Well, reading 31 pages of the 257 Weatherby thread was good fun, so I thought I might ask this question:
It's 1958. If you handload, there's not much out there except the Nosler Partition, the Western Tool and Copper Works, Barnes, and a few others I'm forgetting. Suffice it say, super bullets are limited in supply.
More than that, powders aren't what they are today in terms of temperature stability, burning rate and availability. Some of the classics exist, and more than enough to get the job done, but the Golden Age of powders lies in the future.
You want an all around rifle for hunting "the West," whatever that means What do you pick? If you were alive then, what did you pick?
"The Church can and should help modern society by tirelessly insisting that the work of women in the home be recognized and respected by all in its irreplaceable value." Apostolic Exhortation On The Family, Pope John Paul II
More than a few shot 7mm X 61mm Sharpe and Hart. So much so that it lead to the 7mm Remington Mag, My guess the 7mm Mashburn was around a bit too. But my guess, is that the .30-06 and the 270 ruled the roost. Pretty much like they do today.
"Any idiot can face a crisis,it's the day-to-day living that wears you out."
Good choices all, but why? Those choices today are often justified by the availability of super bullets, particularly the 270 Winchester. I chose the 338 mainly because in 1958 one could get both Partitions and the heavier WTC works and Speer bullets.
Given bullet technology in 1958, was the 270 a viable all around rifle? Even for the occasional grizzly inevitably encountered when Elk hunting
By 1958 Hornady, Sierra, and Speer were all in business. Winchester and Remington both sold component bullets although they were sometimes hard to find. IMR4320,4350,4064,H4895 and H4831 plus others covered most rifle powder needs and still do. M-70's, Rem721's, FN's, Husqvarnas, Sporterized military rifles in 30-06 or .270Win took care of any reasonable hunting need. Redfield, Weaver, Lyman and Leupold built good hunting scopes.I was only eleven years old in 1958 but I remember a distinct case of lust for a sporterized 1903 Springfield I saw in a Jack O'Connor article. I don't see that riflewise things have improved all that much.
Well this is easy the .300 Wby since it came out in 1945 it would have been around for 13 years, just go down to any sporting good store grab some 300 H&H go hunting and you have some fired formed brass.
Shrapnel: I appreciate your taste, but it is 1958! Fins are on cars! The atom has been split! Surely a more modern selection is in order; postwar production for the consumer market has resumed in force, and the dollar is king of the world. Think "Space Age"
The atom bomb may have been split,but the folks in the west that I live in, probably didn't care,I still get cowboys coming into the lumberyard here to buy corral fencing/lumber for a new bunkhouse on the ranch,and they're not toting some modern semi-auto pistol on their belts, its usually a single action,44mag or 45lc,I expect it's much the same with their choice in rifles,no I imagine if anyone had a weatherby magnum around here,it was probably some dude from back east brought it out for a once in a lifetime hunt,I'm sure some were given to the old timers/guides as tips as is sometimes common,but doubt too many were bought by the locals themselves.I know one old timer,who grew up poor,the whole family had to share their .32 win. special,and they depended on the deer meat to supplement what they couldn't or didn't grow,I'm sure his family was like most others of that time frame in this area. Hank
Roughly half the people you meet are below average intelligence.
Winchester went to all the trouble of creating the "Westerner", lets give their effort the respect it deserves. Of course I refer to the great .264 Win Mag.
Democracy is not freedom. Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to eat for lunch. Freedom comes from the recognition of certain rights which may not be taken, not even by a 99% vote. *Marvin Simkin* L.A. Times (1992)
In 1958, unless you went to a gun store for the "obscure calibers" you may have been out of luck, most places stocked the standards, 30-06 would have been one of them. Look even today, 30-06 ammo is unsold on the shelf, while all the more modern cartridges are long gone sold-out. Ammo availability was/is a major concern IF you don't hand load.
I stand corrected, the Milsurp 30-06 (Springfield or Enfield) would be a close second choice.
BMT
"The Church can and should help modern society by tirelessly insisting that the work of women in the home be recognized and respected by all in its irreplaceable value." Apostolic Exhortation On The Family, Pope John Paul II
Anybody who seriously concerns themselves with the adequacy of a Big 7mm for anything we hunt here short of brown bear, is a dufus. They are mostly making shidt up. Crunch! Nite-nite!
IIIRC the 338 had just appeared in 1958,and the 264 was a year or two away(?).You had the 300H&H in the Rem 721 and M70;I think the Mark V Weatherby was not quite around yet(?),but Roy (as JoeCool says)got it right the first time with his 270,257,7mm and 300 magnums and was building rifles on all kinds of actions.Notwithstanding a lot of R&D no one has improved a great deal on Roy's magnums yet, and I think they were the rifle to have if you went "space age" back then.
Guys like Herb Klein and Elgin Gates were trotting around North America and the globe bashing everything from arcane Asian sheep to elephants with 300 Weatherby's.
Warren Page was hunting everywhere with the 7mm Mashburn and the 375 Weatherby by then, I think.
Shortly after the 338 was introduced,Les Bowman (and maybe others) had necked it down to 7mm and gave it a 4 year workout before Remington made it the 7 Rem Mag.Bob Chatfield-Taylor and others necked it to 30 caliber and wound up with the 30-338.I think these cartridges were also known as the 30 and 7mm Belted Newtons.
I think Rocky Gibbs was "improving" the 30/06 case to his line of Gibbs cartridges.PO Ackley was no doubt doing the same thing with his AI's,and even messing with bullets with solid copper shanks and bonded lead front cores(TBBC?).
A southern California gunsmith named Roy Gradle was necking down and blowing out 348 Winchester cases,cutting an extractor groove in them,and building rifles on Reminton 722(short) actions.These carridges were known as the "Gradle Express". Today these cartridges are known as the Winchester WSM's.
The 25/06 was around,too in wildcat form.
There were a bunch of others I can't even think of and these guys made today's wildcatters look like they were standing still.If you look at this lineup of rounds and think that your 30 and 270,and 7mm WSM's or 280 AI are "cutting edge" you're only about 50 years too late.
Much of this wildcatting was done on surplus military actions like the Springfield, Enfield,and Mauser 98's.
When it comes to "space age",most of the stuff available today is really a repeat performance of stuff that is decades old;even the 375 Ruger case is a rerun of the 30 Newton, I think,and if you think the RUM's are "new",guys like Bill Steigers and some of his clients have been necking up and down, and blowing out the 404 Jeffrey case for decades before Remington introduced the Ultra Mag series.
The 270 and 30/06 no doubt led the pack, but there was LOTS of stuff developed 50 years ago that has only been refined today by better powders and bullets.What is regarded today as "cutting edge" is decades old,right out of the box.
I have heard stories of deer drives in the east where the common tool was a single shot shotgun.
The rare 30-30 or .32 Special was loaned to fellow hunters.
I am sure similar things happened in the west. You had one or two firearms in the house and used what you had. The model 70 while being produced was often out of the price range of many.
WV: YES! Elmer,too, much of his stuff went on earlier, I think.He and Bob Hagel were messing with the 333's on the 06 case and both long and standard belted cases.Once the 338 was introduced (1958 or 59?) the 338 was the embodiment of much of what Elmer did, I guess.The 333 OKH (O'Neil, Keith,Hopkins)was used as well,and the 334 OKH (a belted case about like the 338 Win mag?)...man there was so much stuff going on back then it's hard to remember it all.
I was just trying to address the "space age" stuff that might have been in use
It's funny how many times I get on the 'Fire before work to find BobinNH is posting and reading as well.
My wife thinks I'm the only person on the planet that can't sleep past 6 AM..................
Not being alive in 1958, I'd have to go with a pre 64 in 270 Winchester Magnum (aka 270 Win), topped with a Lyman or steel Bushnell, loaded with H4831, topped with a 150 Partition. I think that combo would still work today
Likely a M70, sporterized Springfield or 721 chambered in 30/06 would have been a very commonly used rifle back then. A local guy here still owns his M70 in 300H&H, and it saw plenty of Idaho back then, as well a lots of Wyoming. Another local, now deceased, used a M54 and later a M70 in 30/06 to hunt all over the west as well as Canada and Alaska.
I believe the old 334OKH was the forerunner of the 340Wby, but I might be wrong on that. Have to dig out some old Keith books and see for sure.
I was 6 years old in 1958. I remember my Dad having 2 rifles in the late 50's or early 60's. A MK V 300 Weatherby and a Huskvarna .270. My hunting didn't start untill 1964. And that year Dad bought me a Rem. 600 in 6mm. Virgil B.
Although the dream rifle might have been the .06 Model 70,but in truth,most bolt action shooters were using military surplus rifles, 03's, 8mm,7x 57's, 30-40 Krag, etc. Some were sportorized, some off the rack. You could buy an 03 from Montgomery Wards for $12.50 as I recall I did. Sears sold the Ted williams ( Winchesters) and Wards sold the Glenfields
If God wanted you to walk and carry things on your back, He would not have invented stirrups and pack saddles
Well this is easy the .300 Wby since it came out in 1945 it would have been around for 13 years, just go down to any sporting good store grab some 300 H&H go hunting and you have some fired formed brass.
Absolutely, there isn't even a close second choice. And, it's still a great choice today.
I was alive and living in southwestern Montana in 1958, but only hunting some small game and varmints, as I couldn't legally hunt anything that required a license (upland birds, waterfowl and big game) until I turned 12 in 1964. But I was already a gun nut.
There weren't nearly as many Model 70's in hunter's hands as some of us would prefer to believe, mostly because they cost more than other rifles. One guy had a Model 70 .30-06 he bought the first year they came out, and it had a low-powered Bausch & Lomb variable in the adjustable B&L rings, a real hot outfit back in 1937, and still pretty hot in 1958.
But there were more Remington 721's and 722's among the hunters I knew than Model 70's. In eastern Montana these tended toward .257's and .270's, and in western Montana they were mostly .30-06's, along with a few .300's, both Savage and H&H. A few guys carried Savage 99's, including my hunting mentor, and my own first big game rifle was a 99 because of him, a .308.
There were a LOT of sporterized Springfields, and some that weren't even sporterized. In fact one of my childhood friends still hunts with an unmodified 03A3, and has killed all sorts of game with it, I believe all in the county where he was born and raised.
In second place among ex-military rifles was probably the Lee-Enfield .303 British. I can remember at least three .303's in our circle, including the No. 4 Mk. 1 that I inherited from my dad's only brother. It had the stock cut down and that was the extent of the sporterizing. He shot OK with irons. Many hardware stores had barrels full of .303's selling for $10 or $15 back then. One guy in our crowd had a 6x scope on his, but that's the only scoped SMLE I can remember. It was also the only 6x scope I can remember. Most people who used scopes had 2.5x or 4x Weavers.
I also only knew one guy who had a Mauser, originally a 7.65 but rechambered to .30-06. It's only modifications were the stock getting cut down, the barrel getting shortened, and a new front sight attached. Theoretically the bore would be too loose for .30 caliber bullets but he killed a pile of deer and elk with it. He bought whatever 180-grain bullets were cheapest and loaded them with the same charge of 4320. He also killed an elk every year.
Lever-action Winchesters were mostly used by ranchers and kids, who would later graduate to real rifles, mostly sporterized Springfields with scopes. My father had a Marlin 336 (labeled Western Field) .30-30 with a cheap Japanese 4x scope, because his eyes weren't good enough for irons, and I used it to take my first deer.
The .30-06 was considered a very powerful round, plenty for anything in Montana, even grizzlies. Yes, we still had a season on them then. In fact, you could use your deer "A" (buck) tag on a grizzly, but you then had to pay a $25 extra fee to the game department. I actually knew one guy who did this.
The 7mm Remington Magnum craze had started heating up across the country by the time I began big game hunting. A few of the real gun nuts bought them in Montana, and were firmly convinced that the Seven Em Em would flip an elk over at 1000 yards. Only one guy in our crowd had a Weatherby--a .300 of course--but he was originally from Back East so didn't really count, partly because he almost never got anything.
“Montana seems to me to be what a small boy would think Texas is like from hearing Texans.” John Steinbeck
Only one guy in our crowd had a Weatherby--a .300 of course--but he was originally from Back East so didn't really count, partly because he almost never got anything.
In 1958 I was in the same boat as JB, seems we are about the same age. Our family still lives in the same area now as back then, south central kansas. I am not sure when my dad and grandad started their treck to colorado for deer, elk and bear but I know it was before I was born (1952). They were still using the same equipment though when I finally got to go along (just for the ride) in about 1960. The equipment was one model 54 win in 30-06, one model 70 in 30-06, one 99 savage in 300 sav. and one m1 garrand. (all of the above rifles are tucked away in my safe)
I wasn't born for another 3 years but got to know a lot of the guys in the late 60's when I did. Plus (luckily)travelled with my dad a lot prior to school age - he drove a school bus, farmed , had cattle, ran heavy equip. some so got to know some characters.
Very few Winchester/remington or Savage bolt actions - remember in Saskatchewan we were in the heart of depression in the 30's and that carried over.
Lots of 303 Lee enfields - you could buy them in 1969 for 8-12$ depending on shape from places like the Bay, Army & Navy and various mail order. 'Sportized' for (I think) around $24. A few surplus 6.5X55 , can't remember any 7X57. Lots of Savage 99, especially in 300 (still have two one that was Dad's). Quite a few 250/3000's. Not that many 30/30's , not a lot of used around and anyone that bought new bought a Savage , mostly.
Remember 2 Model 70's (both 270, who needed a 30/06?), one bought new with a steel tube 4X . His son (5 years older than me)used it and I remember it well. Remember the dad telling about getting some winter meat with it in the early 50's - early Dec. and a fresh snow he took the team and cutter and went hunting. Shot 11 or 13 deer that day and distributed them among family and neighbors. He bought the 270 new and was a deadly shot, but wasn't a loony. Prior to the 270 he had a 303 British and I remember him and others talking about how he would, at times if they were available and he was out of 303 British, shoot 303 SAVAGE through it (like 22 shorts except the caliber !!!). The other M70, 270, was owned by a fellow I never knew but my uncle (who was deadly with a 99 in 300) hunted with him and spoke about it . He had tremendous respect for the 'hitting power' and range it had
Must have been about that time that the 88 Winchester came out , which was popular here. Friends dad bought one in 243 the first year they were available, and embedded a new silver dollar in the stock. Wish I had a $ for every coyote /deer and antelope taken with it. He's long passed now but his granson owns it.
Well I wasn�t born for another three years myself. But the earliest memory I have is I went to a PARTY WITH MY DAD AND WENT HOME WITH MY MOM�. Just kidding I�m the youngest of three.
I can't speak for all of the West but central Idaho was pretty western in 1958,and even today it still pretty western by most standards. In this part of the country, in that time frame, the rifles of choice tended to be Savage 99's in 250/3000 and 300 Savage. Apparently most of the people around here didn't know they wouldn't kill elk because those two calibers were the favorites of most every outfitter and local hunter in this part of the country. There were still tons of them in use in this area up until the late 60's when that other calibers started making inroads into their dominance, surprisingly enough many of them were replaced by 243's of various manufacture and they kept right on killing elk with them too.
I had been out of high school a year in 1958 and of course knew about everything, I fell into the same trap as John B. and bought a Savage 99 in 308 because it was "more powerful", well like John B. - it took me a long time to get over the flinch that rifle gave me. It had to be the hardest kicking, most miserable rife I have ever shot, I don't know why it kicked so hard but I put up with it for about 8 years and finally traded it.
I doubt that our part of the country represents the West but there are a lot of Savage 99's in 250/3000 and 300 scattered around this part of the country although most of them are no longer used.
drover
223 Rem, my favorite cartridge - you can't argue with truckloads of dead PD's and gophers.
24hourcampfire.com - The site where there is a problem for every solution.
I was 16 in 1958 and I had a near new 30.06 in a Rem.721 with a 4X Weaver scope. I hunted the plateau country of Western Co.that year. I had two buck deer tags and two doe tags. I used 150gr. Silver Tips because I thought they looked cool, and because Jack O'connor recommended 150gr. bullets in the.06 for deer. It worker well enough, as I filled the four tags. And it would work today. I think the biggest change is not in guns or ammo but in optics.
I've hunted elk in griz country with a 30-06 and felt a little underguned, but it would work, if needed.
The skull on the left is that of a 7 foot grizzly with a 25 caliber bullet hole from a model 94 Winchester in 25-35. A 30-06 will do the job, heck, there was a guy in Wyoming that killed a charging grizzly with one arrow.
Talked to an old fellow in Southwestern Colorado. He showed me his Elk antlers. He shot 43 Elk in Colorado - All with a 300 Savage.
A friend of mine went to a Rocky Mountain Elk Foundation banquet with an old-timer that used a Savage 99 in 300 Savage in a take down version.
After the dinner the MC asked how many of the people at the banquet had killed 5 or more elk. The old-timer leaned over to Greg and asked "does he mean at one time?"
The .30-06 was considered a very powerful round, plenty for anything in Montana, even grizzlies. Yes, we still had a season on them then. In fact, you could use your deer "A" (buck) tag on a grizzly, but you then had to pay a $25 extra fee to the game department. I actually knew one guy who did this.
I'm curious about that use of a deer tag. When we were kids my father made us chop wood and promised to take us bear hunting if we did it all summer. When we went bear hunting we didn't have a bear tag, but we could shoot a bear if he had a deer tag in our possesion. Grizzlies weren't excepted either, as I did shoot one with my 25-35.
He is on the wall, with no taxidermy, because we just stretched the hide on the floor of a barn and then salted it. Years later when I got married, I did get the hide tanned, it looks like this...
I have a copy of the "Montana Hunting & Fishing Information Bulletin--1965-66" that I picked up somewhere a few years ago. This was a little after I started hunting big game. According to it:
1) "Residents who hold any big game license are authorized to take one bear only, (regardless of species) during a license year."
2) There was no resident bear tag. The over-the counter licenses (tags) available were Deer A, Deer B and Elk. These each cost $1, but you had to buy a $2 bird license first.
3) Licenses also available through drawing were Antelope ($1), Moose ($25), Goat ($5) and Sheep ($15).
So apparently residents who had ANY big game could shoot either kind of bear. I was told that a deer tag could be used on a bear from the guys at the Powder Horn when I bought my first bird, deer and elk licenses there. But maybe they didn't even have to be tagged, as long as you had a big game license/tag of any sort. The bulletin is a little vague, but doesn't contain all of the regulations, such as season dates, bird limits, etc. Those were apparently printed separately each year. This may be why there isn't any mention of the $25 extra fee paid after killing a grizzly. I know that was in effect for quite a while. The guy I know who shot a grizzly back then (and tagged it with a deer tag) had to pay the $25 extra.
Apparently the only bear tag available was for non-residents, and cost $20. It was good only for black bears.
The black bear season then ran from spring until fall, all through the summer, but the grizzly season ran "concurrently with deer and elk seasons in the corresponding hunting districts."
According to the bulletin, black bears "are a trophy animal and its meat does not have to be used." I think that was changed in the 1980's or maybe early 90's?
Some other interesting stuff:
"There are no restrictions on caliber for rifles used in big game hunting." This is of course the way it is now, but I remember older hunters telling me there had been a restriction against .22-caliber rifles in years before.
"No license is required to hunt mountain lions, bobcats, lynx, wolves, coyotes, weasels, skunks, raccoons, red foxes, woodchucks, rabbits, hares, porcupines, prairie dogs, or ground squirrels (gophers)." There is no mention of tree squirrels. Probably they thought anybody who'd shoot a red or fox squirrel was nuts.
Where did you get your griz?
Last edited by Mule Deer; 12/20/08.
“Montana seems to me to be what a small boy would think Texas is like from hearing Texans.” John Steinbeck
I can't speak for all of the West but central Idaho was pretty western in 1958,and even today it still pretty western by most standards. In this part of the country, in that time frame, the rifles of choice tended to be Savage 99's in 250/3000 and 300 Savage. Apparently most of the people around here didn't know they wouldn't kill elk because those two calibers were the favorites of most every outfitter and local hunter in this part of the country. There were still tons of them in use in this area up until the late 60's when that other calibers started making inroads into their dominance, surprisingly enough many of them were replaced by 243's of various manufacture and they kept right on killing elk with them too.
I had been out of high school a year in 1958 and of course knew about everything, I fell into the same trap as John B. and bought a Savage 99 in 308 because it was "more powerful", well like John B. - it took me a long time to get over the flinch that rifle gave me. It had to be the hardest kicking, most miserable rife I have ever shot, I don't know why it kicked so hard but I put up with it for about 8 years and finally traded it.
I doubt that our part of the country represents the West but there are a lot of Savage 99's in 250/3000 and 300 scattered around this part of the country although most of them are no longer used.
drover
In the early '60's, I worked summer jobs in central Idaho. In 1962, I worked in Dixie and met Wally York, a hunting guide. He mentioned that the city guys seemed to like very powerful bolt action rifles (30-06 and better), while locals often used Savage 99's in 300 Savage and some liked lever action 30-30's. I re-visited Dixie in 2007 and met an old timer who used a Winchester 71 in 348 Win. Worked for him!
I guess the game has gotten tougher in the past 50 years.
In 1958 I wanted a Winchester Model 70 Featherweight in .270 Winchester (because Jack O'Connor so recommended) or in .30-06 (because Colonel Townsend Whelen had declared "The .30-06 is never a mistake.") I wanted a Weaver K-4 in Weaver mounts on that rifle, and I wanted to load it with DuPont IMR 4350 to push a 180 grain Nosler Partition bullet because Jack O'Connor and Warren Page both said that Nosler bullets actually did what Nosler claimed they would do. And because Jack O'Connor said that a Bausch & Lomb 7x35 binocular was a good compromise, I wanted one of those too. All of my firearms knowledge came from books and magazines; I lived in an anti-gun and non-hunting family. That didn't matter. I knew what I wanted!
The 30,06 would have to be the cartridge,(cause it still is as good as any). The .270 would be a close second, and I bet there were a lot more 03 and 03A3s in the hunting camps back then. If you had the money iam sure the Model 70 was the cadilac. But just think I bet a guy could get a JC Higgins prety cheap then , and the higgins in either cartridge is sort of plain jane , but no rifle could be a much better tool for taking game, even today. An 45, thanks for pickin 1958 , I was in the womb from about october of that year & I like the rare ocasion I still get to say I was,t born yet. I think The dogers were still in broklyn and the Giants in new york ! ...tj3006
tj3006, the Brooklyn Dodgers played their final game at Ebbets Field on Sept. 24th 1957, they beat the Pittsburgh Pirates 2-0. The 1958 season was played in L.A. 58 was a good year.
tj3006, the Brooklyn Dodgers played their final game at Ebbets Field on Sept. 24th 1957, they beat the Pittsburgh Pirates 2-0. The 1958 season was played in L.A. 58 was a good year.
It was on my grandfather's homestead near Horse Butte.
We used to hunt the bears at the garbage pits that the Forest Service had dug for the local campgrounds. My brother and I were sneaking into one by Beaver Creek one afternoon and caught a bear in the pit.
My brother shot it and we went over to investigate the bear before my dad made it in with the pickup truck. Bears will eat anything and let their intestines sort it all out, this one was no different, as there was a plastic Eddy's Bread sack coming out of it's butt.
When dad showed up, we didn't really know how to bring attention to the bear's butt, but we had to say something. When we showed him the bread sack, I remember distinctly how he advised us on our discovery. Being a Montana born and raised cowboy, he was never a real diplomat, but he was more eloquent about this than any situation I can recall..."Don't mention any of this to your mother".
When dad showed up, we didn't really know how to bring attention to the bear's butt, but we had to say something. When we showed him the bread sack, I remember distinctly how he advised us on our discovery. Being a Montana born and raised cowboy, he was never a real diplomat, but he was more eloquent about this than any situation I can recall..."Don't mention any of this to your mother".
Advice heeded and remembered for over 40 years.
That is funny. Brings to mind a wiener dog my mother had. For some reason he ate the Christmas tree tinsel. It doesn't digest very well. We called him our Christmas dog
My grandparents homesteaded on Bear Creek south of Roy. My dad said that a couple of the guys from the neighborhood (if you can call Bohemian Corner a neighborhood) killed the last grizzly reported in the Judiths when my dad was a kid. They were out looking for something, probably both cows and "free" meat, cause one of the guys had a .30-06 along, when a big grizzly charged them. The guy with the .30-06 ran, but the other guy had a Colt single-action .45 and started putting lead into the bear. It fell dead on top of him.
So I guess the .25-35 and .45 Colt will work on grizzlies.
Last edited by Mule Deer; 12/21/08.
“Montana seems to me to be what a small boy would think Texas is like from hearing Texans.” John Steinbeck
Just out of curiousity, how many times did you shoot the bear, and where?
An old buddy of mine grew up near Polson. His family had a some resort cabins they rented out on Lake Mary Ronan. When 10-12 he was assigned to shoot the black bears that came into the dump on the place. His rifle was a Krag. It always worked. he has no idea what some of the bullets were.
“Montana seems to me to be what a small boy would think Texas is like from hearing Texans.” John Steinbeck
It was on my grandfather's homestead near Horse Butte.
We used to hunt the bears at the garbage pits that the Forest Service had dug for the local campgrounds. My brother and I were sneaking into one by Beaver Creek one afternoon and caught a bear in the pit.
My brother shot it and we went over to investigate the bear before my dad made it in with the pickup truck. Bears will eat anything and let their intestines sort it all out, this one was no different, as there was a plastic Eddy's Bread sack coming out of it's butt.
When dad showed up, we didn't really know how to bring attention to the bear's butt, but we had to say something. When we showed him the bread sack, I remember distinctly how he advised us on our discovery. Being a Montana born and raised cowboy, he was never a real diplomat, but he was more eloquent about this than any situation I can recall..."Don't mention any of this to your mother".
Advice heeded and remembered for over 40 years.
Re the bread sack out the butt - Maybe he was an early ecologist and packaging his schitt for re-cycling
Well, I was not around but I still hunt with the rifle my grandfather hunted with then a Rem. 721 in 30-06 with a weaver K-4 scope, I did change the scope. Despite having other rifles it seems my 721 is the luckiest of the bunch killing most of my game. On my Wifes side of the family all of her people hunted with open sighted Savage 99 take down versions of the 250-3000 and 30-30's. All of her people hunted out in West Texas near Marfa and the rifles saw daily use on the ranch.
On a side note...Were there any of the Belgium Brownings on the market yet, I think I would take one of those if I was alive then.
In the 1958 GUN DIGEST the basic Remington 721 is listed at $95.25, the "standard" Model 70 Winchester at $129.95. This may not seem like much, but it's the same difference as between rifle costing $500 today and one costing $682.
The Savage 99-EG is listed at $113.65. The lowest grade of Weatherby Mark V was $265.
I have some old AMERICAN RIFLEMANS from that period but ain't going to drag them out right now. I do remember magazine ads in the early 60s that had SMLEs for as little as $10-15, military Mausers for $20, and Springfields of various kinds from $30 to $40.
“Montana seems to me to be what a small boy would think Texas is like from hearing Texans.” John Steinbeck
On a comparative level, we are living in those days. I see Remington 721's for sale for under $300 routinely, often with a Weaver K4 on board. Pre-64 Winchesters, anywhere other than the internet, are regarded as just old 30-06's and can be had for under $600 in good condition, often, again, with the old Weaver K4 on top.
Today classic rifles are everywhere, languishing on racks. I believe this to be the fault of too many insolent grandchildren who sell off heirlooms to fund Ipods. Their loss is my gain though
A decent salary in those days was $8,000 per year.
First gun prices I remember were around the late 1960's. Ruger Blackhawks were $96.50 for the longest time, the SBH was expensive at around $112. My father bought a Colt Gov't Model .45 for $99 in 1969 and I remember the pained look on his face over how danged expensive that was.
Gunnery, gunnery, gunnery. Hit the target, all else is twaddle!
In 1958 $10,000 a year was considered pretty good pay for a professional man (women got paid less), and a blue-collar worker often got around $100 a week. That would pay for a 721--before taxes.
Today many people consider consider $30,000 a year on the slim side. That's about $14 an hour, or around $577 a week, just enough to buy a Ruger 77--before taxes.
When I started working on Montana ranches and farms in the late 1960's, the average daily pay was $12, plus room and board, for an experienced man. That's about $3750 a year, working 6 days a week, which was common except during harvest when you typically worked 7. I got $5 a day for my first full-time ranch job.
“Montana seems to me to be what a small boy would think Texas is like from hearing Texans.” John Steinbeck
When I was a kid in the mid 50's the barber shops would be full of adults just setting in there BSing, sometimes with no intention of getting a haircut. Often, the conversations would be about deer rifles, and you guessed it, the 30-06 vs 270 was the hot button argument starter. But the 300 Savage 99 was also a highly valued whitetail and mule deer rifle, and some used them for elk. There were a lot of low priced mausers to be converted into sporters, as well as Springfields you could get for about $20.
I would pick a Mauser sporter with a nice walnut "Bishop" aftermarket stock with cut checkering in 270 Winchester with a white line recoil pad and Lyman 3x scope.
Well, I was 10 years old in 1958, and I was looking forward to the time I turned 12, when Dad told me, I'd be able to have my own rifle. At that point in my life I had every ballistic chart committed to memory and all of the specifications of every rifle made. What I remember (vividly) is that the rifles I saw most being hunted with by the men I was around were Savage 99's in 300 Savage, quite a few Remington 721, mostly 30-06 & 270. Winchester 70's were there too, again mostly 30-06 & 270. I wound up with a Savage 99 in 308 myself largely due to influence of two great uncles who had Savage 99's in 300. That, and the fact I couldn't swing a Win 70 in 270, my Jack O'Connor inspired favorite. Anyway, those are what I saw the most of.
Steve
Theodore Roosevelt: "Do what you can where you are with what you have"
I read about pre-'64 Model 70's from the time I bought my first GUN DIGEST, subscribed to OUTDOOR LIFE and joined the NRA in 1964. I didn't know anybody who owned one, however, for about 6 more years. I was surprised when I finally got to handle that one, because it wasn't all the different from most other bolt-action rifles.
It had a stock, a bolt handle and a barrel, and you loaded the rounds into the magazine by pressing them in there, just like on a Springfield or Mauser or Remington. The safety seemed a little clumsy compared to the one on my Remington 700's, but then that first Model 70 was a pre-war model.
Guess I was expected something like a Weatherby. Now, THAT was a different rifle....
“Montana seems to me to be what a small boy would think Texas is like from hearing Texans.” John Steinbeck
I wasn't in Montana in 1958 but was there in '59, '60, '61 and then from 1964-1967. I was a forester with the US Forest Service on the Warland (now under Lake Koocanusa) and Fortine Districts of the Kootenai Nat. Forest.
Most of the fellows I hunted with at that time had .30-06, .308, 7mm Rem. Mag.,and one .30-40 Krag. The 30-06's were a Winchester Mod. 70 Featherweight and a Browning (Belgium). The .308 was a Sako Forester and the 7mm Rem. Mag. was a Husqvarna (mine).
The Husky was purchased at the Coast to Coast store in Whitefish in 1966 for $127. I paid it out over a 3 month period with overtime money I earned burning brush piles that fall. My salary at that time was $7000 per year.
I shot a black bear in the spring (June), of l967. The bear had been hanging around the Murphy Lake Ranger Station and couldn't be scared off from the area. There were young children at the ranger station site and the parents were worried about the bear hanging around. The District Ranger had peppered it with a load of #6 or #7 1/2 shot and it still came back.
I had a hunting license that had been purchased around the first of March. With the license one could take a black bear. The ranger's wife called one day and said the bear was back and she was worried about the kids playing outside. I told the ranger that I had a license and would be glad to go to the house and get my rifle and take the bear if he wanted me to. He said it was fine with him. There was no tag for the bear. After shooting and dressing the bear I took it to a game processor in Eureka, MT to have it cut up.
In about a week, maybe less, I drove up to the ranger station after working in the field all day and was met by the district ranger. He asked me to come into his office and when I entered I saw the local game warden. The warden asked me if I had shot a bear and I told him that I had. I'm sure he already knew this as I had shot it on the ranger station grounds with the district ranger's blessing. He then asked if I had a license. I told him that I did and he asked me when it was purchased, and if I had it before taking the bear. I showed the license and he could see that I had purchased it way before the bear was shot.
Since there was no tag to attach to the carcass I had simply taken the bear to the processor and left my name.
The warden said that I was supposed to leave my license tag number with the processor. I told the warden that I was not aware of that requirement, that it wasn't clear in the information on the license and the processor didn't ask me for the number. I asked the warden if it was my responsibility to give the processor the number or was it the processor's responsibility to ask me for it. His answer was,"I've already given the processor a tail chewing".
I got my "tail chewing" and a warning to be sure and leave the license number with the processor should I ever have the occasion to take another bear. I never had another occasion.
A deceased friend who was rather well employed for Montana in the 50's had a heavier gun than most as he hunted in what is now the Bob Marshall wilderness. His gun was a 338 OKH. I have held it and wish I had the foresight to take a picture of the barrel stamp.
It's 1958. If you handload, there's not much out there except the Nosler Partition, the Western Tool and Copper Works, Barnes, and a few others I'm forgetting. Suffice it say, super bullets are limited in supply.
More than that, powders aren't what they are today in terms of temperature stability, burning rate and availability. Some of the classics exist, and more than enough to get the job done, but the Golden Age of powders lies in the future.
You want an all around rifle for hunting "the West," whatever that means What do you pick? If you were alive then, what did you pick?
Same '57 vintage Model 70 .300 H&H I use today....
I have seen some .357 magnum cast bullets not penetrate bear skulls, but all the .40+ revolver cartridges seem to do the job. Can't say I'm surprised that a .25-35 bullet would do it. I have a .25-35 Model 1894 made in 1898 and it (like all .25's) works a lot better than many people would think, even on supposedly "tough" stuff.
In fact my dad killed his firt deer in the Judith Mountains with a .25-20, and a frontal chest shot too....
“Montana seems to me to be what a small boy would think Texas is like from hearing Texans.” John Steinbeck
Thanks for the story. Sometimes I think the rules are just made up as they go along!
My old friend Chub Eastman (who used to work for Leupold and Nosler, and is now a gun writer) is about 10 years older than me, and gew up in the Polson area, where his family ran a fishing lodge on Lake Mary Ronan. One of Chub's jobs even as a kid was getting rid of problem black bears at the dump. His rifle was a .30-40 Krag, I believe straight military. Chub says it worked so well on bears that he has never hunted black bears again, though he still hunts all over the world for other things! I don't know what the laws were in Chub's day (and I don't think he does either) but apparently nobody said anything about it.
Last edited by Mule Deer; 12/22/08.
“Montana seems to me to be what a small boy would think Texas is like from hearing Texans.” John Steinbeck
Shrapnel has a wealth of knowledge and experience about hunting and shooting in general and in Montana in particular. I wish he would post more often. After all, there are not many people that have taken Montana grizzlies, legally. (But I once worked with a woman from Bozeman that had educated two out of three of them that were in her horses one night, thinking they were black bears. Neat lady, too.
When I lived in central Montana in the late 1980s I got to know an old hunter who'd outfitted in the Bob Marshall for decades. When I got to know him he had just turned 80--and had horsepacked by himself into the Bob and killed a 6-point bull elk with the same rifle he'd used since his youth, a Savage 99 in .30-30. He'd also killed 5 grizzlies with it over the years.
“Montana seems to me to be what a small boy would think Texas is like from hearing Texans.” John Steinbeck
I believe you, JB, one of my brother in law's used a 300 win mag in the early 60's to kill a brown bear in Alaska. The only reason he didnt take his 30-06 he told me was a friend told him he just had the have the 300 mag to kill a brown bear. I asked him what his guide had for backup.....30-06. An 06 or 300 mag packing a 220 grain bullet should be bad medicine for a grizzly.
300 WBY Tops in my book. 264 Westerner in 62.Tried the Rem 140 bonded core on a mulie this year. Expansion with no noticable weight loss. Saw no bulls to try them on.
A Winchester Model 70 featherweight in .270 Winchester with a 4X scope, probably a Weaver or Lyman, would have done nicely. If using factory ammo, most likely would have been 130 grain Winchester Silvertips. For handloads I'd have had a 50 lb drum of war surplus 4831 and a coffee can full of 130 grain Sierra bullets that would have sat on top of a 60 grain charge. A military-style Boyt leather sling would have allowed me to carry the rig slung over my red & black plaid Pendleton coat. That setup would still suit me just fine in all the spots I hunt in the southwest. The only caveat would be that I'd surely load a 150 grain Nosler Partition on the rare ocassion I drew an elk permit.
This is another "Western Gun" from a long time resident family of West Yellowstone. I traded him out of this original model 1876 Winchester Deluxe in 40-60. When I finally got my moose permit, I decided to use this rifle.
My dad told me to never shoot a moose in the head, but that was the only shot I had, as he stood facing me for several minutes and wouldn't move. I figured that a frontal shot, between the eyes would kill him instantly, by hitting the brain. After All, I had shot a grizzly bear between the eyes with a 25-35 and he dropped dead in his tracks.
This time the bullet didn't penetrate the skull at all, it just hit the front of his skull and stayed under the hide, lodging just under the eye. About 5 more rounds finished him, the last between the ears from behind.
I later sold that rifle as I found it too anemic to use as a big game rifle, since then getting a 45-60, and a 45-75 in original model 1876's.
I have seen some .357 magnum cast bullets not penetrate bear skulls, but all the .40+ revolver cartridges seem to do the job. Can't say I'm surprised that a .25-35 bullet would do it. I have a .25-35 Model 1894 made in 1898 and it (like all .25's) works a lot better than many people would think, even on supposedly "tough" stuff.
In fact my dad killed his firt deer in the Judith Mountains with a .25-20, and a frontal chest shot too....
The late Howard Copenhaver of Ovando kept a Grizzly bear hide draped over his couch that was shot with a 25-35. he claimed that was all the recoil he wanted to deal with.
I started big game hunting in 1956. Even then, I was reading all I could get my hands on, hanging out at gun stores (we had alot of them in Kalifornia back then) and arguing which caliber/cartriage was better than what. The fist choice of the knowledgable gun nut/hunters were the M70 Winchester and the 721 Remington. While there were other choices, those were the standouts. The .270 and the '06 were the top choices of the well informed rifleman/hunters. At the tender age of 12, for my very first big game season, I carried a 721 with a B&L 2.5-4X, the Balvar 4. Since it was a 30'06, my grandfather had put a muzzle break on it. Surprisingly, I could shoot it pretty well. There were still lots of guys that had .30/30 Winchesters where I hunted. My very first big game rifle, bought at the ripe old age of 19, (1963) was a 336 Marlin, .35 Remington. But my first big game kill, in 1960, a respectable forked horn blacktail ( 6 pt. eastern count) was killed with the hot, new 740 Remington semi auto in 30'06 wearing the latest in rifle scopes, the B&L 2.5-8X Balvar8. BTW, Elmer Keith was one of those that I followed. Of the OKH series, the .333 OKH was based on the opened up '06 case. The Belted .333 OKH was a shortened, open up, 300 H&H case. The necked up, full lenth case of their design was called the .334 OKH ( belted ?). While cartriages haven't changed much, rifle design and rifle scopes used have changed alot. We didn't have glass bedding back then. Few bothered to free float their barrels in spite of Townsend Whelen's writings and recommendations. Light Mtn. rifles were few and far between requiring, for the most part, the services of a custom gunsmith. Stainless steel use in them was very limited and not popular. I don't recall the Nosler Partition being availiable back then. The top bullets were the Remington Core-Loks and the Winchester Silvertips. The original Barnes pure copper jacketed bullets were available with differenct jacket thickness. They were made from copper tubing. We have come a long way. Particularly when it comes to rifle design and the materials used to build them. Bullets are vastly better. More accurate and much deadlier. Rifle scopes are much brighter, and, in some cases, tougher. Binoculars have improved vastly as well. I still have my grandfather's old B&L Zephur 9X35. A favorite of Jack O'Connor for sheep hunting. All of my 8X binoculars out perform it easily. E
My dad served in WWII. He did all of his hunting after the war, until about 1966, with two beautifully reworked M98 Mausers: one in 7x57 and one in 8x57. As saddlesore said, there were a lot of guys back then hunting with surplus 98's and 03's. No scopes on my dad's guns, either. Both were fitted with good aperture sights. He tauught marksmanship in the U.S. Army during the war, and he could shoot. I saw him put down a few deer at longish ranges with those peep sights, and some others at shorter ranges with a very quick mount-and-shoot motion.
I agree, though, the dream all-around gun would have been a pre-64 in .270 or .30-06 - and it still would be a good choice.
Saddlesore, didn't Montgomery Ward sell a sporter M98? I think it was a model 50-ish and the name started with an "H."
My grandfather carried a Winchester 95 in .30-40 up until he bought a Remington 721 in .300 H&H in the '50's. He used the 95 in the middle 40's to shoot a grizzly in the Bob Marshall. We still have the simple tanned hide.
Sadly, my uncle grabbed the .300 H&H within hours of my grandfather passing and then traded it off for a rifle worth less than half of its monetary value, and less than zero percent of the Remington's sentimental value to my dad and I.
But, a cousin has the Winchester 95 and though he doesn't hunt anymore, he treasures the rifle.
Family, shot mostly bolts in .270 and .30-06. My other grandfather had a Mauser rebarreled to .30-06. My dad in 58 and 59 bought Weatherbys in .257 and .300.
When I lived in central Montana in the late 1980s I got to know an old hunter who'd outfitted in the Bob Marshall for decades. When I got to know him he had just turned 80--and had horsepacked by himself into the Bob and killed a 6-point bull elk with the same rifle he'd used since his youth, a Savage 99 in .30-30. He'd also killed 5 grizzlies with it over the years.
Jim:
Is that a real 1903 or the parade rifle dummy version?
Just curious, I had the latter at about that age..............
My boy now plays with it.
Wooden stock, fake action, cast weight were the handguard normally is located.
My dad said that a couple of the guys from the neighborhood (if you can call Bohemian Corner a neighborhood)
Mule Deer
There are about 3 house within a mile or so of Bohemian Corner. What more of a neighborhood do you want.
My dad and uncles grew up around Lewistown in the late 40, early 50 and all of them shot a 30-06. My Grandpa who lived over at Saltese, MT used a 30-40 Krag. A friend who lived in Townsend used a 30-06 in both M70 Featherwieght and Enfield and his dad used a Krag. I really didn't know what a .270 was until my brother bought one in the late 70s.
My brain finally clicked and I remembered the answer to my own question. It was Sears that sold the J.C. Higgins Model 50, which as a Belgian FN 98 Mauser. I believe later they sold the Win 70 under the JC Higgins name, and that was a Model 53.
In '58,here in BC, it would have to be a 303,with hot CIL ammo,it wasn't much off the velocity of a 30-06.I have 3 sporterized P-17s,two of which are factory BSAs, and a FN-Husky from that era.All 30-06s.
Although I am from the Eastern USA I read all of the stuff and most of that was by O'Connor, Page, Brown, Keith and Whelan. The dream rifle was the M70 of course.
It was O'Connor who made the 270 the Western cartridge. I started handloading in 1953 however it was not until the early 60's that I had my own money for guns.
Back then my late dad was a tool and die maker and in fact had his own shop. We belonged to the local RC and shot in RF competition and my dad hunted deer in VT. It got to go to VT in the mid 50's and dad had sporterized a P-17 Enfield for me.
We could get military rifles for twenty bucks and almost free ammo from the DCM. There was no way the cartridge was going to be a 270 what with free 30-06 ammo. We did not hunt with the FMJ ammo but shot a lot of it.
Dad got a fixturing job from High Standard and they were making the M50 and M51's back then. He got one for my uncle and one for himself in 30-06 of course. I still have his M51. Lymans were right here promoting shooting so of course we had Lyman scopes.
This is a great thread and I enjoyed the talk from you Western guys.
My brain finally clicked and I remembered the answer to my own question. It was Sears that sold the J.C. Higgins Model 50, which as a Belgian FN 98 Mauser. I believe later they sold the Win 70 under the JC Higgins name, and that was a Model 53.
Yes. It was the J.C. Higgins Mod 50 my dad used and he handed it down to me.
I first hunted out west in 1960. Four of us each got a mule deer and a pronghorn. The rifles were 30-06, .300 Weatherby, .270 Weatherby, and 7mm Weatherby. The 30-06 (mine)used 150 grain Sierra spire points and they worked fine.
Don't blame me. I voted for Trump.
Democrats would burn this country to the ground, if they could rule over the ashes.
I think the (then) new Marlin 455 in 30-06 would have been perfect. The model 725 Remington, the Model 70, and the FN would have been for the high rollers. We peons would use the 300 Savage, 30-40 Krag/303 British sometimes even fitted with a peep sight. A real eccentric might use a Rem722 in 300 Savage restocked to look like a mini Weatherby and mounted with 3X Weaver in beautifully machined Maynard Beuhler mounts. For the economy minded a Sears (Mauser) or a Wards (Heym or Sako)actioned plain stock beauty would fill the bill in 270 or 06.
I often hear the term FN and Mauser used in the same light, and that is incorrect...One is an FN action and the other is a Mauser action, the FN is not a Mauser, as seems to be common belief, although it has become an almost acceptable term over the years perhaps, but it's an incorrect term. For what its worth.
In 58 I was 15. the 06 ruled and was widly used by the common man. Up to that point, my Dad shot a Savage Mod. 20 in 250-3000, and had modified the stock with a higher comb so he could mount a weaver 2 1/2 power scope, post and crosshair. I still have all. In fact when he bought the 06, a Husky, I got the 250 as a hand-down. I never had much luck with deer with that gun, but man did I ever get the woodchucks, love of varmint hunting that still persists, also started handloading then, actually befor 58.
Western hunting tho, was not for us. Just too darn expensive. Dad was a welder, made $3.10 an hour, and with 5 kids to feed, we stayed close to home.
Oregon - I was one year old in 1958, so didn't get out much for hunting. My earliest memories where sitting with my dad and brother in the back of an old pickup and shooting foxes with his Model 12 Winchester that he got in 1946 when he was discharged from the Army. At the same time, he bought a Savage Model 99 in .300 Savage that he did all his deer hunting with. The Model 99 was quite popular as was the 300 Savage in those days. He had a Winchester Model 95 in .30-40 Krag that he used before the War. I still have all 3 guns. I try to get the Savage out at least once a year for pig hunting here in CA.
I was 16 years old in Oct. 1968 and I was the proud owner of a Rem.Mod.721 in 30.06. It was a used rifle and I paid $60 for it that summer. For another $35 I was able to add a Weaver 4X scope. That fall I killed five deer with it, two in Ca. the others in Co. I spent my 16th birthday in a Colorado deer camp. Happy days.
I was around 11 in 1958. Nobody had any money. For those that did maybe those winchesters were carried. In my case I remember my dad with a krag 30.40 military, a winchester model of 1917 that had the stock cut down, an for me, a cut down asaki landing rifle. I was being made fun of at the hunter safety class, first one held in state of arizona as I remember, so my mom made dad go down to sam hill hardware on whiskey row in prescott and buy me a rifle. It was a winchester 30.30, which I still have. I think it was a little different perhaps then, I don't remember sport hunting per se. It was serious to put meat on the table. I do remember running the hills at ten and eleven around down with a shotgun or .22. I would be given a certain amount of ammo and would have to account for the use of it. But nobody thought it odd for a kid to be packing. I bought my first pistol and a 16 guage shotgun in a store in prescott around then and nobody blinked. I am sure however in hindsight, the owner of the store had called my dad. I still have the pistol and shotgun. A few years later, we would strap rifles or shotguns on honda 110's in saddle scabbards and run all over the county. I just don't remember a lot of fancy rifles or scopes for that matter around. I do know when the proper use of that winchester 94 was being demonstrated to me, the guy doing it was routinely plugging beer cans at 100yards offhand with it. Again, ammo was expensive, and i had to justify the use of it.
I was born in '58, but what I remember from my earliest years was that my dad and uncles and nearly everyone else shot semi-sporterized SMLE .303's. If "Western" can be interpreted as Western Canada, the No. 1 or No. 4 Lee Enfield with the full length front stock wood cut down were by far the most common, and Savage 99's in .250 or .300 were chosen by the more affluent hunters.
In 1958 my dad hunted SW Oregon with the same rifle he'd hunt with today, a Rem 721 Deluxe in .270 Win. In 1958 my uncle was also using the same rifle he'd be using today, a pre war M-70 in 30-06.
I was -2 in 1958, but if it were 1958 today and I could only have one rifle, it would be a M-70 in 300 H&H. Of course, I wouldn't have only one rifle. I'd have a M-70 FWT in 30-06, a M-70 std in the wildcat 30-338 Win Mag, an M-70 std in 338 Win Mag, and an M-70 in the wildcat 416-375 Ack.
Which is REALLY close to what I have now: 1957 M-70 FWT 30-06, M-70 SS Classic/Edge 30-06, M-70 SS Classic 300 Win/Pacific Research, M-70 SS Classic 338 Win, M-70 SS Classic 416 Rem/McMillan.
I wasn't born until 1959, but I have, and use a 1958 model 70, .264 WinMag, and an early 1960's Colt Sako in .264 as well.
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Oregon45,What a great tread. I was born and raised and currently live just south of you between Corvallis and Eugene. In 1958 I was 9 years old and just starting to tag after dad deer hunting. Around this time dad bought a used Marlin 336A 30-30 and put a Weaver K3 on it. Although he owned many rifles since then, the Marlin was his favorite deer rifle 'till he pasted away 3 years ago. I have that rifle now and use it often. Another of his favorite rifles was a Winchester 95 carbine in 30-40 Krag. He used it for elk hunting. A great uncle had a Savage 99 in 22 HiPower which he swore by. The only center fire rifle my Grandfather owned was another Winchester 95 rifle in 30-40 Krag also. In this area at that time most people were loggers, mill workers, farmers/ranchers and the guns they owned were what they could afford. One friend of mine, his dad only had a Remington model 25 in 32-20 so that's what he hunted with. usually when that little gun popped there was a deer down. Others had mil surplus Mausers and and what not but Krags and Springfields were probably the most popular, usually with the stocks whittled down some. One of dads beat friends bought a Remington 760 in 30-06 when they first came out in the early 50's and put a K4 on it. Dad always gave him a bad time saying that that was too much gun for deer but again it was the only rifle he had. A side note on that Remington is in the mid 60's the old K4 went bad so he bought a Leopold 3X9 which I help him mount and we sighted it in. Using factory 180 gr. corelocks that old gun would would consistently shoot under an inch at 100 yards. I was so impressed I bought one and it shoots just as well and I still have it. Factory bolt guns weren't real popular here mostly because of their weight and length. shorter lighter lever action carbines was the fad because they were handy and we rarely shot over 50 yards.I remember in the mid sixty's just before deer season BiMart would have Winchester 94's on sale for around $75. Too the people in this area opening day of deer season was as important as the Super Bowl is today. We all got together and made drives and although the rifles we had weren't the latest hi tech they all worked. Doc
"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms. The strongest reason for the people to retain the right to keep and bear arms is, as a last resort, to protect themselves against tyranny in government." Thomas Jefferson, 1776
I often hear the term FN and Mauser used in the same light, and that is incorrect...One is an FN action and the other is a Mauser action, the FN is not a Mauser, as seems to be common belief, although it has become an almost acceptable term over the years perhaps, but it's an incorrect term. For what its worth.
Are you saying that the design is different, or is your remark in regards to the attribution?
If I could have afforded it, I'd buy the same rifle that I did about a month ago. A 1958 M70 high comb fwt in 270. The difference? I've spent the past 20 years looking for one and I could have bought it off the rack in '58! I expect it will be my nice weather hunting rifle for the remainder of my hunting days.
It was a neat experience, I bought it from the original owner. He used the 130 grainers for moose, thought they were too explosive for deer. For deer he liked the 160 grainers.
It may not mean much, but for me it's great to know the history of the rifle. Conversely he was very relieved to know the rifle was going to a good home, so we both won!
Anybody who seriously concerns themselves with the adequacy of a Big 7mm for anything we hunt here short of brown bear, is a dufus. They are mostly making shidt up. Crunch! Nite-nite!
I'm several years younger than you but that mirrors my experience in SW Sask. There were 2 M70 in 270 caliber in the general area and they were spoken of in a different tone, something like a top custom would be today.
A few that weren't necessarily affluent but possibly early loonies, chose the M99, even though they could not afford it
Mr. RickF; Thanks for the cool story. Nice rifle find too, by the way.
As for me, the history of a rifle has significant meaning. A buddy has an ancient .300 Savage 99 that was used by a Kootenay rancher that just oozes character. On a personal level, our eldest daughter hunts with a 105 or so year old 6.5 Swede that I remodeled for my late father back in the mid '80's. He passed it to her before he died and it means lots to both of us that she uses Granddad's rifle.
May you have many fair weather hunts with that .270 Rick and may you also put up some photos for us to enjoy it with you!
1958, I had been out of high school about 5 years then and was working on ranches in the Big Bend of Texas and rodeoing professionally at the time..I also did some guiding for my family and friends at that time, and finally settled down and went to work for the El Paso County Sheriffs dept, and started college part time, had a wife and two little boys and guided deer hunts for some friends to make ends meet and pick up some extra bucks....
I still had my 25-35 Win and my dads M-99EG in 250 savage that had served me so well on elk and deer over the last 10 or more years. My family of ranchers all used the 25-35, 30-30, and two uncles used magnums like the 300 Savage and the Win. 95 carbine in 30-40 Krag, and I was in awe of them.
1958 was the year I bought myself two rifles, a 99 Sav. in 308 and a pre 64 M-70 in .270 caliber, my friend and mentor in El Paso was Myer Erlich who owned Geneva Loan, and he would sell me any gun for $5 down and $5 per month, and I was poot'en in tall cotton.
Back then one could get a lot of flack from family and friends over using such big calibers and their ability to destroy a lot of meat, but that came to pass in time.
Lots of Springfield service rifles came out on the NRA market at $14.00 each and 45 autos at $7.50, that was cheap even then, but saleries averaged about $290 per month back then..It was a good time, everybody was an American, no dope on the streets, and if you failed to salute the flag, you could bet on an a$$ whupping, and everyone believed in God, motherhood, and apple pie, John Wayne, Roy Rogers, Gene Autry, and a few others were heros.
With the returning of our soldiers from several wars, the 30-06 became king of the hill and never relinguished that title to this day..:)
Now if you guys want to know what deer, bear and elk hunting was like in 1945, thats when I began "legal" my big game hunting career. Dick shaw and Bill Weaver hunted our ranch and gave all of us a 2.5X Weaver scope and mounts for our low combed rifles, and low and behold they worked once we got some instruction and were told you had to "sight them in" !!:)
hillbillybear; While I do tend to be a little formal, my intent is to show respect to my fellow �Fire members.
It�s something that my folks tried to ingrain in me and I�m trying to pass on to our kids. I figure if I won�t lead by example the offspring aren�t likely to follow, eh?
Thanks again for the photos. Enfield sporters are a sentimental favorite of mine.
Oregon45,What a great tread. I was born and raised and currently live just south of you between Corvallis and Eugene. In 1958 I was 9 years old and just starting to tag after dad deer hunting. Around this time dad bought a used Marlin 336A 30-30 and put a Weaver K3 on it. Although he owned many rifles since then, the Marlin was his favorite deer rifle 'till he pasted away 3 years ago. I have that rifle now and use it often. Another of his favorite rifles was a Winchester 95 carbine in 30-40 Krag. He used it for elk hunting. A great uncle had a Savage 99 in 22 HiPower which he swore by. The only center fire rifle my Grandfather owned was another Winchester 95 rifle in 30-40 Krag also. In this area at that time most people were loggers, mill workers, farmers/ranchers and the guns they owned were what they could afford. One friend of mine, his dad only had a Remington model 25 in 32-20 so that's what he hunted with. usually when that little gun popped there was a deer down. Others had mil surplus Mausers and and what not but Krags and Springfields were probably the most popular, usually with the stocks whittled down some. One of dads beat friends bought a Remington 760 in 30-06 when they first came out in the early 50's and put a K4 on it. Dad always gave him a bad time saying that that was too much gun for deer but again it was the only rifle he had. A side note on that Remington is in the mid 60's the old K4 went bad so he bought a Leopold 3X9 which I help him mount and we sighted it in. Using factory 180 gr. corelocks that old gun would would consistently shoot under an inch at 100 yards. I was so impressed I bought one and it shoots just as well and I still have it. Factory bolt guns weren't real popular here mostly because of their weight and length. shorter lighter lever action carbines was the fad because they were handy and we rarely shot over 50 yards.I remember in the mid sixty's just before deer season BiMart would have Winchester 94's on sale for around $75. Too the people in this area opening day of deer season was as important as the Super Bowl is today. We all got together and made drives and although the rifles we had weren't the latest hi tech they all worked. Doc
Now that you mention it, my grandfather (a WW-I Vet) hunted with a Krag carbine, and shot deer and elk in OR and WA. If I were to hazard a guess, I'd say many "normal" hunters of tha era used a 30-30, but the rifle loonies like bolt actions. My dad was such a rifle loony that he even handloaded his own ammo! I remember even in the early 70s that the 30-30 was extremely common. Maybe it stil is.
1958, I had been out of high school about 5 years then and was working on ranches in the Big Bend of Texas and rodeoing professionally at the time..I also did some guiding for my family and friends at that time, and finally settled down and went to work for the El Paso County Sheriffs dept, and started college part time, had a wife and two little boys and guided deer hunts for some friends to make ends meet and pick up some extra bucks....
I still had my 25-35 Win and my dads M-99EG in 250 savage that had served me so well on elk and deer over the last 10 or more years. My family of ranchers all used the 25-35, 30-30, and two uncles used magnums like the 300 Savage and the Win. 95 carbine in 30-40 Krag, and I was in awe of them.
1958 was the year I bought myself two rifles, a 99 Sav. in 308 and a pre 64 M-70 in .270 caliber, my friend and mentor in El Paso was Myer Erlich who owned Geneva Loan, and he would sell me any gun for $5 down and $5 per month, and I was poot'en in tall cotton.
Back then one could get a lot of flack from family and friends over using such big calibers and their ability to destroy a lot of meat, but that came to pass in time.
Lots of Springfield service rifles came out on the NRA market at $14.00 each and 45 autos at $7.50, that was cheap even then, but saleries averaged about $290 per month back then..It was a good time, everybody was an American, no dope on the streets, and if you failed to salute the flag, you could bet on an a$$ whupping, and everyone believed in God, motherhood, and apple pie, John Wayne, Roy Rogers, Gene Autry, and a few others were heros.
With the returning of our soldiers from several wars, the 30-06 became king of the hill and never relinguished that title to this day..:)
Now if you guys want to know what deer, bear and elk hunting was like in 1945, thats when I began "legal" my big game hunting career. Dick shaw and Bill Weaver hunted our ranch and gave all of us a 2.5X Weaver scope and mounts for our low combed rifles, and low and behold they worked once we got some instruction and were told you had to "sight them in" !!:)
Our paths should have crossed!!
YOU HAVE A PM!!
Agree on the '06. Knew a number of guys on the Sheriff's department, including a guy who was later Sheriff, Mike "something" whom I almost hired just before he became Sheriff. Knew Myer well, and he gave the same deal to all LEO's as was I a bit before your time; a helluva guy. He went to school with my mother and aunt. I lived about three blocks from Weaver's place, between it and El Paso High School and also did some hunting on the Brite Ranch near Big Bend.
hillbillybear; While I do tend to be a little formal, my intent is to show respect to my fellow �Fire members.
It�s something that my folks tried to ingrain in me and I�m trying to pass on to our kids. I figure if I won�t lead by example the offspring aren�t likely to follow, eh?
Thanks again for the photos. Enfield sporters are a sentimental favorite of mine.
Dwayne
I was trained that way too. You sure you aren't from the South.
Member: Clan of the Turdlike People.
Courage is Fear that has said its Prayers
�If we ever forget that we are one nation under God, then we will be a nation gone under.� Ronald Reagan.
My dad got himself a Model 70 Standard in .270 Winchester after he got back from Korea in '53. Cost him $95 and he said the shop had that one and the same gun in .375 H&H for $10 more so he economized.
He'd sold his Savage 99 in .300 Savage to a friend who wanted to use it bear hunting on Japan's Hokkaido Island and needed a replacement.
Bought a Stith 2.75X and had it mounted at the store. He didn't kill a deer with it until fall '58, a muley or blacktail in Modoc County, California. He threw a barbecue back at the air base and met my mom there (she was in the AF, too).
He bought a Model 12 with a Polychoke while he was in Japan, a Colt Woodsman and a 5-in. pre-M27 all within a year. He was a gun loony for sure. He still has them all.
We learned about handloading with that rifle in the 1970s. Didn't have many deer around here then so it ate a lot of 100 and 110 grainers that accounted for groundhogs and crow. Made consecutive kills on a couple of crows about 150 yards away with it one afternoon in '81. Best shots I've ever made.
Mom died last summer, but Dad still has the Model 70 that brought them together; his most recent game with it was a pronghorn near Rock River, Wyo., in fall '02. It was wearing a Leupold 4X by then.
He turned 80 last October and was a little frail so I got him some Managed Recoil loads to dust a small whitetail. They grouped 1-in. high into a .75 cluster with no change to his hot 130 BT handload zero.
He felt poorly and didn't go hunting last fall. Two weeks ago he was visiting with my brother who lives in Colorado and had a mild heart attack. Turned out he needed a triple bypass.
He looks and feels better than he has in years and is going to convalesce in Estes Park with my brother over the summer. We are conspiring to get the Model 70 out to him and let him show it to another pronghorn and perhaps fill a cow elk tag, too, before he comes back to Tennessee.
You might be able to find a war prize mauser during this time. I did make a list of some of the new hits from this time. I was born 10 years later so forgive me.
1) 300 Roy from Southgate. 2) 338 Alaskan Model 70. 3) Model 24 7X61 Sharpe and Hart 4) Flaig's custom FN 30/06
1958: at that time I was 3 years old. My Old Man had an FN Mauser barreled action that he bought through a mail order outfit. The barreled action had a hinged mag box and a sliding safety and the modern streamlined bolt shroud. He bought a walnut blank and a piece of buffalo horn and built the stock out of those. The fore end tip, grip cap and butt plate were all made of the buffalo horn. He said he should never have made the butt plate out of the horn because it was so slippery. The rifle was a .270 Win and was sold about 1961 in Wolf Point MT when we needed some cash to move.
My Hunter Safety Instructor was a cop who had a Schultz and Larsen 7X61 with a scope. It was the powerful rifle I had ever seen. I had a teacher in the 8th grade who was a handloader and a wildcater. He had a 17 caliber on a 218 Bee case. He was a gun nut it seems. Some friends rifles I remember are a Husqvarna 270 20 inch bbl with a Tradewinds (I think) scope, a M70 30-06 with a peep sight, my Rem721 30-06 with open sights. My wealthy buddy was a fan of Francis Sell so he bought a Win M71 in 348 WCF. Recoil was a problem and he later traded for a M70 Westerner in 264 mag. He had to handload 129 gr Hornady round nose (out of production now) because the original 264 mags used double diameter bullets and a real short throat. The muzzle blast was terrific and would raise a dust cloud from prone. One rich friend had two rifles, a Win m94 in 30-30 and a cut down SMLE 303!We hunted the Sierras for Mule Deer and later the foothills of Lake COunty for Blacktails. I went pig hunting near China Camp above the Carmel River with friends. They used a Savage 99 takedown in 300, a M94 30-30, and I used a Mossberg 12 gauge bolt action. We almost got killed when the truck brakes failed on the way out. I hunted on MT Umunum in Santa Clara County, CA with an Indian family from Old Almaden that used a 25-35 M94 rifle and a sporterized Krag with a receiver sight. The Krag user was real proud that he had bore sighted the rifle and considered it close enough. This was all in the late 50s early 60s
Shrapnel, i dont know if you have ever read about "Old Ephram" but it is said he was the last Grizz killed in Utah, shot by a sheep herder with a 25-35.in a little book i have about the story he claimed to have killed countless black's and Grizz with that rifle.
I guess the little valley i grew up in stayed western longer than most, when i started hunting in the early 90's, my gun and my brothers gun may well have been used in the 50's, his an SMLE 303, mine a '94 30-30. even my buddies were packing the likes of M99's in 243, 250-3000, '03 springfields and Enfields.. but i dont think any of use were really poor, by 18, we all had new bolt guns with a Leupold on top.
that grizz i was talking about is rather famous in northern Utah, he even has a big stone monument built for him near the kill site.I think his size is greatly exagerated tho, it is said he was nearly 11 foot and 1100 pounds! the Smithsonian has his skull.
1958, I had been out of high school about 5 years then and was working on ranches in the Big Bend of Texas and rodeoing professionally at the time..I also did some guiding for my family and friends at that time, and finally settled down and went to work for the El Paso County Sheriffs dept, and started college part time, had a wife and two little boys and guided deer hunts for some friends to make ends meet and pick up some extra bucks....
I still had my 25-35 Win and my dads M-99EG in 250 savage that had served me so well on elk and deer over the last 10 or more years. My family of ranchers all used the 25-35, 30-30, and two uncles used magnums like the 300 Savage and the Win. 95 carbine in 30-40 Krag, and I was in awe of them.
1958 was the year I bought myself two rifles, a 99 Sav. in 308 and a pre 64 M-70 in .270 caliber, my friend and mentor in El Paso was Myer Erlich who owned Geneva Loan, and he would sell me any gun for $5 down and $5 per month, and I was poot'en in tall cotton.
Back then one could get a lot of flack from family and friends over using such big calibers and their ability to destroy a lot of meat, but that came to pass in time.
Lots of Springfield service rifles came out on the NRA market at $14.00 each and 45 autos at $7.50, that was cheap even then, but saleries averaged about $290 per month back then..It was a good time, everybody was an American, no dope on the streets, and if you failed to salute the flag, you could bet on an a$$ whupping, and everyone believed in God, motherhood, and apple pie, John Wayne, Roy Rogers, Gene Autry, and a few others were heros.
With the returning of our soldiers from several wars, the 30-06 became king of the hill and never relinguished that title to this day..:)
Now if you guys want to know what deer, bear and elk hunting was like in 1945, thats when I began "legal" my big game hunting career. Dick shaw and Bill Weaver hunted our ranch and gave all of us a 2.5X Weaver scope and mounts for our low combed rifles, and low and behold they worked once we got some instruction and were told you had to "sight them in" !!:)
Thanks for bringing back some good memories. I'd imagine you bought some things from Momsen, Dunnegan and Ryan (sp?), too.
All around Western rifles, as I recall: Win model 94 and 70 Rem 720, 721, and a few 722's and Savage 99.
Plus assorted military rifles like Mausers and 1903's and Krags.
Calibers were 30-30, 30-40, 32 Spl, 30-06, 300 Savage, 8mm, 25-35, occasional 348, and, oh that late comer -- what was it-- maybe 270 something or other.
Thanks for bringing back some good memories. I'd imagine you bought some things from Momsen, Dunnegan and Ryan (sp?), too.
Almost! Dunnigan. You from El Paso? I went to school with one of the Momsen's, son of the principal; don't recall who was who but it was Gus and Leo. They were wholesalers and I don't recall they sold direct unless you had an "in". I handled their insurance and knew them well.
I was only 6 in 1958, but when I started hunting about 5 years after that, most guys carried "sporterized" Springfields, 1917 Enfields or a wide assortment of everything from Remington 81s, Win 94s, Marlin 336s, etc. The guys who were the most dedicated hunters and who traveled out of state generally had Win Model 70s in .270 or .30-06. Jack O'Connor was pretty influential, I think.
Thanks for bringing back some good memories. I'd imagine you bought some things from Momsen, Dunnegan and Ryan (sp?), too.
Almost! Dunnigan. You from El Paso? I went to school with one of the Momsen's, son of the principal; don't recall who was who but it was Gus and Leo. They were wholesalers and I don't recall they sold direct unless you had an "in". I handled their insurance and knew them well.
In the 1958 GUN DIGEST the basic Remington 721 is listed at $95.25, the "standard" Model 70 Winchester at $129.95. This may not seem like much, but it's the same difference as between rifle costing $500 today and one costing $682.
The Savage 99-EG is listed at $113.65. The lowest grade of Weatherby Mark V was $265.
I have some old AMERICAN RIFLEMANS from that period but ain't going to drag them out right now. I do remember magazine ads in the early 60s that had SMLEs for as little as $10-15, military Mausers for $20, and Springfields of various kinds from $30 to $40.
I got my M721 .30-'06 in '54, and my Dad paid Sears & Roebuck $88 for it. I also picked up a surplus M94 Swede 6.5X55 carbine a couple of years later for $15 IIRC.
I still have the actions of both rifles.
jim
LCDR Jim Dodd, USN (Ret.) "If you're too busy to hunt, you're too busy."
The 'o6 for all around use. At its velocities, standard bullets work well. Just match the weight to the game, with 180s or 200s being do-it-all choices. Back then, 400yds was a really long poke (still is) and people tended to hunt closer. Even in the West, 200yds and under is probably the majority of big game shots.
"Civilized men are more discourteous than savages because they know they can be impolite without having their skulls split, as a general thing." Robert E. Howard
Hard to pick, but would probably give the nod to the order listed. Never hurts to have a backup .
I wasn't even a twinkle in my mother's eye in 1958 and for many moons thereafter. But I really enjoy reading the posts from those who were around back then.
A good principle to guide me through life: “This is all I have come to expect, standard lackluster performance. Trust nothing, believe no one and realize it will only get worse…”
Hmmm, I guess I am the only one old enough to have been there in 1958, at least that could read and write!
The 30-06 was king, the 30-30 definatly still had its calling, and the 270 was in the hunt and gaining ground..
The 30-06 was king because the boys were back from several world wars and they loved it, the springfields were selling for $7.50 each from NRA, and they flooded the country with 30-06s and 45 autos..It was a better world in the 50s...Anti gun nuts didn't come out during daylight hours.
An old thread I know and the topic is set 2 full years before the world was graced with my presence but a lot of the stories seem familiar to me anyway.
One of the most interesting threads on the 'fire imo.
2 years before my arrival, but I believe my dad was feeding my 2 older sisters, and my brother who was brought home and put under the Christmas tree in '56 with his Remington 721 in 257 Roberts or the sporterised '03-a3 '06 I remember from a few years later. This was back here in Maine, not a western choice perhaps. I do recall a large pile of pistol trophies and a lot of bullet casting and hand loading going on too.
There is no retreat but in submission and slavery!
I just read this entire thread... Very enjoyable... Don't know how I missed it the 1st time around...
I don't recall my Dad ever owning a bolt rifle other than a Sporterized Krag. He always thought that was as good as it got.
My hunting mentor owned a Sporterized '03-A3 with a M-70 stock on it. Never had a scope on it until he was in his '70's.
I was never fortunate to inherit any guns of any kind. But in 1958, I was a gun nut even then... At the ripe ol' age of seven, all my rifles were whittled (roughly) out of slaps of lumber. I had a .30-30, a .32 Spec., a .30-06, and a BAR. Those were the only guns I'd ever heard of...
GH
"As you walk thru life, don't be surprised that there are fewer people that you encounter seeking truth than those seeking confirmation of what they already believe!"
i dont want ATKINSON HUNTING , to feel all alone, i got out of high school in may of 1957, we lived in rangley ,colo. n.w. colo.about all i did growing up was hunt and fish. i started hunting cottontails by myself at 9 yrs old with a savage single shot .22 dove, quail, phesant,& ducks, with a .410 savage single shot.when i was 12 yr. old a friend of my mother gave me a 44-40 win. rifle. octgone barrel, damn thing weighed a ton loaded, so i would only put 4 rds. in it at a time. killed my first mulie& first elk with it.both inside of 75 yards, my next big game all around kill anything rifle was a rem.721 in .270,it was my super gun, shot like a lazer, with iron sights.i will agree that the 30-06 was the gun of choice for most hunters back then, with 30-30 and 300 savage also in the running, but i thought my .270 was a lot sexier and it was faster than a 30-06. i killed bear, you got a bear tag with your deer lic. back then no extra charge, elk, mulies, mountian lion, woodchucks, coyotes, and everything it was legal to kill with my .270. and im 75 yrs old now and still use it every fall. its got a scope on it now as i cant see as good as i used to.i still guide hunters every year and i still have my 721.i got when i was 14 yrs old.rio7
My personal pick, which I forgot to add in the original post, would be a Model 70 Alaskan in 338 Winchester Magnum.
I must say, three and a half years after I wrote that post, my personal pick today is the Model 70 in 30-06. I'm no longer willing to tolerate recoil above that level, unless I have to.
In '58, I was 9 yrs old but I had my own 'J C Higgins' mod 101.25 (Sears and Roebuck) ha, 410 bolt action shotgun. I killed a lot of squirrels & rabbits with it. Still have it.
About this time my dad borrowed a sporterized 303 B E. The guy was a family friend and he had done a beautiful job (I thot as a kid) finishing the stock.
I remember WELL looking at that rifle and having a 'warm fuzzy' feeling. That's when I became a rifle loony. and didn't know it; neither did my dad for another 12-14 yrs.
I didn't know much about hunting out West but EVERYBODY knew about the 06, and Win M 70s soooo.....
In 1958, I was 21. My battery was a Western Field 87 (Stevens made) .22 LR semi-auto, a 12 ga Ithica 37, and for a rifle a custom stocked Jap 6.5 that the seller told me was a .257 Roberts, so that is what I shot in it. The .25 bullets made an awful sound on the way to the target, but in retrospect it was amazingly accurate with the under size bullets. Minute of jackrabbit and coyote for sure, even to way out there. I had an uncle that was often broke, so he used me rather than a pawn shop to hock whatever handgun he might have. Always felt sorry for him and let him buy them back at cost when he was flush again.
Most of the folks that I knew, were still using some type military surplus, either stock or customized, or a lever gun. It was about this time that I ran into a man at the range who was kind enough to let me shoot his Model 70 .243, First one I ever saw. We had a rich family friend (oil) in west Texas that had three Model 70s in .270, .30-06, and .264. I have that pre-war .270 and it will go to one of my rancher daughters. jack
"Do not blame Caesar, blame the people...who have...rejoiced in their loss of freedom....Blame the people who hail him when he speaks of the 'new, wonderful, good, society'...to mean ,..living fatly at the expense of the industrious." Cicero
In an article from one of the 1963 American Rifleman magazines, it is mentioned that the Winchester model 70 factory spec for accuracy was 3" for factory ammo. Curious bit of trivia as compared to the standards tossed around today.
Imagine your grave on a windy winter night. You've been dead for 70 years. It's been 50 since a visitor last paused at your tombstone..... Now explain why you're in a pissy mood today.
'58 was a bit before my time, but my Dad had a sporterized 03A3 Springfield and his Dad had a sporterized 1917 Enfield during that time period. Both had original military barrels and receiver peep sights. When I started hunting in the early '70s, I carried Dad's Springfield and he carried Grandpa's Enfield.
In 1958 I had a Rem.721 in .06 with a 4x Weaver on it and I was well armed. I was 15 then and hunted Colorado and California, killing five deer four bucks and one doe.
Don't know exactly what the all-around western rifle would have been in 1958 but I was 8 yrs. old and that was about the time I became fascinated by sporterized military stuff, which was pretty common then, IIRC. Most of it was Springfields and Lee-Enfields from what I heard from an older cousin. Back then I thought the .22LR was pretty hot cause I had never seen anything bigger and the boxes carried that warning about being dangerous cause of that one mile range. The first time I saw a 30-06 round it blew my mind. I think those memories of sporters back in the 50's are responsible for me owning a couple today; a Kimber sporterized Mod.96 Swede and a sporterized #4 Mk I Lee-Enfield.
Many opinions here, but the 30-06 has been prominent since it's introduction over 100 years ago.
Certainly the Model 70 is the rifle I'd pick to be in the lead, but with the great availability of rifles through the DCM program, I'd guess that mil-surps were very prevalent!
In 1958 I had a Rem.721 in .06 with a 4x Weaver on it and I was well armed. I was 15 then and hunted Colorado and California, killing five deer four bucks and one doe.
That would do the job!
I have my Dad's, set up the same way.
Sycamore
p/s 150g for deer, 180g for elk, 'cause they're bigger, dummy!
This is a great thread. It brings back many fond memories. I don't remember the first year I hunted but it was probably about 1948 or 49. My memories mirror those of Shrapnel and Mule Deer. The rifle of the Eastern plains of Montana was a little different from the mountain rifle. Not a lot,but for goats and the River Breaks the shots could be long. Most common were as mentioned, Army surplus Mauser's, Springfields, Enfields (both American and British). The 8m/m was used some but not in favor by most hunters as the arc of the heavy military bullet was not optimum for long range. Only the higher income types had a model 70 Win. My Dad had a 95 Win. rifle in 30-03 and was in great demand as a loner by those that went "up west" to hunt Elk. The 30-04 (both bolt and lever guns) were considered great killers with the standard 220 gr. round nose bullet. The Win 94 (30-30-32 spec - 25-35 etc) and Savage 99's were the standard saddle gun carried by the ranchers and cowboys. Every town had a gun tinker (gun loonie) that put on sights and did repairs. The Jap. 7.7's were re chambered to 300 Savage and 6.5's to 6.5x57. Most ranchers did not reload as a box of 20 shells would last 5 to 10 years. My first hunting rifle was a 722 Rem. in 300 Savage. What else in a .30 cal will do it with a "do it all" mind set. I could have bought a model 70 for more money but went with the Rem. as the difference in cost would buy enough ammo for years to come.
Killed lots of deer, 2 bear, and other stuff until a 95 Win.in a 30-40 showed up in the rack of the gun store. Traded with some "boot" and still have that one. Along about 1957 with a wife and young daughter I upgraded again to a 1917 Rem 30-06. The plan was to hunt with it until I could afford to "bore it out" to a 300 H&H. This was the ultimate long distance gun in my corner of the World. Well, money was tight and I hunted with the issued sites for 5 or 6 years. It worked just fine. I was young and didn't mind carrying it. My wife bought me a Weaver K-6 with a post for Christmas. I got out my hacksaw and files and had a go at it. A gunsmith drilled and tapped it and I mounted the scope. I still have it and the scope. It still shoots 3/4 in. at 100 yds. Lots of deer, goats and some Elk fell to this one. Later a Ruger77 300 Win Mag became my go to hunting rig. A Weaver K-4 worked on that too.
Seems like a M70 264 Win Mag shooting 140gr Partitions, with a Leupy 3-9 or 6x of some sort on top, wood stocked with scars and worn bluing would pretty much sum up "All American Hunting Rifle" for me anyways.
In the 1958 GUN DIGEST the basic Remington 721 is listed at $95.25, the "standard" Model 70 Winchester at $129.95. This may not seem like much, but it's the same difference as between rifle costing $500 today and one costing $682.
The Savage 99-EG is listed at $113.65. The lowest grade of Weatherby Mark V was $265.
I have some old AMERICAN RIFLEMANS from that period but ain't going to drag them out right now. I do remember magazine ads in the early 60s that had SMLEs for as little as $10-15, military Mausers for $20, and Springfields of various kinds from $30 to $40.
I just grabbed an American Rifleman dated December 1948 that has a price tag of .35 per copy on the front cover.
New 1911 Colt .45 was $65.00 postpaid from Klien's, same price as a K-22 Masterpiece.
Special! Enfield 30/06 DEER RIFLE, model 1917 in very good shooting condition for $44.50.
L. C. Smith dbl. bbl. shotgun, all calibers, $96.10.
Ithaca 37 $83.50.
And you could open an "easy payment plan" at Klien's.
In the classifieds, I find a pre-war model 70 in .22 Hornet with a model 440 Weaver scope, all in excellent condition for $135.00.
Couldn't find any model 70s or 721s.
In 1948 I worked tying wires on a Case wire-tie hay baler for .50 per hour. That was my night job and then after the hay got too dry to bale, we hauled bales for three cents per bale.
Things have changed!
The Mayans had it right. If you�re going to predict the future, it�s best to aim far beyond your life expectancy, lest you wind up red-faced in a bunker overstocked with Spam and ammo.
In the 1958 GUN DIGEST the basic Remington 721 is listed at $95.25, the "standard" Model 70 Winchester at $129.95. This may not seem like much, but it's the same difference as between rifle costing $500 today and one costing $682.
The Savage 99-EG is listed at $113.65. The lowest grade of Weatherby Mark V was $265.
I have some old AMERICAN RIFLEMANS from that period but ain't going to drag them out right now. I do remember magazine ads in the early 60s that had SMLEs for as little as $10-15, military Mausers for $20, and Springfields of various kinds from $30 to $40.
After several years of saving and dreaming, I bought my first "high powered" centerfire rifle at the age of 18 in 1961: a Model 70 Fwt. in .30-06. It cost me $102 and change at Fed-Mart in Houston. Even then, I was thinking about hunting as many North American species as I could, and I never imagined that I would own more than one big game rifle. Grancel Fitz's writings had convinced me that the '06 was all that I would ever need (BTW, he was right).
The "old-timers" that I had hunted with since I was 14 used a variety of rifles: a 721 in .270 (bought around 1954), a 722 in .257 Roberts (bought about the same time), a Model 70 Fwt in .243 and a Savage 99 in .300 Savage. My best friend's dad had a stock Krag in .30-40 which I had shot periodically since I was about 12. Lots of folks still shot .30-30s, mostly Model 94 Winchesters, but I can remember a fair number of Marlin 336s (one of which I used to shoot my first deer).
Another friend's family had a ranch down on the coastal plain and everyone shot .300 Savages. Another friend was one of several offspring of a well-to-do attorney. They all shot Weatherbys of one variety or another. My friend, however, preferred a Mannlicher-Schoenauer carbine in 7x57 that he found in a gun shop in Beeville, TX.
Most of these folks hunted every year in Texas, but most went to Colorado and Wyoming to hunt, as well.
Ben
Some days it takes most of the day for me to do practically nothing...
I was tromping the hills in '58 and saw rifles like the 30-40/.303/.300 Savage/.270 and 30-06 and alot of 30-30's/35 Rems and 32 Specials.The all around rifle was as it is today, the 30-06 and .270 Winchester.If you owned one of those,you were a real hunter in those days.And the '06/.270 debate was as strong then as it is today!
However, I was indeed alive in 1958, already a seasoned hunter of 6 years, and this is what I was using - a Springfield '03.
1894 .30-30 sounds right. It is my understanding that even today, the 1894 is the all time sales leader for high powered rifles. I guess the AR15 coming late to the party has a long way to go to catch it.
But did you know that #2 on the all-time sales list is the Marlin 336.
Between the Winchester 94 and the Marlin 336, I would say the lever gun easily wins the contest. So I would agree with you and say the 1894 is the all-around Western rifle of 1958. Ah, the year of my birth... Such a fine year.
I would die a very happy man if we could just turn America back to that time.
I'd certainly turn the clock back to get the great hunting to be had then. I don't think younger hunters really know how great it could be. In some areas of the West deer numbers were unbelievable. In the early 60's I hunted the Salmon, Idaho area a lot, and my family and I killed many great mule deer each year.
What do you pick? If you were alive then, what did you pick? 
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