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#2520530 - 10/23/08 12:39 PM Re: Reloder-15 and the .35 Whelen [Re: Big_Redhead]
HawkI Offline
Campfire 'Bwana

Registered: 06/10/07
Posts: 14104
Loc: The Hawkeye State
I recall the RL-15 Alliant data, which has been repeated in this cartridge, even using magnum primers at the 59.5 gr. charge; the late Finn Aagaard used it in Handloader. Of course, he hit the published VELOCITY for the 250 gr. bullet.

In two particular 35's I've toyed with, 56gr. of RL-15 has been max over 3 lots and 15-20 lbs of that powder with 5 diff 250 gr bullets.

One should also note RL-22 charges for the 338 Win.and all bullets listed in that manual. I have hit those speeds, but NEVER those charges!

Agree with JB (big shock) use your chronograph. If you are getting speeds not published in ANY manual, better put on a welding mask when you shoot....the last imprint may not be on cartridge brass.
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#2520534 - 10/23/08 12:40 PM Re: Reloder-15 and the .35 Whelen [Re: Mule Deer]
HawkI Offline
Campfire 'Bwana

Registered: 06/10/07
Posts: 14104
Loc: The Hawkeye State
Federal or Wby?


Edited by HawkI (10/23/08 12:41 PM)
_________________________
"I wouldn't ever set out to hurt anyone deliberately unless it was, you know, important - like a league game or something."
Dick Butkus

The turdlike songbird of our de-generation


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#2520834 - 10/23/08 03:33 PM Re: Reloder-15 and the .35 Whelen [Re: HawkI]
300WinMag Offline
Campfire Regular

Registered: 01/02/05
Posts: 1079
I just purchased a 35 whelen in 700 CDL, 5 pounds of RL-15, and a bunch of 250 gr boolits, so I'm quite interested in this discussion. I found a link to the 2005 alliant data for 35 whelen on Steve's pages (http://stevespages.com/zip/alliant_reloading_manual.zip)
if anyone cares to look.

I suppose I'll work up as normal, but start a little lower than I might've with the older data. Once I find a sweet spot with powder weight I'll start tweaking OAL.

The same thing happened with my 300win data from Barnes 3 to 4. Barnes 4 would make me 3 grains over max with RL-22 but no pressure signs are evident.

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#2523787 - 10/24/08 04:10 PM Re: Reloder-15 and the .35 Whelen [Re: 300WinMag]
PJGunner Offline
Campfire Guide

Registered: 06/14/05
Posts: 2885
Loc: Tucson AZ
I'm wondering? Remington not too long ago brought out the M750 semiautomatic rifle in .35 Whelen. Could the "downloading" be to make loads that won't beat that rifle up?
heck, remington 250 gr. bullet ammo has never come anywhere near the advertised velocity in my three rifles. The two factory guns, one Remington 700 Classic and one Ruger M77 RS will only barely reach 2250 FPS and my custom Mauser about 2325 FPS with Remington's factory loads.
I've never been able to reach Alliant's 59.5 gtr. charge of RL-15 either.
OH well. I just loaded up a test series with RL-15 and the 225 gr. Barnes TSX. I haven't had a chance to shoot them yet, but hopefully sometime this week end.
Paul B.

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#2523821 - 10/24/08 04:24 PM Re: Reloder-15 and the .35 Whelen [Re: PJGunner]
Sakoluvr Online   content
Campfire Tracker

Registered: 01/08/05
Posts: 6101
Loc: Where the wild things are.
PJ, how many grains did you load up to? Post your results when you get a chance to shoot.
_________________________
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#2523940 - 10/24/08 05:24 PM Re: Reloder-15 and the .35 Whelen [Re: HawkI]
CZ550 Offline
Campfire Regular

Registered: 05/11/08
Posts: 819
Loc: Kawartha Lakes, Ontario, Canad...
 Originally Posted By: HawkI
I recall the RL-15 Alliant data, which has been repeated in this cartridge, even using magnum primers at the 59.5 gr. charge; the late Finn Aagaard used it in Handloader. Of course, he hit the published VELOCITY for the 250 gr. bullet.

In two particular 35's I've toyed with, 56gr. of RL-15 has been max over 3 lots and 15-20 lbs of that powder with 5 diff 250 gr bullets.

One should also note RL-22 charges for the 338 Win.and all bullets listed in that manual. I have hit those speeds, but NEVER those charges!

Agree with JB (big shock) use your chronograph. If you are getting speeds not published in ANY manual, better put on a welding mask when you shoot....the last imprint may not be on cartridge brass.


Actually, Aagaard wrote in HANDLOADER, No. 184 (December/'96) for the first time on the 35 Whelen in an article entitled "Medium Bores/.338-06 vs. .35 Whelen".

In it, 5 loads were tested at 3.29" using RL-15: 225 Sierra BT (61grs) at 2719 fps; 225 NP (60grs) at 2715 fps; 225 Barnes X (60grs)at 2690 fps; 250 NP (59.5grs)at 2600 fps; and 250 Barnes X (59grs)at 2602 fps, all from his 22" built on a 98 Mauser action. His comment re pressure was: "I used no charges in excess of those found in a loading manual, nor did I tolerate the slightest hint of excess pressure...". 3 other loads were referenced: a 200gr Rem handload using XMR 2015 and 2 factory loads.

In a later HANDLOADER, No.199, he compared the 35 Whelen (along with other cartridges)to the 9.3X62 in penetration tests. The 250gr NP was toned down in that contest to 2504 fps but the load was not given.

Also, Layne Simpson in Rifle, No. 105, gave a comparison between the .338-06 and the .35 Whelen. His Whelen was a custom 22". The 250 NP was not in production, nor was RL-15 at the time. But one of his loads for the 250 Speer, using N-204 (65grs,)was MOA and MV was 2648 fps! \:o I've duplicated that with my 35 Whelen, employing the 250 Hor. SP and RL-15. But it couldn't be done using the 250 NP. The best the NP could do with RL-15 was 2500 fps. \:\(


Edited by CZ550 (10/24/08 05:44 PM)
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#2525827 - 10/25/08 01:54 PM Re: Reloder-15 and the .35 Whelen [Re: Mule Deer]
Fraser Offline
Campfire Regular

Registered: 07/18/01
Posts: 590
Loc: Deep River
 Originally Posted By: Mule Deer
I was mostly reacting at first not to the exact charge the guy in quextion was using, but his muzzle velocity, close to 2700 fps with the Nosler Partition, which indicates WAY too warm a load for the .35 Whelen.

The Partition tends to create higher pressures than the Hornady Interlock of the same caliber and weight, mostly because of longer bearing surface but also because the Partition tends to "bump up" then the rear core is booted by expanding powder.

So I looked up Nosler's own data for the 250 Rl-15 in the .35 Whelen and found 53.0 grains as maximum, for a muzzle velocity of over 2500 fps. This is when I suggested the guy's load might be a little hot. It might not be with a Hornady Interlock.


Thanks for the clarification. What you're saying makes a lot of sense. I also use a chronograph as a diagnostic tool and I'd agree that there is no such thing as "free" velocity. I've never had a 250 grain .35 Whelen load hit 2600 fps and I've only used Hornady or Speer 250 grain bullets. With my "medium-medium" .35 Whelen launching a 250 grain bullet a 2550 fps or so I can't imagine what more I'd want from it.
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#2526465 - 10/25/08 10:18 PM Re: Reloder-15 and the .35 Whelen [Re: Fraser]
tj3006 Offline
Campfire Regular

Registered: 02/19/07
Posts: 913
I have a bunch of 250 grain Speers loaded over the 59 grain chg of RL-15. My custom mauser sems to like the load.
That being said, I think I will only shoot it in cool weather, and when the batch I have is done, I will see how much velocity a 57 grain load will give me.
I get just under 2600 FPS with the 59 grains.
...tj3006

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#2526866 - 10/26/08 07:48 AM Re: Reloder-15 and the .35 Whelen [Re: tj3006]
Mule Deer Offline
Campfire Oracle

Registered: 07/24/01
Posts: 31892
Loc: Banana Belt, Montana
57 grains should get around 2500.

We can usually predict what velocity a minor change in powder charge will bring by dividing the "new" charge by the old charge, then multiplying the original velocity with the result. Thus 57/59 = .996 x 2590 ("almost" 2600) = 2502.

This formula works very closely with single-based powders, not quite as well with double-based. But it is generally pretty close with minor charge variations.

One thing that may be going on is that all powders do vary somewhat from lot to lot. I went down to Charlie Sisk's shop in Texas a few years ago and we ran a bunch of pressure/velocity tests. One of the rifles we used was my CZ 9.3x62, and we tested some of the loads I normally use. At that time one of these was 62 grains of RL-15 and the 250-grain Nosler Ballistic Tip (now the 250 AccuBond). Everything was identical in the load we tested, except Charlie's lot of RL-15. It took two more grain of powder to equal the velocity I got with my batch of RL-15.

This sort of lot-to-lot variation isn't uncommon. Add that to using a different bullet that might very well create different pressures, and it's no wonder that sometimes data can vary 5 grains or more between different sources of data.

We did confirm, though, that velocity is the best predictor of pressure for the average handloader.
_________________________
John

The ultimate concern of a rifle loony is rifle trivia. And why not? What else is as distracting from the really important concerns of everyday life?

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#2527203 - 10/26/08 10:21 AM Re: Reloder-15 and the .35 Whelen [Re: Mule Deer]
KDK Offline
Campfire Tracker

Registered: 02/08/05
Posts: 5879
Loc: home in OR!
 Originally Posted By: Mule Deer
57 grains should get around 2500.

We can usually predict what velocity a minor change in powder charge will bring by dividing the "new" charge by the old charge, then multiplying the original velocity with the result. Thus 57/59 = .996 x 2590 ("almost" 2600) = 2502.

This formula works very closely with single-based powders, not quite as well with double-based. But it is generally pretty close with minor charge variations.

One thing that may be going on is that all powders do vary somewhat from lot to lot. I went down to Charlie Sisk's shop in Texas a few years ago and we ran a bunch of pressure/velocity tests. One of the rifles we used was my CZ 9.3x62, and we tested some of the loads I normally use. At that time one of these was 62 grains of RL-15 and the 250-grain Nosler Ballistic Tip (now the 250 AccuBond). Everything was identical in the load we tested, except Charlie's lot of RL-15. It took two more grain of powder to equal the velocity I got with my batch of RL-15.

This sort of lot-to-lot variation isn't uncommon. Add that to using a different bullet that might very well create different pressures, and it's no wonder that sometimes data can vary 5 grains or more between different sources of data.

We did confirm, though, that velocity is the best predictor of pressure for the average handloader.


Did you use the same chrono, or did you use Mr. Sisk's? I am assuming (I know, I know) that there is a difference, minor though it may be, in different clocks.
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