Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Handguns 44 Mag/45 Colt

Wieght is wieght and niether bullet expands. You can not shot the same bullet in both a 44 and a 45 Colt they have to be different diameter and therefore are not the same bullet. Even a 320 grain 44 Hard Cast for what ever reason does not out penetrate an equall wieght equal shape in 45 cal. Why I do not know, but if you want I'll PM you John Linebaughs number and you can ask him what he's seen.

Wow! That sure doesn't make sense....

From a kinetic energy standpoint, the smaller diameter projectile, weighing the same as the larger projectile, given the same mass and velocity, should penetrate more deeply into the same medium than the larger diameter projectile. The identical mass is off set by the greater diameter. The greater diameter suggests greater friction on the medium being impacted. Greater friction would decrease penetration.

This is the theoretical answer.

Dan

LOL! That was funny Mauserkid!

Boy, I agree with you Nebraska. the colt is not legal to hunt with ??

In my hunting experience with handguns, I have found the .45 (of any ilk -- Colt, Casull, etc), kill better than he little .429. Believe it or not, the .45 is a step up that is more significant than one would think. Like jwp said, there seems to be a sweet spot in meplat size that in my experience is in the 78 to 80% range. I have tested .475 caliber bullets that weighed 500 grains (Barnes flat-point) running 2,150 fps against my .475 Linebaugh with a 420 gran hardcast at 1,350 and the handgun consistently outpenetrates it -- IN A STRAIGHT LINE. All the Barnes flat-points veered off course and left the penetration box. Heavier bullet, smaller meplat, higher velocity. There are a lot of factors that contribute to this and I haven't had enough coffee to get into it -- yet, but will return more awake and with more details.......

I love my .44s, but will take my .454 over them every time when hunting big game -- and I don't run my Casull up to Casull velocities.......

I think it's a theoretical energy minimum requirement. Those who make the rules aren't handgun hunters!

This is my 1'st post here, though i have been lurking for some time.
Elkhunter, It is actually legal to hunt with the 45lc in wyoming, as established by Kelly Brost formally of Cast Performance.
A cartridge just has to be loaded commercialy in a load that meets the energy requirments.
Hope this helps.

Whitworth,

I think you have a bit of a point there when comparing your .475 to rifles. Where penetration is concerned, there seems to be a �sweet spot� for velocity range. The English found this with dangerous game rifles a long time ago, and learned that once you exceeded 2,300 fps (or there abouts), you actually had some diminishing returns.

Whitworth,

The added velocity of 2100 fps, doesn't necessarily equate to increased penetration over a similarly sized projectile in weight and caliber, striking at 1300 fps. But then, you already know this. But for those who may not, a speeding car, crashing into a stopped car will suffer catastrophic damage as will the stopped car. A slowly moving vehicle, striking a parked car, will push the parked car out of the way, with significanly less damage to both entities. From a kinetic energy/friction standpoint, higher velocity, equals greater friction upon impact and more resistance to penetration.

Handguns should not be considered "impact" killers. Penetration should be the watchword. Reach and exceed the vitals and open up two holes if possible.

I shoot a lot of .45-70 and shot two nearly identical bucks at different ranges with the same projectile/load. In the case of the 25 yard buck, penetration was enough to reach the heart, but the 300 grain bullet did not exit because the impact velocity (nearly 2000fps) exceeded its normal design parameters. It literally came apart, turned itself inside out and used up all its energy in the target. That's not a bad thing, but I believe for hunting applications, I want to exit the animal.

On the 150 yard buck, the bullet was now travelling at a much more sedate 1500 fps (based on loading tables) and the bullet held together, destroyed the heart and exited with a wound that only marginally differed from the entrance wound. This, after breaking a rib going in and one going out! The difference was based on impact velocity and resistence to it.

Now, I know one example does not make a rule, but the "rule" already exists and the example simply illustrates it.

Regards

Dan

That makes sense on the surface, but it's not necessarily so. Jacketed bullets offer less resistance when traveling through just about any medium. The best analogy I can give is is the ballistic vest, which adheres to the metal of the bullet to stop it. Lead bullets are much easier to stop because lead has a much less smooth surface than brass, bronze or copper.

So this is why I said the Belt Mountain changes things.

I guess we'll just have to disagree on this one. I've read the results of several of Linebaugh's clincs and, while I believe they do have a great deal of validity, I don't necessarily consider his tests to be scientific in the sense of keeping a tight control for comparison. This is really splitting hairs though, because in the real world, his tests do show what that particular bullt/load/gun combination will do.

Paper is not an accepted test medium and it's very difficult to put controls on it. How it's stacked, what the source is for the paper, what the density is, etc. Paper is also very hygroscopic, and very subject to changes in air humidity. Therefore, I think it's reasonable to see results that fly in the face of physics, because you don't have tight controls on the test medium.

Calibrated 10% ordnance gelatin is the most accepted test medium because it's so easy to calibrate and assure that every bullet tested will be fired through precisely the same medium.

In 10% ordnance gelatin, I think you will see that, all else being equal, the .44 will always penetrate deeper than the .45; and I'll bet that even Linebaugh will agree with that.

I have seen paper tests where a bullet will travel almost 30" in one shot, and then the next shot, it will travel 22." That's a big difference, and you don't see that sort of thing in ordnance gelatin. (which demonstrates the consistency of the medium)

However, Linebaugh uses paper and bone because he doesn't see any relavence to the use of ordnance gelatin; and for what he does with a handgun, that makes sense. So even though his testing method is much less scientific from the standpoint of control, it works for him. The test medium he chooses, may have a wide variance (in comparison to gelatin), but his chosen medium more closely matches the game he chases; so his choice in test medium makes sense.

I think you may be thinking CUP instead of PSI. The Ruger will handle 28,500psi or 33,000CUP.

It's kind of a silly comparison though because if you choose a .45 Colt and then try to match the ballistics of the .44 magnum, you're really defeating the purpose. The .45 Colt offers greater performance (although I maintain not enough to be a deciding factor to any hunt - again, at Ruger velocities), because it throws a heavier bullet.

Dan, I two want to poke two holes through every animal, and if I don't have an exit, I am not happy -- unless of course the bullet has travel lengthwise through a large animal.

It was a .470 NE double that I tested my .475 against. You also need to realize that the velocities the NE cartriges supposedly achieved were in long test barrels and the doubles that were/are used in the field could scarcely duplicate the claimed velocities, yet they still penetrated and killed with aplomb (of course they experienced failures due to poor bullet construction/technology of the day).

Byron I would be interested in seeing the documentation regarding that. Can you post it here? I have friends that would love to be able to legally hunt big game with their 45 LC.

Below is a quote form the regulations and I see they have changed the wording. They used to list the handgun calibers that did not meet the 2 inch, .35 caliber ctiteria such as the ,454 Casull, .44 Rem Mag and .41 Rem Mag. The 45 LC was excluded due to commercial loadings. While I always thought the 45 LC to be an excellent hunting cartridge when loaded to its potential I understood why it was exclded back then. That being said you would be best to have proof of this on you in the field.... as I just called the Cheyenne Game and Fish office and the person that answered the phone said no it isn't. A case of not knowing the law perhaps? I will follow up on this with a couple of calls to a couple of different local wardens.

Wyoming statutes authorize the use of a firearm which has a barrel
bore diameter of at least twenty-three-hundredths (23/100) of an inch and
is chambered to fire a center-fire cartridge not less than two (2) inches in
overall length, including a soft or expanding point bullet seated to a normal
depth or a muzzle-loading rifle which has a barrel bore diameter of at least
40/100 of an inch and a charge of at least fifty (50) grains of black powder
or equivalent, or a muzzle-loading specialty single shot handgun which has
a barrel length of not less than ten (10) inches, a bore diameter of at least
45/100 of an inch and which propels a projectile of two hundred forty
(240) grains at not less than five hundred (500) foot pounds at one hundred
(100) yards. In addition, the Commission authorizes any other cartridge
fired from a firearm that has a barrel bore diameter of at least thirty-five
hundredths (.35) of an inch and the cartridge generally delivers at least five
hundred (500) pounds of impact at one hundred (100) yards and cartridges
used are loaded with a lead, soft or expanding bullet point.

As per my conversation with a Wyoming Game & Fish Warden this morning.....45 long colt is not legal for big or trophy game - unless you can find a factory load with published ballistics showing 500 foot-pounds at 100 yards. I know a guy can load a Super Blackhawk or other modern .45 LC to do this. But, problem is published ballistics and our statute.

Great thread. . . . .

But the 44 magnum has Elmer Keith and the 45 doesn't.

'nuff said.

BMT

Ah yes, you are right about Elmer Keith, but if there was a sufficiently strong .45 Colt being produced in his day, he'd have never looked back!

Whitworth's right; Elmer originally wanted a hot .45 Colt. If the Ruger Blackhawk existed back in the day, Elmer would have never even looked at the .44.

I used to get ribbed by a fellow hunter about using cast bullets, when the jacketed tech. was so good...

He always would say, cast does not expand.....
My answer was how much more expansion does a .452 need?

Love those big holes all the way through......


Later

Elkhunter
Things that make you say hmmmmmm. Maybe I need to follow up on this too, and find out just what the heck is going on, because I know several years ago a number of people in the shooting sports industry through contact with the wyo g&f educated them as to the fact that cartridges such as the 45lc were now being loaded to much higher levels of performance. It was at that time that the wording was changed to say there was a minimum 35 calber 500fpe at 100 yards requirement and they dropped the caliber specific wording. The documentation you seek is right there at the bottom of your post. It was (at that time anyway) supposed to make eligible rounds like the 45lc to hunt big game in wyo.
Now, having said all that, I hope the wyo g&f for whatever reason hasn't changed their position.
Please, do let me know what you find out, and like I said, I'll be following up on this too.

Elmer used the .45 Colt plenty. He blew one up with hot loads. He just didn't like the Colt for hot-rodding, back in the day.