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Originally Posted by hunter5325
I've had great luck with .284 140's @3300fps on muleys

I'm very interested in how 180NAB's @ 3350fps via RUM will hold up on elk shoulders.....work good on paper


I love Accubonds, but personally, just me gabbing here, I'd run the 200-gn version from a RUM.

I run them from my 300 Win Mag and they are a wonderful bullet in every way- at least ballistically. Those things really cut the wind. Noticeably better than the 180 Ballistic Tip, which I believe should have similar flight ballistics to the 180 AB.

However, should you indeed poke a bull in the shoulder with that load, I will be very interested to hear how it works for you, and I wish you good luck in doing so!


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Originally Posted by Jeff_O
Originally Posted by Shortmag
Originally Posted by Jeff_O
I shot him well with a 7mm-08 and he went a couple hundred yards


How "well" did you shoot him?

GK


Diagonal through the chest, back of one lung, front of the other, 150 Partition.

That was the last time I used that bullet. I killed 6-7 bucks with that load, and a couple of them were fairly unimpressed at first (though they died). That rifle didn't shoot 140's to save it's life.

It's now a .358... and the deer are MOST impressed when hit by it <g>....


Ever thought of busting bone? Mashed bone, and lungs, is good for keeping them close.

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Originally Posted by Jeff_O
for some types of hunting a bullet that spins off some fragments, does plenty of damage consistantly, and still penetrates trumps a bullet that ONLY penetrates. For me. Not trying to tell anyone else what to do. smile


I know of other bullets besides the AB that spin off some fragments (at high impact velocity), do plenty of damage (VERY consistently), and penetrate like crazy. One such bullet starts with a T and ends with an X grin

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No way hoser. Those things just pencil on through, won't hardly kill nuthin'. Except a zebra heart.

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Originally Posted by GreatWaputi
Originally Posted by Jeff_O
Originally Posted by Shortmag
Originally Posted by Jeff_O
I shot him well with a 7mm-08 and he went a couple hundred yards


How "well" did you shoot him?

GK


Diagonal through the chest, back of one lung, front of the other, 150 Partition.

That was the last time I used that bullet. I killed 6-7 bucks with that load, and a couple of them were fairly unimpressed at first (though they died). That rifle didn't shoot 140's to save it's life.

It's now a .358... and the deer are MOST impressed when hit by it <g>....


Ever thought of busting bone? Mashed bone, and lungs, is good for keeping them close.


Don't need to, with a .358! smile Why I like it.


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bwinters, All of the bullets on all animals except the musk ox were pass through's. Caliber size entrance hole, a nickel to quarter size exit hole, and a wound channel through the lungs that I could put my fist through. I shot the musk ox twice as he was quartering away from me. Both shots hit mid body, then to the opposite shoulder. I did not recover them.


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Thanks buf!


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Originally Posted by Jeff_O


So, as I've tried to explain before on this forum, for some types of hunting a bullet that spins off some fragments, does plenty of damage consistantly, and still penetrates trumps a bullet that ONLY penetrates.


Jeff: Really sorry to disagree but this is unmitigated BS.Fragments are the red herring in tissue destruction; they are dissipated energy.There may be some damage but it is inconsequential compared to the damage done by the rapid expansion(not disintegration) and frontal area of the bullet itself(the part that remains in one piece? Remember that part?)

Load a Northfork; push it fast.You will get expansion to large frontal area; you will get penetration,AND you will get very extensive damage WITHOUT any fragmentation.

You think fragmentation helps kill because you don't have much experience with bullets that don't fragment.

I've used bullets that do NOT fragment at all,but expand early to a large frontal area,stay in one piece,and the results look like a bomb went off. They still had enough penetration to bust off-side shoulders and sometimes exit.Their kill to shot ratio has been so vastly superior to the fragment type bullets it isn't funny. Yes, even on light game.

If you don't beleive me, go read something like African Rifles and Cartridges, or some other works by guys hunting in Africa,and see the disdain these guys had for bullets that fragmented;they thought such bullets were worthless.Even on here,JJ Hack does not seem to have much use for bullets that fragment,and the killing gets done by the part of the bullet that stays in one piece.Yes expansion is important;fragmentation is not,unless you shoot rodents and coyotes,both teeny animals that take no killing at all."Expansion" and "fragmentation" ar two entirely different things.Expansion is good,if accompanied by enough weight retention to ensure penetration.The fragments contribute little to the process IMHO.

In Africa,they kill LOTS of game;in North America,we mostly talk about it.If fragmentation of bullets was so reliable as a killer of big game, it would find favor in places like Africa;or in Alaska, near as I can tell, it hasn't.

We are a nation of deer hunters,and any second-rate bullet design works on deer, leading to erroneous conclusions about what is "good" bullet performance.


Last edited by BobinNH; 06/20/09.



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Bob, I will have to disgree. I've been pacing off the distances animals have traveled after being hit solidly in the chest with various bullets for many years now, and bullets that partially fragment kill quicker.

They do create more damage, because that's what I have seen inside animals. The most "fragmenting" bullet I've seen used on big game is the Berger VLD, which essentially totally comes apart (but only after getting inside, since it's the only bullet that doesn't start to expand immediately upon striking an animal). It is also the quickest killer that I've ever seen--which was the same conclusion that some veteran New Zealand guides came to after watching a bunch of game shot with it, expecially feral goats, considered among the toughest-to-drop animals by everybody who's ever shot them.

Yes, non-fragmenting bullets can make a big hole in animals. I have seen such holes a lot, including many similar to that in the infamous "zebra heart" photo that keeps popping up on the Campfire. But I have also seen a VLD turn the heart of a 400-pound animal INSIDE OUT. It did not have a large hole in it. Instead it was converted to a foot-long flap of muscle tissue no more than an inch thick. That is a LOT more damage than any sort of hole.

My experience includes a bunch of animals in Africa too--and not just the several dozen I've shot but a whole pile of meat animals on three cull shoots, where I got to watch a lot animals shot by other hunters as well. On the biggest such shoot (two years ago in South Africa) almost 200 animals were taken, of all sizes up to 1500 pounds or so. The vast majority of the hunters used the latest In Bullets, which were Nosler AccuBonds and Barnes TSX's. Some even used both, shooting AB's in one rifle and TSX's in another. On average the AB's killed quicker.

This is also the same basic conclusion that one major European ammunition company came to, after VERY extensive culling on a variety of animals--and the reason they produce different bullets for different purposes, that fragment to different degrees.

This isn't to say that the extreme penetration of something like a TSX (or Nosler E-Tip, Hornady GMX, North Fork, Trophy Bonded, etc.) isn't often a good thing. I have used such bullets a lot and really like them when really deep penetration is needed. But extreme penetration isn't needed nearly as much as many people evidently think it is.

The average distance that chest-shot animals have run after being hit in the chest with various non-fragmenting bullets has been a little over 50 yards, according to my "pacing" notes. That includes all "big game" animals, not just deer-sized game. The average distance from fragmenting bullets has been shorter, averaging around 20 yards with VLD's (which also have the highest percentage of drop-on-impact lung shots of any bullet I've ever seen used) to 30-35 yards with various semi-fragmenting bullets, whether Hornady Interlocks or Nosler Partitions.

Now, it is often nice to have an exit hole, especially when hunting in what is variously called woods or bush, and even more so when there are a LOT of animals around, whether whitetails or African antelope. This is where the non-fragmenting bullets (and especially the petal-type bullets) have an advantage. But after a number of years of using such bullets I will also note that you'll be usually following a blood trail further when using them than when using bullets that partially fragment.

This doesn't mean I won't be using non-fragmenting big game bullets anymore. I will, because they are indeed best for certain purposes. But I quit believing they are best for ALL hunting a number of years ago, the reason that most of my hunting now takes places with bullets that at least partially fragment--even my elk hunting, because even those supposedly super-tough animals die quicker when hit with an AccuBond rather than an E-Tip.





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JB: I know;I really did not expect unanimous agreement on what I said grin

I know that many don't agree,but I have had so many very good results(certainly not in the same volumes nor amounts as some of these studies,because I'm just one hunter/shooter and cannot afford the research)from the type bullet performance that I've described that I have come to believe it, regardless.

You're in a better position to evaluate this than I am, but I am just going on what my eyeballs and results have told me;I have had some very impressive results with certain bullets that "ain't made no mo" so there is little point talking about them. grin

Along those lines though,based on what you said, I DID pick up 100 7mm 140 Remington Ultra Bonded,and fully intend to load them in the 7mm RM.Research continues!




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Thanks JB and Bob for A. being really civil, B. bringing a wealth of knowledge to a good thread.

To me, the perfect hunting bullet is on the market - Speer Tipped Trophy Bondy Bear Claw. Why they don't bring them out as component bullets is beyond me. I'm tempted to buy a few boxes, pull the bullets and do my own development using a powder or two that has performed well in the past for the 7RM.

I've always like the TBBC but the abysmal BC associated with the "protected point" has prevented my using them. The tipped version should take care of that. Plus give great weight retention, a wide hole, good penetration - in short the perfect bullet wink


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If this type of results (bang/flop) / damage you want...dont use Accubonds.
[Linked Image]

This is a pic (exit wound with blod shot material cut away) from a 200gr Accubond shot from a 300RUM - maybe 200 metres at a larger bull elk in Alberta couple years ago. Double lung pass thru. Small entrance-HUGE EXIT.

I have had same results with majority mine.

bwinters, you will be happy with the Accubonds for sure. I'm so impressed with them in 140gr from my 270WSM's that I almost prefer hunting with that rifle.

Been using them in factory ammo from 2004 when they first came out in the Winchester Supreme for the 300WM and 270WSM, to now with reloads since 2005.

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Bob and JB,

Thanks, to both of you. The civility with which bullet threads have been "allowed" to happen lately is a breath of fresh air.

Bob, my disagreement with you stems solely from two things. First, likely my inexperience, as you note. Roughly 20 deer and 2 elk is my sum total- though I've been around another 4-5 elk killed. Perhaps, the very next animal I kill, will negate what I am about to type below. I can't deny that possibility- that a simple lack of experience accounts for the lack of penetration PROBLEMS that I've seen.

That said, the second, main, reason that I disagree is that I simply have not seen penetration to be the big issue that some seem to have seen. Everything I've shot at deer, exited, with the sole exception of last year's butt-shot buck, in which case the bullet smashed the hip joint and then went lengthwise through the whole deer.

What I HAVE seen as a problem, is animals go a lot farther than I'd like, in the rain... in the jungle... in the approaching dusk. This was, I believe, because my primary hunting rifle for 3-4 years was a Model 7 in 7mm-08, and the only damn thing it would shoot worth beans was the 150-gn Partition, at a MV in the high 2500's somewhere. Several times, I was rather unimpressed by the damage caused by this load, though they always exited. And a couple of my bucks were similarly unimpressed, nearly costing me my biggest-horned buck (double lung shot), who ran over 200 yards over hill and dale...

So, I'll choose a bullet that does the most damage to the vitals as possible, and the physics of the situation are quite simple. IF A BULLET IS GOING TO EXIT ANYWAY, the bullet that spins off some fragments and then exits will do more damage than the bullet that doesn't. And, doing more damage, creating a wider, more diverse wound channel, can ONLY be a good thing.

It also seems to me, that the extra damage in the early part of the wound channel, which more often than not will be a very good place to have it doing that damage. Butt-shot bucks being the exception. smile

This is just my thinking on the subject. It could be summed up thus: I've seen Core-Lokt, Partitions, Speer, Interlocks, Accubonds, Ballistic Tips, Silvertips, some generic Winchester bullet, and probably another one or two, do nothing but blow right through deer. Also, seen Accubonds blow right through 3/4 of the elk I've seen kilt by them, and the remaining 1 was my big cow at ~300 yards and the bullet made it to the offside hide after striking heavy bone before even entering the chest.

So having seen THAT, my search for the perfect bullet isn't so focused on penetration. Penetration is not a problem. I WANT penetration, but I won't sacrifice killin' power for it, since I HAVE seen that be a problem.

I reserve the right to modify my opinion as more data points are gathered... grin...

One final thought. A mixed-bag African safari isn't deer (or even elk) hunting. In America, we know what we are after when we take to the woods...




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Jeff,I am never gonna get in a pissin match with JB or anyone else and will always try to avoid confrontation because there is really nothing to fight about;just slightly different views on a rather complex little subject is all.... grin

That said, I have just not had any issues killing stuff with the bullets I used; I admit to not being terribly experimental,because I did enough of that in my early years,and have not seen any need.Trying to keep up with all the new bullet technology is too daunting and my objective has always been to kill animals and leave the experiments in the hands of those who had the time and resources.

Given that I just used Partitions and Bitterroots(performance of which is kinda like a Northfork,Aframe, or an X bullet with a larger frontal area and about the same weight retention,to put it all in contemporary terms).These have worked fine and I have not had any issues for which I could ever blame the bullet; I have not noticed an absence of lethal effect with either one.

The Partitions are what they are and always have been...reliable and consistent;under high velocity they expand to the partition,and the rear portion keeps going...they do not have very extensive frontal areas,nor high weight retention, but this is neither here nor there because they are consistently lethal,effective,and predictable.Only under very high vellocity and a lot of resistance might they buckle under.I don't know where that point is because I have never seen a Partition "fail" on anything from antelope to Brown Bear.

The Bitterroot was a "different" bullet,sort of a "cult" bullet due to limited production in a day and age(late 60's IIRC)where bullets that would fragment and come unglued under the stresses of high impact velocity, were a dime a dozen.The Bitterroot was designed by Bill Steigers to withstand the stresses associated with the highest impact velocities.They had pure copper jackets,pure lead cores,and were truly bonded(not glued) by a propritery process which sort of enhanced the mystique.But they never failed that I know of.

They were popularized by guys like Jack Carter and John Wooters and Bob Hagel,all of whom used them extensively here and in Africa.In fact it was Carter's inability to get Steigers to into full commercial production that led Carter to invent the TBBC. The Bitterroot also flushed out the Swift Aframe made by lee Reid,and in a conversation I had with Mike Brady, he told me the Bitterroot was the inspiration for the Northfork as we know it today.

The faster you make them go, the better they perform,and the current fad of using "light for caliber" bullets,aka Barmnes,etc, was(is) nothing new to a Bitterroot user from the 60's or 70's;we were doing it routinely back then,and forward in to the 80's.Matter of fact, if you want to make a Bitterroot NOT perform,start it slow. They like speed,lots of it,and will still retain as much or more weight and greater frontal area than anything on the market today,X included.Matter of fact some Bitterroot users were building rifles in the 70's and 80's on a wildcat 404 Jeffrey,necked to 30 caliber and blown out,so they could push 200 gr Bitterroots at 3200+and 180's at 3400....for those born after 1970,does any of this sound familiar? grin

Ain't much new under the sun,and the reason I don't fall into a swoon at a lot of new cartridges and bullet designs.This stuff has been around for decades!

Damage to an animal from Bitterrots is pretty extensive,and I have had them make gaping exits on even brown bear from a 375; not a 300 gr mind you,but from a 250 gr.One I have downstairs is 7/8" across and still weighs 248 gr after smashing both shoulders of a large grizzly.

I have had mule deer and whitetails from 7 mags and 270's collapse instantly; the kind of results we expect and want from things like BT's and AB's....I once ran 12 straight DRT's on game from pronghorn to elk, before I had one muley push himself downhill 40 yards on his hind legs.Friends had and report similar performance.

Generally the insides of these animals have looked like they swallowed a grenade if impact velocity was high(remember you could not drive them too fast); on one pronghorn shot at app 400 yards,the 130 gr punched through the heart and left a 25 cent piece sized exit. I stopped worrying about enough expansion about that time....and they personified the notion that speed kills...if you use a bullet that can stand the strain.

I go through this lengthy,windy dissertation not to demonstrate that I know a lot about bullets, or know what is "best",or how they all work,or that Bitterroots were the greatest;just to report what I have seen,and maybe demonstrate that it does not take a fragmenting bullet to cause a severe and extensive wound channel;and that it IS possible to have devastating expansion,large frontal area,great penetration,with lots of damage wthout fragmentation,even at high velocity.

I'm at a loss to understand some of the stuff I read on here about guys having problems killing big game;I've found it to be pretty simple really if you remove a lot of the glamour and adrenalin from it.Just whack them in the vitals with a good bullet and it is generally over....Sorry for droning on...

Last edited by BobinNH; 06/20/09.



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Grat post, Bob! Thanks for the history lesson (really, seriously... that sounds sarcastic... my brain ain't working so well yet today...)

I suppose next you are gonna say that my generation didn't invent sex, eh? smile

We come at this from opposite perspectives, almost. When you came up, bullet failure was common if not routine. It was a problem. By virtue of me coming into the sport so recently (circa 1999), the lens I see this stuff through is the color of good bullet performance... not a problem.

Interestingly, the availability of easy techno fixes for trajectory also led me straight to heavier for caliber bullets at "sane" velocities. 2900 fps kind of floats my boat. I would expect that to be another kind of fundamental difference between the mindset from way back then (grin) and nowadays; it sure seems like flatness of trajectory was a major point of obsession to folks back then. Guess it still is. But as we've talked about before, bullet problems are minimized when you are running bullets of high SD, at reasonable speeds. They just sorta work.

Anyway, I totally see where you are coming from, and I have zero doubt that it works and works well. And, thanks again for the timeline on those bullet makers. That's pretty cool stuff.



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Bob,

That's the big advantage of what I have called a "wide expander" in various articles. The BBC was the original of that whole concept. Its closest approximation these days is the Woodleigh Weld-Core, though the Swift A-Frame is kinda in the same class. The Remington CLU isn't too far off, either, or the Norma Oryx. I have used all enough to know that their main virtue is punching a big hole through the vitals.

The only place I would quibble with your post is the part of about "great penetration" from such bullets. They do tend to penetrate pretty well, but it is a physical impossibility to match the penetration of something like a TSX, E-Tip, etc., (or even a Nosler Partition) when a bullet spreads out to a very wide frontal area. Certainly the wide-expander types tend to penetrate sufficiently on all but extreme angles, but they do not penetrate like the "petal" type bullets, simply because there is so much frontal area.

The TB and North Fork, however, are somewhat different in concept and results. They have the solid shank of the TSX and others, with a much smaller lead core bonded into the front end of the bullet--and in the North Fork, only the front quarter of the bullet. Thus they are sort of a compromise between the petal-type bulets and what might be called the "full-core" bonded bullets like the BBC, Woodleigh, Oryx and others. In my experience the North Fork penetrates more than the TB, on average, just because it doesn't open up as widely.

I would be very interested in hearing about cores being glued to jackets in "bonded" bullets. I have talked to a lot of bulletmakers and have yet to hear about that. All that I've talked to bond the cores to the jackets by heating up the bullet until the core starts to melt.

Bonding is a useful thing, but not magic. Mike Brady told me that the little dab of lead in the front end of North Forks didn't need to be bonded, because the bullets would work pretty much the same way without the bonding. (From what I have seen he was right.) But the word "bonded" helped sell bullets to true believers.


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This is a great thread with some really good information/discussion. I particulaly liked Bob's line about just reporting on what he has seen, which is how John always presents his thoughts as well. Presenting information in this way is so much more useful than declaring absolutes. Thanks to everyone who has contributed in this fashion.

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John, correct me if I am wrong, but I seem to remember that when the first Trophy bonded bullets came out they were a full core bullet similar to the Bitterroot?

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I seem to recall they were as well, but that the jacket was very thick toward the base. I don't think that model lasted all that long, though, maybe a year or two.


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I run the 160's in my 7mm rem mag, I love them, won't use any others


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