NIKON PROSTAFF - 480 CLICKS OF CAN-DO!
 

Topic Options
#3045219 - 05/19/09 .404 Jeffrey vs .416 Rigby
Calif. Hunter Offline
Campfire Guide

Registered: 04/05/01
Posts: 3054
Loc: OC, CA
A friend asked me to check into the ballistics of the .404, although he has a .416 Rigby. It appears from my latest Barnes Manual, that the .404 pushes a 400 gr .423 bullet at about 2300 FPS max, while the .416 pushes a 400 gr .416 bullet at about 2400. Is that right? If so, it seems that there is effectively nothing the Jeffery is going to do that the Rigby can't or won't? (Or vice-versa, perhaps, except that he already has the Rigby.)
_________________________
That rifle on the wall of the labourer's cottage or working class flat is the symbol of democracy. It is our job to see that it stays there. George Orwell

Top
RV 728 BP
#3045418 - 05/19/09 Re: .404 Jeffrey vs .416 Rigby [Re: Calif. Hunter]
x2mosg Offline
Campfire Regular

Registered: 01/25/07
Posts: 1361
It's really a wash. They are both capable of more, the Jeff a little, the Rigby quite a bit, but it's not needed and not recommended to stay within CIP or SAAMI pressure specs. The Rigby is capable of 416 Wby loads.

The original specs for the Jeff was a 400 or 410 at about 2150, to match the 450/400 in double rifles. That's with nice low pressures, and it'll do all you need.

The Rigby was loaded with 400 at 2400 or 410 at 2370(+/-). That too works well.

The Jeff is said to have softer recoil which is understandable assuming all things are equal as far as the gun.

David

Top
#3045744 - 05/20/09 Re: .404 Jeffrey vs .416 Rigby [Re: x2mosg]
muledeer Offline
Campfire Outfitter

Registered: 06/20/01
Posts: 8704
Loc: Ketchikan, AK, USA
A difference of 100 fps or 200 fps might (maybe, maybe not) make a significant difference between two cartridges if they were shooting .204/.223/.243/.257 diameter bullets at less than 75 gr. at targets more than 500 yards away. Maybe... Possibly...

I am extraordinarily confident that 100-200 fps difference between two cartridges shooting 400-gr solids at big, dangerous animals at less than 50 yards will never be distinguishable by anyone -- strictly on velocity differences.

That being said, I have a .404 Jeffery and shoot 400 gr solids at 2300 fps. I have utter belief that there is no functional difference between it and a .416 Rigby shooting a 400-gr soild at 2400 fps.

FWIW...

Dennis
_________________________
"The more you run over a dead cat, the flatter it gets."

"If you're asking me something technical, you may be looking for My Other Brother Darrell."

"It ain't foot-pounds that kills stuff -- it's broken body parts."

Top
#3046280 - 05/20/09 Re: .404 Jeffrey vs .416 Rigby [Re: muledeer]
Con Offline
Campfire Regular

Registered: 02/25/04
Posts: 1224
Loc: Australia
The 'advantage' to the 404Jeffery was that it didn't need a true magnum length action to function. An opened to H&H length standard action would suit. Its kind of interesting that the 404Jeffery probably did a vast amount more work in Africa than the 416Rigby ... but the later caught the attention of modern hunters to a greater extent.
Cheers...
Con

Top
#3047074 - 05/20/09 Re: .404 Jeffrey vs .416 Rigby [Re: Con]
x2mosg Offline
Campfire Regular

Registered: 01/25/07
Posts: 1361
+1 for what Dennis & Con added.

Top
#3047909 - 05/21/09 Re: .404 Jeffrey vs .416 Rigby [Re: x2mosg]
VonGruff Offline
Campfire Regular

Registered: 02/15/09
Posts: 809
Loc: South Otago, New Zealand
A standard length ex mil 98 Mauser is suitable for using to build a 404 and this brings it within the buildability of every enthusiests budget. This length action has been used sucessfully since 1904 when the cartridge was developed for release in 1905 (Jeffery's catalogue) A 400gn bullet at 2350 is suficient for any DG and always has been even though its reputation was made at 2150.

Von Gruff.
_________________________
Von Gruff.

Exodus 20:1-17

Acts 4:10-12


Top
#3048157 - 05/21/09 Re: .404 Jeffrey vs .416 Rigby [Re: VonGruff]
Wildcatter264 Offline
Campfire Ranger

Registered: 01/29/08
Posts: 1909
Loc: Back home in Dixie
True enough, though IMO a Win M-70-length action with the mag and rear receiver opened as standard for a 375H&H-length probably makes the 404 Jeff build a bit more flexible. Although historically doable on the M-98 Mauser, IMO the 404 Jeff (COAL 3.53") really pushes the design length of the action as it was originally designed for the 57mm cartridge family (COAL 3.065-3.35") IIRC.
_________________________
"Today, we need a nation of Minutemen, citizens who are not only prepared to take arms, but citizens who regard the preservation of freedom as the basic purpose of their daily life ..." JFK

ΜΟΛΩΝ ΛABE "From my cold dead hand" C. Heston

Top
#3048869 - 05/21/09 Re: .404 Jeffrey vs .416 Rigby [Re: Wildcatter264]
JohnT Offline
Campfire Regular

Registered: 01/17/03
Posts: 727
Loc: Sydney, Australia
My own 404J is built on a 1909 Argentine & the COL is actually slightly less than the 3.6" of the 375 H&H so the Jeffery works in a lighter, trimmer action. Ballistically, nothing to it if you old it to original specs.

Now, I was quite surprised though that probably the most famous 416 Rigby of them all - Harry Selby's was built by Rigby on a ex military M98 action and not a genuine Magnum Mauser. Wonder if they used 2 actions and welded them back together?

regards,
JohnT

Top
#3049000 - 05/21/09 Re: .404 Jeffrey vs .416 Rigby [Re: JohnT]
BigUglyMan Offline
Campfire Regular

Registered: 06/16/05
Posts: 1381
Loc: Kugluktuk, Nunavut
It would be hard to go wrong with either of them.
_________________________
"This duty fell upon me and was the worst job I ever had in my life.
I have known men I would rather shoot than the worst of dogs."

Frank Wild
Second in Command
Endurance 1914-1916

Top
#3050055 - 05/21/09 Re: .404 Jeffrey vs .416 Rigby [Re: JohnT]
VonGruff Offline
Campfire Regular

Registered: 02/15/09
Posts: 809
Loc: South Otago, New Zealand
I understood that Selby's 416 was on a standard length 98 opened up. The 404 is easily fitted in with minimal work. Mine is on an 52 FN Colombian and works very well indeed.

Von Gruff.
_________________________
Von Gruff.

Exodus 20:1-17

Acts 4:10-12


Top
#3050792 - 05/22/09 Re: .404 Jeffrey vs .416 Rigby [Re: VonGruff]
Con Offline
Campfire Regular

Registered: 02/25/04
Posts: 1224
Loc: Australia
VonGruff,
My understanding is also that Selby's rifle was a standard M98 opened up. Imagine trying to get that one past the legal watch-dogs these days.

That's perhaps a nice advantage to the old DGR chamberings, large case volumes kept pressures low when Cordite was the powder of choice. I recently had the pleasure to shoot a 13-14lb 577NE built in Australia on a Ruger No1 action. Large case volume keeps pressures low and its 750gr at 2000fps was easily handled. These days we tend to load much hotter, and I doubt you'd find a 'smith willing to chamber a 416Rigby into an opened M98, knowing what may occur later when someone decides to reach for its 'ballistic potential' with a hot load.
Cheers...
Con

Top
#3050876 - 05/22/09 Re: .404 Jeffrey vs .416 Rigby [Re: Con]
VonGruff Offline
Campfire Regular

Registered: 02/15/09
Posts: 809
Loc: South Otago, New Zealand
You got it in one Con. The other thing is that "back then" ,nearly all ammo was factory so the danger of some idiot hotrodding a perfectly good DG cartridge was negligable. Unfortunately not the case now. Who can tell what some nimrod will try to stuff into a cartridge once the rifle is out of your hands. The 404 at 2350fps is still a low pressure load and needs no more 'hotting up'to be effective in any DG situation. Fortunately those that chase the upper end and beyond go past the 404 and it has remained a sensible cartridge where the 416 has been loaded to the 416 W M by some. they dont understand that performance can actually diminishe outside a 2150 - 2400 fps velocity.

Von Gruff.
_________________________
Von Gruff.

Exodus 20:1-17

Acts 4:10-12


Top
#3052020 - 05/22/09 Re: .404 Jeffrey vs .416 Rigby [Re: VonGruff]
atkinsonhunting Offline
Campfire Tracker

Registered: 03/04/01
Posts: 6954
Loc: Filer, Idaho, USA
Because of the original balistics of the 404 it is assumed that 2100 to 2300 FPS is all it will do..Check the case capacity and you will be awakened...

I can get 2653 FPS with a 400 gr. bullet in a 26 inch 404 Jefferys with 95 grs of IMR-4831..I have chronographed this load and loaded one case 14 times and it was still good..I sent these loads to Norkfork Bullets for testing and they got 2550 plus something in a 24" test barrel and stated they were within safe pressure limits..I got this load from Rifle magazine some years ago, and have been using it ever since.. I load my 404 Jefferys at 2400 FPS for hunting DG, as that is the magic velocity IMO..

The .416 on the other hand can be safely pumped to 2700 FPS with a 400 gr. bullet but again eveyone loads it to 2400 FPS as again that is the magic potion..and I agree that it is..

The bottom line is you can build a 404 on a std. action and the .416 Rigby must be on a full size magnum action and that makes the Rigby a larger rifle..however my 404 is built on a full size magnum action.

Its a push no matter what you do..Take your pick..I picked the 404 for no particular reasons.
_________________________
Ray Atkinson
www.atkinsonhunting.com
ray@atkinsonhunting.com
208-326-4120

Top
#3052061 - 05/22/09 Re: .404 Jeffrey vs .416 Rigby [Re: VonGruff]
Mule Deer Offline
Campfire Oracle

Registered: 07/24/01
Posts: 36966
Loc: Banana Belt, Montana
VonGruff,

I have examined, handled and shot the Harry Selby .416 Rigby and can assure you that it is a standard Mauser 98 action, and a military one at that. Rigby evidently made more than one rifle on the 98 action for the .416.

I would also imagine that since the standard pressure for the .416 Rigby is at most 40,000 psi there is no danger in using a standard 98--unless, of course, as you suggest a "nimrod" feels compelled to load it up to 2700 fps with a 400-grain.

By the way, Harry Selby shot out the original barrel on the .416 and sent it back to Rigby for rebarreling--when Rigby was still in England. I shot it with the 2nd Rigby barrel (Harry sold it to a guy in the U.S.) and it is still spot-on with factory ammo and the express sights.

I have also done some research into the .416 Rigby and the original factory ballistics were around 2300 fps with a 410-grain bullet, not the 2400 fps that is generally quoted today. My own .416 Rigby (a CZ 550 Magnum) "regulates" to the express sights with a handload that gets around 2300 fps--and it has worked very well on both Cape and water buffalo.
_________________________
John

"Gunwriters, as you know, aren't as informed as their readers are and if it wasn't for the readers, there would be no need for writers..."--Shrapnel, May 2015

Top
#3052350 - 05/23/09 Re: .404 Jeffrey vs .416 Rigby [Re: Mule Deer]
atkinsonhunting Offline
Campfire Tracker

Registered: 03/04/01
Posts: 6954
Loc: Filer, Idaho, USA
Mule Deer,
I understand that it can be done and a good friend and PH Paul Zorne has one of those nice 416 Rigbys on a std. Milsurp Mauser action, they made a few but not a lot of them....A Kenyan PH who was a friend of Finn Aagards also had one, and I believe that was also one of Harry Selbys rifles, or maybe Harry Manners, not sure.

However I am of the opinnion that that big cartridge like the 416 Wby which is basically the same case performs better in a Mauser M-20 action or a like action with more size and one that will hold more rounds in the magazine and does not need to have so much metal removed from the front of the action behind the recoil lugs, even after removing as much as possibe from the rear of the action.....that is also why my 404 Jefferys is on a big Mauser (Vector/Searcy) action..although I have built more than a few 404 on std. actions, I never was quite satisfied with them.

Most if not all of the old English and German 416 Rigbys and 404 Jefferys's started off at about a chronographed 2000 FPS in the beginning, and were advertised at about 2125 FPS as best I recall. Later in their illustrious careers and after some complaints by the African boys who made a living shooting for Ivory, and later culled in Fly control with those wonderful FNs in 404, they upped the velocity of them both in to a reasonable abiet advertised 2300 FPS although I never had an opertunity to chronograph those loads, or at least I never got around to it..Apparantly the boys shooting elephants were more than satisfied, and two great rounds became the darlings of the Nostalgic, self included and guilty.
_________________________
Ray Atkinson
www.atkinsonhunting.com
ray@atkinsonhunting.com
208-326-4120

Top
#3052615 - 05/23/09 Re: .404 Jeffrey vs .416 Rigby [Re: atkinsonhunting]
VonGruff Offline
Campfire Regular

Registered: 02/15/09
Posts: 809
Loc: South Otago, New Zealand
Ray the fact that a 404 can more easily be built on the standard length action more than likely accounts for why it was so widely used in Africa. And the sufifiency of a 400gn bullet at the Kynoch velocities giving milder recoil in lighter rifles.

As you have said about your own 404 you can get significantly higher velocities than is needed for DG, 23 - 2400fps and at reasonably low pressures, so on that basis is the 416 redundant in as far as DG NEED is concerned. I would suguest not as need has nothing to do with what those of us afflicted with a love for firearms want or need.

Is an obsession an obsession if you really, really like what you are obsessing about???.

Von Gruff.
_________________________
Von Gruff.

Exodus 20:1-17

Acts 4:10-12


Top
#3053715 - 05/23/09 Re: .404 Jeffrey vs .416 Rigby [Re: VonGruff]
atkinsonhunting Offline
Campfire Tracker

Registered: 03/04/01
Posts: 6954
Loc: Filer, Idaho, USA
The 404 was Africas darling for one reason, and that is because FN made utilitarian rifles and the Game Depts purchased many of them with large amounts of ammo, later sold them off to the public although many still remain in game depts such as Tanzania where you still see a few rough FN in that caliber...Cheap cost, ammo ability and a caliber that did the job made the .404 popular..

The 416 never was widely used nor accepted, but was made popular by such scribes as Hemingway and Rourke, and a few very well known PHs later picked up on it and its fame spread. Its fame is mostly in the minds and hearts of the nostalgic American Sportsman that believed it was widely accepted in Africa...This does not mean that it isn't a wonderful caliber, it is a very effective caliber and, in effect, is a 416 Wby without a belt or visa versa.

I hope that my history lesson has not offended the sacred cow, least I be stringhaultered and gilflurted.:)
_________________________
Ray Atkinson
www.atkinsonhunting.com
ray@atkinsonhunting.com
208-326-4120

Top
#3058621 - 05/26/09 Re: .404 Jeffrey vs .416 Rigby [Re: atkinsonhunting]
Midas Offline
Member

Registered: 04/05/09
Posts: 35
Loc: noel, missouri
For all intents and purposes both cartridges achieve prety close to the same performance, and both will hammer big animals with plenty of authority.

However, if I were to pick one to build a rifle around, it would be the .404 Jeffery, as it can be housed in a lighter action, and will therefore be a lighter rifle.

When you get to be my age, with a bad back, hauling around a heavy rifle all day can be quite a chore!

Top
#3061864 - 05/27/09 Re: .404 Jeffrey vs .416 Rigby [Re: Midas]
atkinsonhunting Offline
Campfire Tracker

Registered: 03/04/01
Posts: 6954
Loc: Filer, Idaho, USA
When I sell my present 404 Jefferys. I am probably going to build a 9.5 lb. 404/416 Ruger wildcat with a 20 inch tube, drop box and all the bells and whistles or maybe just a 416 Ruger.
_________________________
Ray Atkinson
www.atkinsonhunting.com
ray@atkinsonhunting.com
208-326-4120

Top
#3063742 - 05/28/09 Re: .404 Jeffrey vs .416 Rigby [Re: atkinsonhunting]
medicman Offline
Campfire Guide

Registered: 11/17/07
Posts: 3576
Loc: Ontario Canada
dORS ANYONE MANUFACTURE THE 404 TODAYRANDT
_________________________
Praise the Lord for full Salvation
Christ Still lives upon the throne
And I know the blood still cleansess
Deeper than the sin has gone
Lester Roloff

Top
#3075753 - 06/02/09 Re: .404 Jeffrey vs .416 Rigby [Re: atkinsonhunting]
Wildcatter264 Offline
Campfire Ranger

Registered: 01/29/08
Posts: 1909
Loc: Back home in Dixie
Ray, I'm thinking of having a 404 Jeffery built on a Win M-70 Classic currently barreled in 416RM, a cartridge I've never been able to warm up to. Which GS would you recommend for such a DGR build?
_________________________
"Today, we need a nation of Minutemen, citizens who are not only prepared to take arms, but citizens who regard the preservation of freedom as the basic purpose of their daily life ..." JFK

ΜΟΛΩΝ ΛABE "From my cold dead hand" C. Heston

Top
#3076960 - 06/02/09 Re: .404 Jeffrey vs .416 Rigby [Re: Wildcatter264]
atkinsonhunting Offline
Campfire Tracker

Registered: 03/04/01
Posts: 6954
Loc: Filer, Idaho, USA
Today if I were to build a 404 then I would definately use one of the Winchester M-70s, but only in a 375 or 300 RUM...Why? because the factory did the work for you, the RUMs are based on the 404 Jefferys case and the box is right..otherwise a 404 on a std. action is seldom 110% on the feed, regardless of what we may be led to believe...

Westly Richards, Riemer Johhannsen, and Harold Wolf who actually built the box from scratch, or completely rebuilt the Mauser 98 box by rewelding the existing box to the original specs of Jefferys and opening the action to fit the box. They could make one feed and feed well...Most US gunsmith try to use one of the existing boxes and they simply do not work 100% no matter what...A few magazine manufacturers claimed they built the 404 box but it was just a 416 Remington box and even with some grinding didn't work well.

The 404 historically has been a bugger to make feed, and all we ever needed was a proper box! To this day nobody makes one.

Jim Wisner was the only US Gunsmith that ever built a proper 404 Jefferys box and he has not made them for quite some time.. Butch Searcy made some awesome 404s and used the Vektor actions our of RSA and they were fantastic big Mauser Mod 20 takeoffs...Again they are no more unless you can find one at a gun show or in some pawn shop. My personal 404 is one of those Vektor actions with considerable modification.

Edit: BTW, my personal 404 is for sale, pictures to interested parties, was $12,500 marked down to $9500 in this economy...contact Ray at the below email or phone.




Edited by atkinson (06/02/09)
_________________________
Ray Atkinson
www.atkinsonhunting.com
ray@atkinsonhunting.com
208-326-4120

Top

Moderator:  RickBin, SYSOP 
RV 180 2
CLICK HERE to see SUPERB STEINER OPTICS!
RV 160 1 2
RV 160 2 2
Who's Online
67 registered (805, AussieLad, artur, 30Gibbs, 13 invisible), 582 Guests and 253 Spiders online.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
RV 160 3 2
Forum Stats
53,440 Registered Members
72 Forums
691,832 Topics
9,996,316 Posts

Most users ever online: 4,830 @ 12/02/14










Copyright © 2000-2015 24hourcampfire.com, Inc. All Rights Reserved.