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#2519592 - 10/23/08 Re: Reloder-15 and the .35 Whelen [Re: Sakoluvr]
Big_Redhead Offline
Campfire Tracker

Registered: 12/21/03
Posts: 5950
Loc: Michigan
 Originally Posted By: Sakoluvr
Have you guys seen this data?


Uh, I just looked at the data you reference. I consider it way over maximum and the man's loading practices ill-conceived. I advise everyone reading this to steer very clear of thhis data.

Here is a note that appears next to one of the loads on the site:

"near top load
significant case head expansion (.511/.531) but no ejector slot imprint yet"

From this note it is obvious that this man has no clue of the definition of "case head expansion." The 0.020" of expansion he experienced is probably measured on the pressure ring of the case body, not the head. True case head expansion of 0.020" would indicate astronomical pressure. According to the Speer reloading manual #13, actual case head expansion of 0.0003" to 0.0005" in once-fired cases indicates pressure in the neighborhood of 60,000 PSI. Yes, my decimal places are in the correct positions.

And then we have the statement, "but no ejector slot imprint yet." An imprint of the ejector slot in the headstamp of a case indicates the brass is flowing back into the slot due to astronomical pressure. If the man typically adds powder to his loads until he sees this imprint, he is flirting with disaster - even death. Just because it is easy for handloaders to overload their ammo does not make it wise.

-
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#2520088 - 10/23/08 Re: Reloder-15 and the .35 Whelen [Re: Big_Redhead]
Mule Deer Online   content
Campfire Oracle

Registered: 07/24/01
Posts: 36993
Loc: Banana Belt, Montana
Actually, with one make of belted brass I have seen .020" of case expansion on the belt with FACTORY loads. This brass is obviously a lot softer than some others, but it held up fine.

This is also why the case-head method of pressure-guessing is kind of insane, especially given that most of us have a far better tool for the job these days, namely the chronograph.
_________________________
John

"Gunwriters, as you know, aren't as informed as their readers are and if it wasn't for the readers, there would be no need for writers..."--Shrapnel, May 2015

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#2520103 - 10/23/08 Re: Reloder-15 and the .35 Whelen [Re: Mule Deer]
Sakoluvr Offline
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Registered: 01/08/05
Posts: 6923
Loc: Where the wild things are.
John, have you any plans on doing an article on the .350 mag, similar to the one you did on the .358 Win?
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After the game is over, the king and the pawn go into the same box.
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#2520117 - 10/23/08 Re: Reloder-15 and the .35 Whelen [Re: Big_Redhead]
4xbear Offline
Campfire Guide

Registered: 04/09/07
Posts: 3868
Loc: Occupied California
I have seen that guys data before and would not even consider it safe if fired in the next county. He seems to think that if some is good more is better and too much is just enough! Be careful out there. BTW your decimal points ARE in the correct place. \:\) Bear
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Life is what happens to you as you are making other plans.

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#2520122 - 10/23/08 Re: Reloder-15 and the .35 Whelen [Re: Mule Deer]
4xbear Offline
Campfire Guide

Registered: 04/09/07
Posts: 3868
Loc: Occupied California
 Originally Posted By: Mule Deer
Actually, with one make of belted brass I have seen .020" of case expansion on the belt with FACTORY loads. This brass is obviously a lot softer than some others, but it held up fine.

This is also why the case-head method of pressure-guessing is kind of insane, especially given that most of us have a far better tool for the job these days, namely the chronograph.


Good Morning John. I agree. With out a chronograph I just don't know what I would do. They are the greatest thing sine sliced bread. Bear
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Bear

Life is what happens to you as you are making other plans.

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#2520474 - 10/23/08 Re: Reloder-15 and the .35 Whelen [Re: Mule Deer]
Big_Redhead Offline
Campfire Tracker

Registered: 12/21/03
Posts: 5950
Loc: Michigan
 Originally Posted By: Mule Deer
Actually, with one make of belted brass I have seen .020" of case expansion on the belt with FACTORY loads. This brass is obviously a lot softer than some others, but it held up fine.


It is true that case heads expand more on the first firing than on subsequent firings at the same pressure, and belted case heads tend to expand more than non-belted case heads. It also appears to be true that some people don't understand how or where to measure case head expansion, and given the knowledge to do so may lack the dexterity.

The truth is that 0.020" of actual case head expansion, correctly measured, on once-fired brass, is indicative of a problem, and most likely extremely high pressure.

-
_________________________
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Harrumph!!!
I often use quick reply. My posts are not directed toward any specific person unless I mention them by name.

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#2520530 - 10/23/08 Re: Reloder-15 and the .35 Whelen [Re: Big_Redhead]
HawkI Offline
Campfire Kahuna

Registered: 06/10/07
Posts: 16056
Loc: The Hawkeye State
I recall the RL-15 Alliant data, which has been repeated in this cartridge, even using magnum primers at the 59.5 gr. charge; the late Finn Aagaard used it in Handloader. Of course, he hit the published VELOCITY for the 250 gr. bullet.

In two particular 35's I've toyed with, 56gr. of RL-15 has been max over 3 lots and 15-20 lbs of that powder with 5 diff 250 gr bullets.

One should also note RL-22 charges for the 338 Win.and all bullets listed in that manual. I have hit those speeds, but NEVER those charges!

Agree with JB (big shock) use your chronograph. If you are getting speeds not published in ANY manual, better put on a welding mask when you shoot....the last imprint may not be on cartridge brass.
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#2520534 - 10/23/08 Re: Reloder-15 and the .35 Whelen [Re: Mule Deer]
HawkI Offline
Campfire Kahuna

Registered: 06/10/07
Posts: 16056
Loc: The Hawkeye State
Federal or Wby?


Edited by HawkI (10/23/08)
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#2520834 - 10/23/08 Re: Reloder-15 and the .35 Whelen [Re: HawkI]
300WinMag Offline
Campfire Regular

Registered: 01/02/05
Posts: 1080
I just purchased a 35 whelen in 700 CDL, 5 pounds of RL-15, and a bunch of 250 gr boolits, so I'm quite interested in this discussion. I found a link to the 2005 alliant data for 35 whelen on Steve's pages (http://stevespages.com/zip/alliant_reloading_manual.zip)
if anyone cares to look.

I suppose I'll work up as normal, but start a little lower than I might've with the older data. Once I find a sweet spot with powder weight I'll start tweaking OAL.

The same thing happened with my 300win data from Barnes 3 to 4. Barnes 4 would make me 3 grains over max with RL-22 but no pressure signs are evident.

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#2523787 - 10/24/08 Re: Reloder-15 and the .35 Whelen [Re: 300WinMag]
PJGunner Offline
Campfire Guide

Registered: 06/15/05
Posts: 3181
Loc: Tucson AZ
I'm wondering? Remington not too long ago brought out the M750 semiautomatic rifle in .35 Whelen. Could the "downloading" be to make loads that won't beat that rifle up?
heck, remington 250 gr. bullet ammo has never come anywhere near the advertised velocity in my three rifles. The two factory guns, one Remington 700 Classic and one Ruger M77 RS will only barely reach 2250 FPS and my custom Mauser about 2325 FPS with Remington's factory loads.
I've never been able to reach Alliant's 59.5 gtr. charge of RL-15 either.
OH well. I just loaded up a test series with RL-15 and the 225 gr. Barnes TSX. I haven't had a chance to shoot them yet, but hopefully sometime this week end.
Paul B.

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#2523821 - 10/24/08 Re: Reloder-15 and the .35 Whelen [Re: PJGunner]
Sakoluvr Offline
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Registered: 01/08/05
Posts: 6923
Loc: Where the wild things are.
PJ, how many grains did you load up to? Post your results when you get a chance to shoot.
_________________________
Peace be still! Don't ever forget who is in the boat with us.

After the game is over, the king and the pawn go into the same box.
Italian Proverb


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#2523940 - 10/25/08 Re: Reloder-15 and the .35 Whelen [Re: HawkI]
CZ550 Offline
Campfire Regular

Registered: 05/12/08
Posts: 865
Loc: Kawartha Lakes, Ontario, Canad...
 Originally Posted By: HawkI
I recall the RL-15 Alliant data, which has been repeated in this cartridge, even using magnum primers at the 59.5 gr. charge; the late Finn Aagaard used it in Handloader. Of course, he hit the published VELOCITY for the 250 gr. bullet.

In two particular 35's I've toyed with, 56gr. of RL-15 has been max over 3 lots and 15-20 lbs of that powder with 5 diff 250 gr bullets.

One should also note RL-22 charges for the 338 Win.and all bullets listed in that manual. I have hit those speeds, but NEVER those charges!

Agree with JB (big shock) use your chronograph. If you are getting speeds not published in ANY manual, better put on a welding mask when you shoot....the last imprint may not be on cartridge brass.


Actually, Aagaard wrote in HANDLOADER, No. 184 (December/'96) for the first time on the 35 Whelen in an article entitled "Medium Bores/.338-06 vs. .35 Whelen".

In it, 5 loads were tested at 3.29" using RL-15: 225 Sierra BT (61grs) at 2719 fps; 225 NP (60grs) at 2715 fps; 225 Barnes X (60grs)at 2690 fps; 250 NP (59.5grs)at 2600 fps; and 250 Barnes X (59grs)at 2602 fps, all from his 22" built on a 98 Mauser action. His comment re pressure was: "I used no charges in excess of those found in a loading manual, nor did I tolerate the slightest hint of excess pressure...". 3 other loads were referenced: a 200gr Rem handload using XMR 2015 and 2 factory loads.

In a later HANDLOADER, No.199, he compared the 35 Whelen (along with other cartridges)to the 9.3X62 in penetration tests. The 250gr NP was toned down in that contest to 2504 fps but the load was not given.

Also, Layne Simpson in Rifle, No. 105, gave a comparison between the .338-06 and the .35 Whelen. His Whelen was a custom 22". The 250 NP was not in production, nor was RL-15 at the time. But one of his loads for the 250 Speer, using N-204 (65grs,)was MOA and MV was 2648 fps! \:o I've duplicated that with my 35 Whelen, employing the 250 Hor. SP and RL-15. But it couldn't be done using the 250 NP. The best the NP could do with RL-15 was 2500 fps. \:\(


Edited by CZ550 (10/25/08)
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#2525827 - 10/25/08 Re: Reloder-15 and the .35 Whelen [Re: Mule Deer]
Fraser Offline
Campfire Regular

Registered: 07/18/01
Posts: 628
Loc: Deep River
 Originally Posted By: Mule Deer
I was mostly reacting at first not to the exact charge the guy in quextion was using, but his muzzle velocity, close to 2700 fps with the Nosler Partition, which indicates WAY too warm a load for the .35 Whelen.

The Partition tends to create higher pressures than the Hornady Interlock of the same caliber and weight, mostly because of longer bearing surface but also because the Partition tends to "bump up" then the rear core is booted by expanding powder.

So I looked up Nosler's own data for the 250 Rl-15 in the .35 Whelen and found 53.0 grains as maximum, for a muzzle velocity of over 2500 fps. This is when I suggested the guy's load might be a little hot. It might not be with a Hornady Interlock.


Thanks for the clarification. What you're saying makes a lot of sense. I also use a chronograph as a diagnostic tool and I'd agree that there is no such thing as "free" velocity. I've never had a 250 grain .35 Whelen load hit 2600 fps and I've only used Hornady or Speer 250 grain bullets. With my "medium-medium" .35 Whelen launching a 250 grain bullet a 2550 fps or so I can't imagine what more I'd want from it.
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#2526465 - 10/26/08 Re: Reloder-15 and the .35 Whelen [Re: Fraser]
tj3006 Offline
Campfire Regular

Registered: 02/20/07
Posts: 918
I have a bunch of 250 grain Speers loaded over the 59 grain chg of RL-15. My custom mauser sems to like the load.
That being said, I think I will only shoot it in cool weather, and when the batch I have is done, I will see how much velocity a 57 grain load will give me.
I get just under 2600 FPS with the 59 grains.
...tj3006

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#2526866 - 10/26/08 Re: Reloder-15 and the .35 Whelen [Re: tj3006]
Mule Deer Online   content
Campfire Oracle

Registered: 07/24/01
Posts: 36993
Loc: Banana Belt, Montana
57 grains should get around 2500.

We can usually predict what velocity a minor change in powder charge will bring by dividing the "new" charge by the old charge, then multiplying the original velocity with the result. Thus 57/59 = .996 x 2590 ("almost" 2600) = 2502.

This formula works very closely with single-based powders, not quite as well with double-based. But it is generally pretty close with minor charge variations.

One thing that may be going on is that all powders do vary somewhat from lot to lot. I went down to Charlie Sisk's shop in Texas a few years ago and we ran a bunch of pressure/velocity tests. One of the rifles we used was my CZ 9.3x62, and we tested some of the loads I normally use. At that time one of these was 62 grains of RL-15 and the 250-grain Nosler Ballistic Tip (now the 250 AccuBond). Everything was identical in the load we tested, except Charlie's lot of RL-15. It took two more grain of powder to equal the velocity I got with my batch of RL-15.

This sort of lot-to-lot variation isn't uncommon. Add that to using a different bullet that might very well create different pressures, and it's no wonder that sometimes data can vary 5 grains or more between different sources of data.

We did confirm, though, that velocity is the best predictor of pressure for the average handloader.
_________________________
John

"Gunwriters, as you know, aren't as informed as their readers are and if it wasn't for the readers, there would be no need for writers..."--Shrapnel, May 2015

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#2527203 - 10/26/08 Re: Reloder-15 and the .35 Whelen [Re: Mule Deer]
KDK Offline
Campfire Tracker

Registered: 02/09/05
Posts: 6247
Loc: home in OR!
 Originally Posted By: Mule Deer
57 grains should get around 2500.

We can usually predict what velocity a minor change in powder charge will bring by dividing the "new" charge by the old charge, then multiplying the original velocity with the result. Thus 57/59 = .996 x 2590 ("almost" 2600) = 2502.

This formula works very closely with single-based powders, not quite as well with double-based. But it is generally pretty close with minor charge variations.

One thing that may be going on is that all powders do vary somewhat from lot to lot. I went down to Charlie Sisk's shop in Texas a few years ago and we ran a bunch of pressure/velocity tests. One of the rifles we used was my CZ 9.3x62, and we tested some of the loads I normally use. At that time one of these was 62 grains of RL-15 and the 250-grain Nosler Ballistic Tip (now the 250 AccuBond). Everything was identical in the load we tested, except Charlie's lot of RL-15. It took two more grain of powder to equal the velocity I got with my batch of RL-15.

This sort of lot-to-lot variation isn't uncommon. Add that to using a different bullet that might very well create different pressures, and it's no wonder that sometimes data can vary 5 grains or more between different sources of data.

We did confirm, though, that velocity is the best predictor of pressure for the average handloader.


Did you use the same chrono, or did you use Mr. Sisk's? I am assuming (I know, I know) that there is a difference, minor though it may be, in different clocks.
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#2527258 - 10/26/08 Re: Reloder-15 and the .35 Whelen [Re: Mule Deer]
WJU Offline
Campfire Regular

Registered: 05/23/02
Posts: 400
Loc: Wexford ,PA
 Originally Posted By: Mule Deer
57 grains should get around 2500.



We did confirm, though, that velocity is the best predictor of pressure for the average handloader.


I would love to see a article written around these lines. Showing variations that can & do occur in manuals vs what individual rifles are like in the real world.

For my part, I load 250 grain bullets in my 35 whelens and adujust the charge until I get to or around 2500 fps. It has worked great in both of my custom mauser & my bone stock Remington 7600. My load using 250 grain speers is 57 grains RL 15 in my mauser. Never tried working up a load for the Hot Cors in my Remington yet. After I go through all of my Hornady 250 grain round nose bullets I suspect I will.

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#2528263 - 10/27/08 Re: Reloder-15 and the .35 Whelen [Re: WJU]
taz4570 Offline
Campfire Guide

Registered: 01/11/06
Posts: 3356
Loc: Colorado
I've always used a charge of 58.5 grains of Re 15 under the Hornady 250 grain Spire Point. Never noticed a problem, until I stared using a new 5 lb keg. Compared the new loads with a few of the old lot of Re15 and saw definite pressure indications with new stuff. Ejector marks were obvious on cases loaded with the new powder, but nothing on the old. I'll be backing off a grain or grain or two if I buy another box or two of the Horns.

Right now I'm loading the 250 grain Nosler Partition on top of 55 grains of Re 15. I know it is 2 grains over the book max, but the velocity is below the book (about 2460) and I see no sign of pressure either on the cases or by recoil level as compared to the Horn load. I'll probably use this load for elk in couple of weeks.
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#2528287 - 10/27/08 Re: Reloder-15 and the .35 Whelen [Re: taz4570]
eastplace Offline
Campfire Regular

Registered: 06/01/08
Posts: 384
Loc: colorado
That load will work great for elk. I just clobbered a big cow elk head on into the chest with a 250 speer HC at 50 yards. She turned and fell. The bullet did loose it's core ( your NP shouldn't) but it wasn't until it was about to come to rest under the hide.
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#2528918 - 10/27/08 Re: Reloder-15 and the .35 Whelen [Re: eastplace]
zxc Offline
Campfire Ranger

Registered: 07/03/06
Posts: 2324
Loc: Central British Columbia
i have tried RL 15 in my whelen but have had a better experience with Varget. Top load of 55gr yields 2300 fps in my rifle with a 250FXB... 61gr gets 2684fps.... the load I have been using since 1996. because of the substantial freebore, 0.110", i have a rifle /case combination that has an 11% greater effective volume than a minimum standard set up. This is still a stiff load but exhibit no traditional pressure signs, speed is not one because of the increased effective volume

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#2529283 - 10/27/08 Re: Reloder-15 and the .35 Whelen [Re: taz4570]
bwinters Offline
Campfire Guide

Registered: 02/24/03
Posts: 4835
Loc: Smoky Mountains, TN
To me, loading for the Whelen is fairly simple. If you're using medium speed powders (Varget, RE 15, 4064), you can get 2450-2500 ft/sec with just about any cup and core bullet at ~ 60,000 Psi. The case won't hold enough slower powder (4350's) to build enough pressure to approach 2500.

I tend to look at the relationship between known pressure, powder speed, and velocity when developing loads. For my 35 Whelen, I stopped at 2500 ft/sec when doing load development using 250's. If I needed a grain or two to each 2500, so be it. I've been doing it that way since I bought a chronograph and was pointed in that direction by JB a while back.
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#2543440 - 11/02/08 Re: Reloder-15 and the .35 Whelen [Re: bwinters]
Reloder28 Offline
Campfire Outfitter

Registered: 03/09/06
Posts: 9828
Loc: Deer Park, Tx
In a much improved 35 Whelen case my load was 65 grains RL 15 with 225 grain Noslers and it would do 2670 from my 15" barrel. 3 shot 1/4" groups were common.
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#2682128 - 12/29/08 Re: Reloder-15 and the .35 Whelen [Re: Reloder28]
Whelen_B Offline
Member

Registered: 06/16/08
Posts: 123
I just joined your 24hourcampfire forum this past week. I was a little suprised to find I'm not exactly the "toast of the town" here. I use ReL15 in my 35Whelens. But I feel the need to clarify a few things about my personal page - http://www.35cal.com/loading.html
 Quote:
Uh, I just looked at the data you reference. I consider it way over maximum and the man's loading practices ill-conceived. I advise everyone reading this to steer very clear of thhis data.

Ok - some over published max - but take some time to read the text not just the tables throughout the page referenced. I'm not a dangerous dim wit. Experimental reloading (load development) has been my hobby for almost two decades now. I'm fixated on 35s though I also load for other calibres. In the early days I had a few primers fall out upon opening an action (excessive pressures) and a few sticky bolt lifts. Beyond that I have had no unscheduled moments of extreme excitment related to over inflated brass, breeches or barrels. I hope the trend continues.
 Quote:
...The 0.020" of expansion he experienced is probably measured on the pressure ring of the case body, not the head. True case head expansion of 0.020" would indicate astronomical pressure.

Yep it would if it happened. But to clarify - the (.511/.531) is not a before and after measurement at all. But rather a measurement taken on the case body immediately ahead of the belt (.511) and another taken on the belt immediately ahead of the extractor groove(.531) after firing the round. In other words, at the range I simply noted down after firing a test round its diameter at two points on the case. I keep my micrometer beside me when shooting often. I often mic cases as they go into the breech and then when they come out - I measure any difference just ahead of the extractor slot primarily.

 Quote:
And then we have the statement, "but no ejector slot imprint yet." An imprint of the ejector slot in the headstamp of a case indicates the brass is flowing back into the slot due to astronomical pressure. If the man typically adds powder to his loads until he sees this imprint, he is flirting with disaster - even death.


How else does one say that there is no ejector slot imprint observed when the fired case is examined other than just say it (mauser type slot in this case). It's instructional to note that sometimes elevated pressures can be noted by one indicator and not another. No I did not shovel in more powder in this case precisely BECAUSE the case head was indicating an unacceptable level of expansion to me.

Lastly my "Loading page" does not present load data in the usual sense anyway - but simply range results with my personal comments to self. They are load notes and observations - warts and all. Some loads are well over max according to some published sources. Yes I know - I ought not. But I do not "recommend" them to any one - see my disclaimer. Going public with my load development notes on this page has sometimes been misunderstood though I try to be clear.

Any who - I'm thru.
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#2682288 - 12/29/08 Re: Reloder-15 and the .35 Whelen [Re: Whelen_B]
Sakoluvr Offline
Campfire Tracker

Registered: 01/08/05
Posts: 6923
Loc: Where the wild things are.
Whelen B- what the hell took you so long to join the fire? Welcome, and keep the data flowing!

My .350 Rem Mag load (from your site) of 60.0 gr of R15 under a 225 gr Woodleigh has been a steady diet in my Mod 7. Accuracy is superb.

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After the game is over, the king and the pawn go into the same box.
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