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In a thread about black bear cartriges Mule Deer raised the issue quoted below in response to someones .35 Whelen load. Since I also use R-15 it caught my attention and led me to ask, what the heck is going on here? When I read the statement that the previous poster was over by perhaps five grains I thought it was a typo. I've read a lot of JB's work and made use of a lot of his writing so I know that he knows his stuff. I checked the Alliant website and lo and behold it is now saying 54 grains is the max load with R-15 when it used to say 59.5 which agrees with my Modern Reloading, Second Edition . This is a huge difference in charge weight. Did R-15 change that much or was the previous pressure testing that bad? According to Modern Reloading the pressures were quite reasonable at 59.5 grains of R-15 and a 250 grain bullet in the Whelen. I've used probably five or six pounds of R-15 and this exact load in my Whelen and everything has seemed great. Do you think they changed R-15 and I've simply been using the old version?

Chuck


Originally Posted By: Mule Deer
Since you are a relatively new member, you have probably missed the discussions of how the traditional "pressure signs" aren't very accurate. Your load is WAY above what Nosler recommends (and they pressure tested it) for the .35 Whelen, by 5 grains. You may not be seeing any signs of high pressure, but your rifle is. The .35 Whelen is simply not capable of .338 Winchester muzzle velocities at normal pressures.





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I have been using RL-15 for some time in my Whelen's with 250 gr Speers, Partitions and Hornady RN's and the 225 gr Partition and TSX. I use Winchester brass and do have different maximums depending upon the bullet being used. With the 250's my max load for the Speer is less than that of the Hornady and the Partition is less than the Speer. My maximum load for the 225 gr Partition is less than that of the TSX. I have not noticed any change in the powder's characteristics over the years. I suspect that different firms may develop the Whelen loads to the maximum SAMMI pressure of the 30-06 while others may take them to the higher levels that other rounds based upon the same case are SAAMI rated at which is worth 5 kpsi or so IIRC. Muledeer would likely have a steer on this. I see this a lot with the 9.3x62 data too and my loads in that round do exceed almost all published loads but have proven quite safe for many years for me. From my testing using case measurement methods and a chronograph I find that the 250's can go 2450-2550 fps and the 225's can go 2600-2700 fps in my 22" Whelen barrels. Anything more is suspect IMO and no critetr will "know" the difference in that 100 fps.

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My 35 Whelen is a 250 Speer GS over 59 gr RE 15 for 2500 from my 22" barrel Whelen. I'll have to look back over my notes but I'm thinking in my rifle, 54 grains RE 15 would get me ~ 2300 ft/sec.


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That is strange for sure.

I followed Alliants data as a guide with the 250gr speers and loaded right up to alliant's listed max. When I switched to the 225gr TSX I used a chrono and just added poweder till I hit 2650 fps. Thats 62 gr RL 15 (22" rem classic).

I wonder what pressure Nosler's loads tested to?


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Yeah, I'm kind of confused. I've shot a lot of Reloder 15 through my Whelen with loads that were approved before but are now apparently considered to be over max. To me it has seemed to be the perfect powder - temperature tolerant, as accurate as any that I've tried and faster than any. Before I'd throttle bact to 54 grains and 2300 fps (which is what Alliant says on their website) I'd likely go back to using IMR-4064 and splitting the difference.


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60 R15 witth 225's is ove max now too?

Hmmm

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You have to consider the old Springfields and Winchester Model 95 leveraction rifles that have been rebored, rebarreled to 35 Whelen. The first Whelen I ever handled was a well worn Model 95. Also there is a heck of a variation in throat length in various rifles, mine is very long allowing me to use 59.0 grains of RL15 under the 250 grain Speer easily. I just work up the old fashioned way till I see pressure signs and back off two grains.


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I find this change from Alliant to be reprehensible. Wonder if some "fast" lots got out the door.?.
I could interpret this as telling me that I should no longer use their powder. I have no trouble returning to 4064. Screw 'em.


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I wonder if the Remington pump action rifles in 35 Whelen are part of the reason the max loads of RL15 were reduced.

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My Remingtom pump in 35 whelen has NO trouble handeling max loads. Even the old 59 grain load of RL15. This was putting me a bit over 2500 fps. Which I feel is an ideal range for the whelen. No problem with extraction. No signs of pressure.

I Think this it is a case of "Attorney CYA" on the part of the powder & bullet makers.

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I suspect the load changes are a matter of a switch from copper crusher to piezio electric measuring devices. A round such as the Whelen really doesn't demand the sort of load development that would require testing and re-testing for every manual put together by manufacturers. Old data hanging around too long is as likely an answer as any.

Then again, I have been wrong before. It may be a nefarious plot to keep me from buying that new Ruger.

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I'm more than a little miffed at this apparent lack of info. I note on Alliant's website that they are not giving pressures associated with that load. I'm guessing about 45-48,000 PSI.

Simply put - there can't be that much difference between older lots (older than 1 yr) and the newer lots. I have several Alliant guides and they show 59.5 gr as max at 48,400 PSI. I suspect the psi is actually CUP but that ain't what it says. If there is that much difference between then (2005) and now then they should have put out a bulletin. Either they were doing it wrong up until 2005 or they have backed way off for some reason.

As another anomaly, take a gander at the new Nosler manual for the 35 Whelen and 225 Partitions - 2800 ft/sec with several powders. That ain't gonna happen in my rifle...............

I don't buy the fast barrel/slow barrel argument much. Physics is physics and with SAAMI specs, we shouldn't see wide variations in standardized equipment on pressure or velocity.

In the end, I have a couple of sources of pressure tested data that says 59 gr of RE 15 under a cup and core 250 gr bullet is safe in the 35 Whelen. 2500 ft/sec has been the standard velocity in the 35 for more years than I've been alive. I'm sticking with it.


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"You have to consider the old Springfields and Winchester Model 95 leveraction rifles that have been rebored, rebarreled to 35 Whelen. The first Whelen I ever handled was a well worn Model 95."

Well, there are a lot more tired old .30-06 rifles than there are Whelens, and the published loads for the '06 can be snappy.

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Has anyone interested in this actually called Alliant? Sounds like a good way to figure it out to me...

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Originally Posted by pointer
Has anyone interested in this actually called Alliant? Sounds like a good way to figure it out to me...


Yes I have and the Tech Support guys answer was Uh, I think Speer is giving us the data now. So I asked him if the powder (RL15) had been changed at all since the last manual and he stated that it had not been changed. I also asked what method of presssure testing had been done and if that had been changed and he stated he did not know. Now I asked him what the maximum pressuer of the loads for the 35 Whelen in the new manual were and he stated he did not know. That ended the call.

As an aside I have just built a Whelen with a 20 inch tube that will just break 2500 fps at 59.5 Gr RL 15 with a Hornady 250 Gr round nose with sub .75 inch groups at 100 yds with no pressure signs. I have not, however, had time to test loads with any other bullet. BTW in my rifle 54 Gr RL 15 pushes the same bullet to 2190 fps.

I tried with alliant but still don't have any answers. Good luck guys. Bear


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Thanks for that info 4xbear. I'm watching this pretty close because I've got one that should be on the way soon. That's a pretty big difference and I'd like to know the reasons behind it.

Thanks again,

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I run 59 grs. of R-15 under 225 gr. AccuBonds, and I have shot some fantastic groups with an average muzzle velocity of a little over 2700 ft/sec through my 22� Whelen barrel. Incidentally, this load is listed in Nosler�s #6 reloading guide and it works for me. CP.

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JCM

No problem. The main goal here is to have good SAFE load data and I too am really scratching my head over this one. Bear


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4XBear, thanks for making the call. I had the phone in my hand to call when I decided to check this discussion first. This is interesting, 59.5 grains was said to be safe and many of us have been using that load. Now Alliant has reduced the load by a significant amount and they don't know why. I don't care for their communication but I like the powder.


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I was mostly reacting at first not to the exact charge the guy in quextion was using, but his muzzle velocity, close to 2700 fps with the Nosler Partition, which indicates WAY too warm a load for the .35 Whelen.

The Partition tends to create higher pressures than the Hornady Interlock of the same caliber and weight, mostly because of longer bearing surface but also because the Partition tends to "bump up" then the rear core is booted by expanding powder.

So I looked up Nosler's own data for the 250 Rl-15 in the .35 Whelen and found 53.0 grains as maximum, for a muzzle velocity of over 2500 fps. This is when I suggested the guy's load might be a little hot. It might not be with a Hornady Interlock.


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