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#3050792 - 05/21/09 11:08 PM Re: .404 Jeffrey vs .416 Rigby [Re: VonGruff]
Con Offline
Campfire Regular

Registered: 02/25/04
Posts: 1224
Loc: Australia
VonGruff,
My understanding is also that Selby's rifle was a standard M98 opened up. Imagine trying to get that one past the legal watch-dogs these days.

That's perhaps a nice advantage to the old DGR chamberings, large case volumes kept pressures low when Cordite was the powder of choice. I recently had the pleasure to shoot a 13-14lb 577NE built in Australia on a Ruger No1 action. Large case volume keeps pressures low and its 750gr at 2000fps was easily handled. These days we tend to load much hotter, and I doubt you'd find a 'smith willing to chamber a 416Rigby into an opened M98, knowing what may occur later when someone decides to reach for its 'ballistic potential' with a hot load.
Cheers...
Con

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#3050876 - 05/22/09 03:20 AM Re: .404 Jeffrey vs .416 Rigby [Re: Con]
VonGruff Offline
Campfire Regular

Registered: 02/15/09
Posts: 789
Loc: South Otago, New Zealand
You got it in one Con. The other thing is that "back then" ,nearly all ammo was factory so the danger of some idiot hotrodding a perfectly good DG cartridge was negligable. Unfortunately not the case now. Who can tell what some nimrod will try to stuff into a cartridge once the rifle is out of your hands. The 404 at 2350fps is still a low pressure load and needs no more 'hotting up'to be effective in any DG situation. Fortunately those that chase the upper end and beyond go past the 404 and it has remained a sensible cartridge where the 416 has been loaded to the 416 W M by some. they dont understand that performance can actually diminishe outside a 2150 - 2400 fps velocity.

Von Gruff.
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Von Gruff.

Exodus 20:1-17

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#3052020 - 05/22/09 03:46 PM Re: .404 Jeffrey vs .416 Rigby [Re: VonGruff]
atkinsonhunting Offline
Campfire Tracker

Registered: 03/04/01
Posts: 6954
Loc: Filer, Idaho, USA
Because of the original balistics of the 404 it is assumed that 2100 to 2300 FPS is all it will do..Check the case capacity and you will be awakened...

I can get 2653 FPS with a 400 gr. bullet in a 26 inch 404 Jefferys with 95 grs of IMR-4831..I have chronographed this load and loaded one case 14 times and it was still good..I sent these loads to Norkfork Bullets for testing and they got 2550 plus something in a 24" test barrel and stated they were within safe pressure limits..I got this load from Rifle magazine some years ago, and have been using it ever since.. I load my 404 Jefferys at 2400 FPS for hunting DG, as that is the magic velocity IMO..

The .416 on the other hand can be safely pumped to 2700 FPS with a 400 gr. bullet but again eveyone loads it to 2400 FPS as again that is the magic potion..and I agree that it is..

The bottom line is you can build a 404 on a std. action and the .416 Rigby must be on a full size magnum action and that makes the Rigby a larger rifle..however my 404 is built on a full size magnum action.

Its a push no matter what you do..Take your pick..I picked the 404 for no particular reasons.
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www.atkinsonhunting.com
ray@atkinsonhunting.com
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#3052061 - 05/22/09 04:11 PM Re: .404 Jeffrey vs .416 Rigby [Re: VonGruff]
Mule Deer Offline
Campfire Oracle

Registered: 07/24/01
Posts: 34140
Loc: Banana Belt, Montana
VonGruff,

I have examined, handled and shot the Harry Selby .416 Rigby and can assure you that it is a standard Mauser 98 action, and a military one at that. Rigby evidently made more than one rifle on the 98 action for the .416.

I would also imagine that since the standard pressure for the .416 Rigby is at most 40,000 psi there is no danger in using a standard 98--unless, of course, as you suggest a "nimrod" feels compelled to load it up to 2700 fps with a 400-grain.

By the way, Harry Selby shot out the original barrel on the .416 and sent it back to Rigby for rebarreling--when Rigby was still in England. I shot it with the 2nd Rigby barrel (Harry sold it to a guy in the U.S.) and it is still spot-on with factory ammo and the express sights.

I have also done some research into the .416 Rigby and the original factory ballistics were around 2300 fps with a 410-grain bullet, not the 2400 fps that is generally quoted today. My own .416 Rigby (a CZ 550 Magnum) "regulates" to the express sights with a handload that gets around 2300 fps--and it has worked very well on both Cape and water buffalo.
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John

The ultimate concern of a rifle loony is rifle trivia. And why not? What else is as distracting from the really important concerns of everyday life?

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#3052350 - 05/22/09 06:40 PM Re: .404 Jeffrey vs .416 Rigby [Re: Mule Deer]
atkinsonhunting Offline
Campfire Tracker

Registered: 03/04/01
Posts: 6954
Loc: Filer, Idaho, USA
Mule Deer,
I understand that it can be done and a good friend and PH Paul Zorne has one of those nice 416 Rigbys on a std. Milsurp Mauser action, they made a few but not a lot of them....A Kenyan PH who was a friend of Finn Aagards also had one, and I believe that was also one of Harry Selbys rifles, or maybe Harry Manners, not sure.

However I am of the opinnion that that big cartridge like the 416 Wby which is basically the same case performs better in a Mauser M-20 action or a like action with more size and one that will hold more rounds in the magazine and does not need to have so much metal removed from the front of the action behind the recoil lugs, even after removing as much as possibe from the rear of the action.....that is also why my 404 Jefferys is on a big Mauser (Vector/Searcy) action..although I have built more than a few 404 on std. actions, I never was quite satisfied with them.

Most if not all of the old English and German 416 Rigbys and 404 Jefferys's started off at about a chronographed 2000 FPS in the beginning, and were advertised at about 2125 FPS as best I recall. Later in their illustrious careers and after some complaints by the African boys who made a living shooting for Ivory, and later culled in Fly control with those wonderful FNs in 404, they upped the velocity of them both in to a reasonable abiet advertised 2300 FPS although I never had an opertunity to chronograph those loads, or at least I never got around to it..Apparantly the boys shooting elephants were more than satisfied, and two great rounds became the darlings of the Nostalgic, self included and guilty.
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Ray Atkinson
www.atkinsonhunting.com
ray@atkinsonhunting.com
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#3052615 - 05/22/09 09:36 PM Re: .404 Jeffrey vs .416 Rigby [Re: atkinsonhunting]
VonGruff Offline
Campfire Regular

Registered: 02/15/09
Posts: 789
Loc: South Otago, New Zealand
Ray the fact that a 404 can more easily be built on the standard length action more than likely accounts for why it was so widely used in Africa. And the sufifiency of a 400gn bullet at the Kynoch velocities giving milder recoil in lighter rifles.

As you have said about your own 404 you can get significantly higher velocities than is needed for DG, 23 - 2400fps and at reasonably low pressures, so on that basis is the 416 redundant in as far as DG NEED is concerned. I would suguest not as need has nothing to do with what those of us afflicted with a love for firearms want or need.

Is an obsession an obsession if you really, really like what you are obsessing about???.

Von Gruff.
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Von Gruff.

Exodus 20:1-17

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#3053715 - 05/23/09 02:21 PM Re: .404 Jeffrey vs .416 Rigby [Re: VonGruff]
atkinsonhunting Offline
Campfire Tracker

Registered: 03/04/01
Posts: 6954
Loc: Filer, Idaho, USA
The 404 was Africas darling for one reason, and that is because FN made utilitarian rifles and the Game Depts purchased many of them with large amounts of ammo, later sold them off to the public although many still remain in game depts such as Tanzania where you still see a few rough FN in that caliber...Cheap cost, ammo ability and a caliber that did the job made the .404 popular..

The 416 never was widely used nor accepted, but was made popular by such scribes as Hemingway and Rourke, and a few very well known PHs later picked up on it and its fame spread. Its fame is mostly in the minds and hearts of the nostalgic American Sportsman that believed it was widely accepted in Africa...This does not mean that it isn't a wonderful caliber, it is a very effective caliber and, in effect, is a 416 Wby without a belt or visa versa.

I hope that my history lesson has not offended the sacred cow, least I be stringhaultered and gilflurted.:)
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Ray Atkinson
www.atkinsonhunting.com
ray@atkinsonhunting.com
208-326-4120

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#3058621 - 05/26/09 01:09 AM Re: .404 Jeffrey vs .416 Rigby [Re: atkinsonhunting]
Midas Offline
Member

Registered: 04/04/09
Posts: 35
Loc: noel, missouri
For all intents and purposes both cartridges achieve prety close to the same performance, and both will hammer big animals with plenty of authority.

However, if I were to pick one to build a rifle around, it would be the .404 Jeffery, as it can be housed in a lighter action, and will therefore be a lighter rifle.

When you get to be my age, with a bad back, hauling around a heavy rifle all day can be quite a chore!

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#3061864 - 05/27/09 12:05 PM Re: .404 Jeffrey vs .416 Rigby [Re: Midas]
atkinsonhunting Offline
Campfire Tracker

Registered: 03/04/01
Posts: 6954
Loc: Filer, Idaho, USA
When I sell my present 404 Jefferys. I am probably going to build a 9.5 lb. 404/416 Ruger wildcat with a 20 inch tube, drop box and all the bells and whistles or maybe just a 416 Ruger.
_________________________
Ray Atkinson
www.atkinsonhunting.com
ray@atkinsonhunting.com
208-326-4120

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#3063742 - 05/28/09 07:14 AM Re: .404 Jeffrey vs .416 Rigby [Re: atkinsonhunting]
medicman Offline
Campfire Guide

Registered: 11/17/07
Posts: 3576
Loc: Ontario Canada
dORS ANYONE MANUFACTURE THE 404 TODAYRANDT
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And I know the blood still cleansess
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