapointed to hear that he is such a dipshit because I am a big fan of his novels.

Boondock

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#247344 - 02/10/04 Re: Where is Clay Harvey?
Joe Offline
Campfire Ranger

Registered: 11/26/03
Posts: 2008
Loc: Louisiana-U.S.A.
Well gosh!!
I guess, that because he seemed to admire about the same cartridges as I, and wrote in a humorous sort of way, I looked forward to his articals. I even bought a couple of his books.
Sorry to hear of his ---misadventures. I suppose that no profession is without it's "black sheep". Joe
_________________________
Joe


John said: "It takes a vivid imagination to slander the .30'06" I agree and will add that is doubly so for the 7x57!

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#247345 - 02/10/04 Re: Where is Clay Harvey?
catnthehat Offline
Campfire Guide

Registered: 12/19/03
Posts: 3163
Loc: Alberta
Clay Harvey is a dishonest man who casts a cloud over gunwriters in general. The problem is, not everyone realizes it!
On a happier note, Dogzapper, I read Varmint hunter whenever I can find it.
Catnthehat
_________________________
scopes are cool, but slings 'n' irons RULE!

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#6446199 - 04/26/12 Re: Where is Clay Harvey? [Re: dogzapper]
Siskiyous6 Offline
Campfire Tracker

Registered: 11/20/04
Posts: 6207
Loc: Del Norte County, State of Jef...
Originally Posted By: dogzapper
I have another Clay Harvey story. Few know it, but it really sheds a lot of light on the writing ethics of the man.

At the end of the Kimber ground squirrel hunt, Greg Warne, Clay and I had dinner together at one of Portland's snazziest restruants. Greg was one to spend all of his investor's money on fun, rather than put into the business, so you can imagine the spread.

Greg had a surprise for us. He had given Clay a .223 Super America earlier, probably on the expectation of good press. At the dinner, he gave Clay the first Kimber .17 Mach V, and asked him to do an article on the rifle and the cartridge. Clay said he would and that he would place it well.

At the same dinner, Greg gave me the second .17 Mach V and asked the same of me. I was new (on a totally freelance basis) at Wolfe. I promised to do my best, hoping sincerely that Al Miller would accept my beginners scribblings.

As an aside, I wrote for Wolfe Publishing for many years and was never asked to become a Contributing Editor. All of my articles were strictly on a freelance basis. It was for this reason, and the stupidity of a temporary and horrible editor (who I will not name) that I eventually signed on at Varmint Hunter. In my opinion, this was Wolfe's loss and the VHA's gain. Anyway, I digress.

A few days later, Ted Curtis (I love the man) and I were manning the tech phone at Kimber. Ted caught a call that got him to laughing so badly that he had to turn it over to me.

The caller was a South Carolina farmer with an accent that you had to hear to believe. Anyway, he bought a Kimber rifle from a short, fat guy at a gun show and it was a "Seventeen Mack Vee." He'd tried .17 Remington ammunition in it and "the bolt wouldn't close on the bullets." Duh.

Laughing, and trying not to wet myself, I informed him that the cartridge was a wildcat and that he couldn't buy factory ammo for it. This didn't please him much, but he knew of a fella in the next county who "stuffed bullets," so he guessed it would be OK.

About a month later, I got a call from Clay. He told me that he was just starting load development and wanted me to send all of my data to him. Even then, I was an ethical writer (some things are just natural to a few of us) and I told Clay that my data was hard earned; he should work up his own.

Of course, I knew that he had sold the rifle to the farmer and that, even if he had the rifle, he wasn't moxie enough to load the .17 Mach V successfully. Of course, the only Mach V data available at the time was in the P. O. Ackley Manual and it was silly, dangerous stuff.

By the end of the conversation, Clay was quite aware that my data would not be shared and that there was something quite wrong.

My article was published in Handloader #132 (March-April 1988) and I doubt that Clay ever published on the subject.

I ask you, what manner of man would accept a product, only to sell it a few days later? And what manner of man would ask for load data from another writer, so that he could copy it and cover his tracks?

Clay Harvey is the lowest-quality individual that it has ever been my displeasure to know.

Charles Askins, Jr. and his antics at Kimber comes close (that's another story for another day). In my opinion, Clay is the sole winner of the Writing Schmuck Award.

Steve


Sorry to revive such an old post, but I saw Askins at an NRA Annual Event talking to the SWAROVSKI people, trying to get them to hand him a new laser range finder. They were completely dismissive of him. When he walked away I asked if they knew who he was, and they said something like they knew him all right.

To see one of my heroes treated that way was rough - a couple decades later I now know that gun writers don't walk on water, but I still like to think some of them do. Ken Howell helps me keep this little fantasy alive.
_________________________
Ignorance is not confined to uneducated people.

RAND PAUL 2016!

WHO IS
JOHN GALT?


LIBERTY!











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#6446248 - 04/26/12 Re: Where is Clay Harvey? [Re: Siskiyous6]
djs Offline
Campfire Kahuna

Registered: 01/18/06
Posts: 18063
Loc: Virginia
I've heard from some gun company insiders that Charles Askins never returned a gun to a manufacturer after testing it, but he sure sold a lot of guns. I had lunch at the 1985 NRA Annual Meeting with a gun company executive and he confirmed this and said they'd been bitten by Askins too.

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#6446366 - 04/26/12 Re: Where is Clay Harvey? [Re: djs]
PJGunner Offline
Campfire Guide

Registered: 06/15/05
Posts: 3187
Loc: Tucson AZ
I remember an article by Harvey on the then new Ruger M77 RSI. IIRC, it was the 1985 Guns Illustrated and he'd stated that when he first saw the gun he "faunched" all over the place trying to get one. What in the hell is "faunch"? I do know that article made me want to get and finally I did. A .308 Win. and no it is not for sale.
Sure didn't realize was a thief and liar that man was.
I do know of one writer who was loaded the personal rifle of a syntetic stock maker. I was at the stock maker's plant dicussing the option of using one of his stocks that needed a bit of serious alteration to make it wok and commented on the write up by the write about the stock. He told me he'd been trying for months to get that rifle back but the writer kept putting him off. It's been a very long long time, about 24 years. I wonder if he ever got his gun back?
Paul B.


Edited by PJGunner (04/26/12)

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#6446439 - 04/26/12 Re: Where is Clay Harvey? [Re: PJGunner]
hatari Offline
Campfire Outfitter

Registered: 10/05/04
Posts: 9386
Loc: Atlanta
Glad this was revived, not necessarily to beat down Harvey (deserved) but to once again read a post by AllenDay. I enjoyed him here and am sorry he is no longer with us.
_________________________
"Hokey religions and ancient weapons are no match for a good blaster at your side, kid." - Han Solo

"Diana should forbid all first timers from fulling their wish lists. All hunters need something to remember and something to dream of." - Hatari 2011

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#6446634 - 04/26/12 Re: Where is Clay Harvey? [Re: PJGunner]
PastorDan Offline
Campfire Regular

Registered: 09/17/10
Posts: 1339
Loc: Cottonwood, AZ
I only read a few of Clay's articles and always had a bad feeling about him. In my mind he always came across as arrogant and bombastic.

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#6447265 - 04/27/12 Re: Where is Clay Harvey? [Re: PastorDan]
dogzapper Offline
Campfire Kahuna Emeritus &
Campfire Outfitter

Registered: 03/19/03
Posts: 7807




I believe that we all should have known that Clay Harvey was a total PHONY. Any writer, indeed any editor, who hides behind words that the common man does not know, or even pronounce, disqualifies himself from our adulation.

Indeed, there are those on every sporting web site, the 24HCF, who are posers. Big words, long words, do not proved education and learning, they simply show that some hide behind words.

I am privy to one of Clay Harvey's more horrible acts. Clay went on a deer hunt in one of the western states. He was armed with a H-K and loads of ammo. Before the wranglers could saddle up the horses and mules, Clay Harvey saw some does and fawns and blasted holes in some of them.

The wranglers went to my friend, who was the sales manager for one of Clay's sponsoring companies and asked, "What do we do with this crazy sonofabitch?"

The eventually killed the wounded, packed up Mr. Harvey and sent him back to the Land of Palmentos.

And I have no doubt that Clay Harvey wrote yet another article about hunting western game animals ... the mule deer, Odocoileus hemionus, as Clay Harvey would call them.

What a sad state of affairs.

Yeah, wasn't it great to read a few words of Allen Day's? I truly miss Allen. When Allen and I last talked, we discussed critters, some new kind of boots he was hot on and a copy of Tom Turpin's FABULOUS BOOK, Mastery of Wood & Metal.

Not a fortnight later, my great friend Tom Turpin sent me a copy of the book about David Miller, Curt Crum and the unreal rifles that they make together.

Apparently Allen called Tom and Tom did a nice signing ... and forwarded the book to me.

THANKS ALLEN, where-ever you are.

God Bless You Allen DAy,

Steve


_________________________
"God Loves Each Of Us As If There Were Only One Of Us"
Saint Augustine of Hippo - AD 397

Steve's Blog: http://stevetimmcatholicfsblog.intuitwebsites.com/






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#6448104 - 04/27/12 Re: Where is Clay Harvey? [Re: dogzapper]
hatari Offline
Campfire Outfitter

Registered: 10/05/04
Posts: 9386
Loc: Atlanta
Amen Steve!

If I have to throw the devil a bone, back in the mid '80's Harvey wrote a piece for G & A about the 6.5 Swede. It was good enough to get me to buy a mil surp swede and I've been hooked since.
_________________________
"Hokey religions and ancient weapons are no match for a good blaster at your side, kid." - Han Solo

"Diana should forbid all first timers from fulling their wish lists. All hunters need something to remember and something to dream of." - Hatari 2011

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