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Abner There is no web site that I have found. But i have seen the cataloge. The prices are great if it works out. A gunsmith friend of mine order two of the cheap 45-70's and i think maybe a 500NE in the medium grade for a custmer. I'm thinking of the cheap 06 and the med. 450NE myself. I showed him a pic and a small artical from one of my dealer magazine; that was talking about the shot show. He love's the baikals and EAA guns so he stated making some calls. Also the cheaps have the regulating screaw but the higher prices don't so they most be factory regulated. They will deffently sell a pile of them if it works out. 358mt

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OK - Next question. I'm looking to reload for my 45/70 S/S. If I see a load for cast bullets of 405grs, can I use the same loading for a jacketed bullet of the same weight? In other words, is there any difference in pressure when using cast vs jacketed bullets with the same powder and powder amount? Thanks

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Originally Posted by Abner
OK - Next question. I'm looking to reload for my 45/70 S/S. If I see a load for cast bullets of 405grs, can I use the same loading for a jacketed bullet of the same weight? In other words, is there any difference in pressure when using cast vs jacketed bullets with the same powder and powder amount? Thanks


No. You will have higher pressure with the jacketed bullet.

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Most reloading manuals give jacketed bullet specs. Do not be afraid os the cast loads they are spectacular. Always use the springfield loads until confirmed by manufacturer that higher pressure loads are safe. I shot a bull moose a few years back with 500 grain hard cast, water squelched over 70 gr Geox FF that went in left rear hip( I know there are no hips on the front) and exited rt front shoulder taking out both joints and about six inches of spine. never found the bullet to see how it did. I kinda guess I know.

I have a Lyman cast reloading manual that has a lot of really good info if you decide to go old school.
Randy


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Medicman - I don't know much (anything) about cast bullets. What is the benifits of shooting them? Are the suposed to act like solids, or expand? Are they cheaper or expensive? I know I don't want to pour my own, so are there any good ones that you can buy? Thanks, Abner

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sorry for delay
I cast because it is fun and pride of making the bullets you harvest game with.

they act more like solids than expanding, but start at .458" to start with so pretty impressive performance.

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I have a 405 gr mould from Lee that drops bullets weighing 407 grains cast from wheel weights, and dropped in water. They are plenty hard for my loads, and are very accurate. I'm tossing mine downrange at 1300 ft/sec, and they penetrate well.

You live in the USA, so there are lots of good sources of quality lead bullets for almost all calibres and cartridges.


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Scope Rings for the Baikal/EEA/USSG/Remington SPR22/MP221

As you can see from the heading, this double rifle has been imported and sold by several different entities, although it appears EEA of Rockledge, FL is in back of all of them. Presently, USSG, Inc. seems to be offering them, and the Internet auction and sales sites offer them continuously. They are currently available in 30-06, and 45-70. Too bad the 9.3X74R version is not now imported, although Baikal sells them in various other countries. With it now being loaded in the US, it would be a wonderful, utilitarian double of intersting potential. The great virtue of the MP221 Artemida/SPR 22 is its entry level cost of under $1000 for the 45-70 and under $800 for the '06.

Another excellent cartridge which is offered by Baikal in this rifle, but not in the States, is the Russian battle cartridge, the 7.62X54R. It is about the same power level as the '06, rimmed, which is good for doubles, and best of all, the ammo is readily available at a very low price, in quantities. You might have noticed that the cheap '06 miltary ammo has essentially disappeared, unlikely to return. The 7.62X54R is well behind that cycle and likely to be with us for a long time into the future, based on the flood of rifles being imported for that cartridge.

Now, as to the scope rings. I have a double Remington/Baikal rifle in each caliber. Both are scoped. The 11 mm rail the rifle has is an airgun rail. Scoffing at that? Don't. Airguns are known for viscious, scope-busting recoil that loosens rings, as the airgun recoils forward and backward with each shot. Of the two different rings I have, the one made by Beeman for their high grade air rifles is extraordinally rugged. It is heavily made, with lots of screws to hold it, AND it has a stud that fits down into a slot in the rail itself, effectively keeping it from creeping. I'd be shocked if this thing doesn't hold well.

I see a lot of chatter on Internet sites the rifle might take a .22 caliber set of rings. That is mistaken. The .22 rail is 9 mm and has an arched top. I originally tried a set of .22 cal Leupolds on my '06, and it gripped poorly, but worse, was noticably cocked off to the side. The .22 cal rail is round-topped, but the 11 mm rail is flat-topped. I personally would judge .22 cal rings as unsuitable on this rifle from their appearance. Further, they lack the fast-holding, protruding stud at the base.

BTW, I notice a lot of chatter about the operating pressure level suitable for the 45-70 version. Because the owner's manual has the SAAMI compliant warning on it, many are equating the strength level of the action with the "Trapdoor Springfield". Obviously, a pretty silly thought that a modern arm made more than 100 years after the Trapdoor and chambered in the '06 would have equal action strength with the Trapdoor. Rebarrel a Trapdoor to 30-06 and see how that works for you. By far the best exploration of the subject on the loads suitable and safe for the 45-70 version is on www.kifaruforums.com. I'm always interested in feedback from you, but please do not send me messages on this point unless you have read the mentioned materials so you can see I have been exposed to "bolt thrust" and all the other considerations of double barrel rifle action strength. AND, remember, the SAAMI warning is present for the Marlin and Ruger rifles as well, although both are commonly used with above SAAMI loads, and I'm not hearing reports of rifle or human carnage from this activity.

These Baikal/Remington double rifles have been a pleasant surprise, with a lot of value for the price. Short-comings exist, but one can get into FUN double rifles for LOW MONEY. That's been my experience.
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Have you thought of using open sights rather than a scope, as Carl suggests? From your experience, maybe replacing the factory sights with a better set of express shallow-V rear and a good front might be a good investment.

I haven't taken the double plunge yet but if I do, I plan for a large bore, irons-only set up. Just seems natural and harkens to 'Old Africa'. smile


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Why would anyone need a second barrel if the first one is chambered for .45/70? grin Just kidding around. Glad you got your double and hope that it brings lots of enjoyment.


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MartyBoy - Thanks for the posting. I started this thread a while ago when I first recieved my Rem 45/70 side by side. Since then I have shot it more than all my others combined. What fun! I had a set of Warne QD rings put on it and moutned a Simmons 1.5X-5X scope on it. Thru reloading, I have found a load that shoots to the same horizontal point, with one barrel shooting about 3" higher than the other at 75 yards. I'm shooting the Rem 405gr. bullet. The load pretty much duplicates factory loads which is plenty for what I will hunt with it. Best thing about this load, is that it shoots well with all the pressure off both barrels. The jack screw isn't pushing on them at all, free floating if you will.
I was interested in reading the posting you mentioned on www.kifaruforums.com, but could not find it. what heading is it under?
I have read bad reports about this gun, but the vast majority of them are from people who have never even shot one. I have no regrets about getting mine. The triggers could use some work, and they will get some, but other than that, I say to those who bad mouth them to get one in their hands and shoot it. I think they will change their mind.
Mine will see action on deer and bear this season. I can't wait to look down those big barrels and see them pointed at game!

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I found US Sporting Goods' website by guessing:

www.ussginc.com

The new double rifles are made in Italy, and feature a (gasp) single trigger.

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Don't see the Baikal Rifle topic but here is the forum:

http://www.kifaruforums.net/

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I too have a Reminton S/S made by Baikal. It's probably the most fun rifle to shoot I own. It's a 45-70, and quite surpisingly has a highly figured piece of walnut on it. Wish I had bought the 30-06 version of it to when I had the chance.


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For those of you enthusiasts for .45-70 SxS Rifles, there is a custom with a buy now price of 3,000.00 at Gunbroker:

http://v4.beta.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=135483720

There is a reserve, here are sellers comments:

What I have here is a 45-70/ 300 , Double rifle. It was built custom for my Hound Hunting habit. A fellow in Iowa built it upon request - it has turned down light weightbarrels; if I remember correctly they are douglas, and they are 20 inches long.The length of pull is 14 1/2 incdhes to the front trigger. It is regulated at 35 yards and is within an inch.This rifle is aquiped with express sights, which have not been filed yet. I used this bear to hunt bear with my hounds. Is has been very efficient. What you see is what you get. It is in a hand made Juniper wood box. Please call with serious inquiry, 541-419-9817

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Somebody used to sleeve the barrels on a Savage shotgun if I remember right? This would get you into a double rifle cheap!
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medicman what do you figure the velocity was for that load?
If it was over 1600fps that is plenty bad medicine for any thing getting in front of it. Cheers NC


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Originally Posted by northcountry

medicman what do you figure the velocity was for that load?
If it was over 1600fps that is plenty bad medicine for any thing getting in front of it. Cheers NC


I will look up my notes I think it was close to 1500 but will confirm
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Abner, and others who have asked about finding the kifaruforums discussion on allowable pressures of the Baikal/Remington SPR22/MP221 double rifle, here is the link, hopefully, to this most interesting forum.

www.kifaruforums.net/showthread.php?t=6591&highlight=spr22&page=3

In the event this does not take you there, to page 3, search "Allowable pressure Sparton double rifle" Note that Spartan is misspelled, but do not correct. Get ready for a great ride if you want to know more on the subject and all the blather on 45-70 SAAMI pressures seems inadequate, the type often seen on this subject.
BTW, Tim Sundles of Buffalo Bore ammo, and a stand-up guy, confirmed for me recently the comments he made on this thread at kifaru 5 years ago. And I think Buffalo Bore knows a little something about potent 45-70 ammo.
I'm not really a big 45-70 fan and would have desired a British cartridge in my SPR 22, but I understand the need to sell guns and the 45-70 will do that. I've had a Ruger #1 Tropical in 45-70 for 25 years and a Remington Rolling Block with a Numrich barrel and custom fittings even longer. I have not shot them much, though I did make up a 350 grain load for the #1 with 3031 which was a real rocker.
One of the amusing topics on forums concerns whether a 45-70 can be a .458 Win Mag. Now, that is amusing, as it is not possible. But I think it begs the real question. The real question is to what extent a 45-70 can and is properly used for dangerous game, especially in Africa. That,...is a subject of ferocious controversy. You know the beat, the lever action/Ruger #1 guys want to blast dinosuars with it and the British rifle snobs with little practical 45-70 experience claim the round is a 'damned good woodchuck" cartridge out to 50 yards. All delicious stuff of course, but lacking in detail. I do note that in the last few years the boys at Rifle magazine have shot dangerous beasts in Africa with their 45-70 and they are still alive.
But I prefer far better authority than most. I direct you to John Pondoro Taylor's African Rifles and Cartridges. With all due respect to Craig Boddington, his African experience, his two Safari Rifles books, which are terrific, and a man who always is a gentleman and makes time for us little guys, I still think the 25 years Taylor spent hunting Africa makes him my expert.
The book has a page on the .450 Black Powder Express, the round popular at the turn of the last century and shooting light-for-caliber bullets of 270-365 grains. The 365 gr load was at 1700 fps and produces 2,340 pounds of ME. Taylor says the following on this round:
"I have used all four loads on different game and found them most satisfactory."
"I killed elephant, rhino, and buffalo with the 365-gr. hardened lead bullet, and lion with the soft solid lead bullet of the same weight..."
Interesting. Tim Sundles of Buffalo Bore loads a 430 grain LBT hardened bullet at 1900fps, with 3,500 ME, which he says can be used safely in the SPR22. Now, this is a much more potent load than Taylor's .450 BPE, which he found "most satisfactory" and we are to believe the modern 45-70 can't be used on big game? Doesn't sound logical. At the same time I recognize a "margin for error" inherent in more powerful loads, as did Taylor, as he later used more powerful rounds. Still, the modern 45-70 in the SPR22 gives comfort as a powerful round, while assuring a full recoil response in a 7.5 lb SPR22 rifle. It sure feels powerful!

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Well done MartyBoy - Both your post and the link are the best response I have seen for this gun and its allowable pressure. Personally, I think people get to caught up in the pressure/velocity debate, and this particular rifle has been at the front of that debate since we all started hearing about them. Really, I don't care what the max pressure is. My loads shoot great and will penetrate anything I will ever shoot with it, and then tear up the hillside behind the critter. In my opinion, this gun was not ment to go up against African dangerous game, but if someone wants to take it there, go for it...if it's legal there at all. Anyway, thanks for finally giving some intelegent helpfull info on the subject.
It was interesting to hear that Mr. Sundles said that his Buff Boar 430gr. load would be safe in this gun. I can asure you, they will never be shot in my gun. I like my shoulder just fine the way it is thank you. :-)

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