Home Forums Hunting & Shooting General Big Game Nosler Accubond performance

I did a search and couldn't find much discussion of these bullets. My 7mm RM isn't shooting Partitions all that well and I'm looking at alternatives. I get acceptable accuracy with 175 Hornady's but I really want to shoot a 160.

The load and rifle are primarily for caribou/elk. I love the Parition, would prefer not to shoot a Barnes, and may try A-Frames if I can't get the Partitions to shoot better. The reviews on Midway have all been positive, some claim 70% weight retention and major penetration on elk size animals. Plus the BC is 0.531.

What has been your experience with Accubonds on larger game in the 160, 0.284 flavor? Or any other caliber for that matter.

I LOVE the NAB's. Never shot the 160s but have shot the 140's in .277 and .284 with outstanding performance.

Put a 140 from my 270 wsm through about 25" or so of coues deer (possible more), at 35 yards. Recovered bullet had 67% weight retention.

That 160gr. is very accurate in my 280AI. Haven't had a chance to bloody it yet but it will likely be the one I pack for muleys this fall.

Have used the 140 Accubond to kill two elk with the 270 WSM. One shot each. Good accuracy and on game performance so far, but a sampling of two isn't much!

160 7mmWSM and 140 270WSM from 100 and 150 yards. Only two I've recovered.

I've killed 2 deer and 2 elk with 'em. One of the deer was a 180 from a 30-06; it broke the shoulder and went diagonally through and exited way back the opposite flank. Pretty much perfect performance.


This last season, I was still-hunting a slippery hillside and somehow managed to shoot a buck right in the a$$ at close range, trying to sneak a bullet behind his last rib... the 8mm, 200-gn AB smashed the hip joint, then went lenthwise through the deer, deflecting off some ribs on the way, and ended up under the buck's chin under the hide. That bullet retained exactly 70%.



Then I killed a big cow elk in Colorado. She was steeply uphill, I shot as she turned broadside, and the bullet hit her elbow first (very heavy bone) before entering the body cavity and making it to the opposite hide in her neck, forward of the other shoulder. She went DOWN. 280 yards, same 8mm AB.



Then I shot this bull in Oregon. 150-ish yards at a trot. This is the exit. The entrance was a bit further forward. He went about 50 yards and piled up.





I sure like 'em.

Apparently they act like a Partition. Most of the partitions in my collection retain 65-68% - from my test media, have never recovered one from an animal. I did dig one out of a tree once after it killed a big doe. Broke the point off my Buck knife doing it........

I have used and seen them used out of a 300wsm (180 grain) and 338wm (225 grain) on a couple brown bears one black bear and several moose. Excellent performance on all of them. In my opinion you can't go wrong with them.

I will say, if I KNEW my shots were going to almost always be close, I'd probably run a Partition or TSX. I think they'd do a touch better at pure penetration.

One thing I am LOVING about Accubonds right now, is that you can get 'em! Nosler seems immune to this loading component shortage.

I would like to add, my buddy Jerry has killed two elk with the 225 AB from his .338. Both DRT, both exited. Forgot to mention those. Both were 300-ish yards away. One of was in such a god-awful hole that I'm still sore from helping him get that thing out of there!!

So far they have done great for me out of my sako .270; 140 factory loads vs, mule deer, whitetail and antelope.

I've had very good results with 140 gr 7mm ABs on white tail deer - both 7wsm and 7mm-08 velocities. I'm considering the 160 on an upcoming elk hunt. One of our members had a 160 that badly bloodshot a mule deer shoulder - he posted some pics to back it up. Right now, I'm trying to get 150 and/or 160 Partitions to shoot well in my 284 or my 7wsm, and I'm not quite there yet. Good luck with whatever bullet you decide on.

Know the feeling. I've shot ~ $150 in components trying to get 160 Partitions to fly consistently accurate in my 7RM.

Am going to bed the factory stock as a last resort.

The 160 gr Accubond is my favorite bullet in my 7mm RM. I'm getting sub-MOA 3-shot groups with it to 200 yds. I used it for 2 caribou and a musk ox in 2004, for 5 plains game including black wildebeest and red hartebeest in South Africa in 2005, and killed my elk with it last year. Most were one shot kills.

One of my South African PH's (who also shot a 7mm RM) was constantly amazed at the wound channel that the 160 gr Accubond made in my antelope.

Its all I use in my 300WM with 180's, 270WSM with 140's and 160's in my faterinlaw's 7mmRM, plus 225gr in my 338-06AI. Great bullet. I was so impressed with the performance at the range and on big game (elk/moose/bears/deer) here in Alberta, I traded off all my TSX's for my 300WM and 270WSM for more Accubonds. The longest shot was 554 metres at my 8x7 Whitetail, shortest was 44m at a Mulie buck, avg b/w 150-200m. My cow elk last year flipped over backwards(200m) with the shot from my 270WSM.

Of the bullets I have recovered (3) weight retained b/w 67/83/85 percent. Mostly double lung complete pass thru.

I will be trying the 225gr TTSX's in my 338-06AI but I love the performance at the range so far with my new rifle.

Never tried it but I'd bet a 160Accubond, Fed 215 and RL25 would make for an awesome elk load.

MtnHtr

I hunted south Africa this past May with my Rem. 700 in 300WSM. I handloaded 180gr. Accubonds atop 65.5gr. of IMR4831. This load is very accurate and has been chronographed at just over 3000fps. I took a Kudu, warthog, impala, Burchells zebra and an Oryx with this load. 6 shots, five animals down. I had to shoot the Oryx twice, a tough animal indeed. I recovered only one bullet that went thru the zebras shoulder, took off the top of the heart and lodged in the opposte shoulder. I am very pleased with the retention of weight of this bullet at approx. 66%. Good luck!

buf - thats the kind of info I like. A question or two: Did you recover any bullets and what was so amazing about the wound channel from your antelope?

Thanks.

MP and MT - you guys are getting my attention. The recovered weights are higher than my collection of Paritions. If you don't mind me asking, what factors led to the recovered bullets? Bones, close/long range, moon phase?


If the A-bond is all that plus a high BC, whats not to like.........

I've got some in .308 that I haven't loaded yet. I have shot deer with 130 grain AB in the 6.5X55 from 20 to 400 yards. In my limited experience they are very accurate and terminal performance has been flawless.

I run the 160 AB's in my 7RM ahead of 66.3gr of IMR7828, Winchester case, Fed215 primer and ao OAL 3.460". My Rem 700 shoots 3 shot groups with this load that average .5 and .6" at 100yrds. Cronoed the load at just a few feet short of 3000 in my 24" barrel. As to performance on game, my experiences and those of about 6 friends, are all positive! With at least 4 bulls taken with that 7RM load and around another dozen taken with other AB/caliber combos. The AB is my go to bullet. 2750fps to 3500fps, 50yrds to 850yrds, it has never let me down.

I love the partitions in most calibers over .277....I have not used the Accubonds but I do have some loaded up for my 7x57 and I have a cow elk tag for this year so we'll see...I don't see how it can fail its a bonded core bullet....

bwinters,

One of the recovered AB's was from my NT mulie buck, quartering away....shot behind LFS and travelled thru heart/lungs and thru RFS (bone/muscle) and found bullet in the hide (67 retained)...44metres shot. An hour later I shot my 8x7 Whitetail @ 554 metres - double lung pass thru. I let the buck finish his business with one doe and as he turned broadside to look at another doe...I shot him....fell over backwards dead. Both animals with my 300WM and 180gr AB's...83% retained

Another was from a bull moose @ about 150 metres-broadside at slight angle of quartering away. Same result as the mulie with same rifle (Sako m75ss 300WM)

The other recovered 140gr AB bullet was from a large cow elk couple years ago with my 270WSM. Bullet retained 85%

Small entrance wounds with huge exits with pass thru with major internal distruction to major organs (pulverized lungs).

The only 2 shot animal I know of was my wife with her Tikka T3 LS 270WSM and 140gr AB's... and the only reason was to stop the bull moose from getting into the timber. Her first shot was a double lung pass thru @ 325 metres. The bull turned and ran 20 metres, stopped and she nailed him again...almost in the same spot behind the LF shoulder...perfect bullet placements. The bull dropped. First shot did its job, I just didnt want to work hard with 3ft plus of snow. To say the least I was very proud of her with her first bull moose. And she put the meat on the table that year with the moose and the year before with a cow elk.


That 270WSM caliber with 140gr Accubond sure has impressed me... to the point I hunted with my rifle (identical to my wife's) mostly the last 2 seasons.

Retumbo is the powder with 215 Federal primers for my 270WSM's and RL-22 for the 300WM. Fatherinlaw shoots the factory Winchester Supreme 160gr Accubonds. Had the bullets to reload his but now he loves using one of the 270WSM's.

Hope this helps.

Thanks again. I'm trying them.

I've had very good luck with 140 AB's out of a .270 Win on over a dozen critters total, consisting of deer, elk, and one black bear. After using 150 Partitions for many years, I find the AB's very comparable in many ways and tend to shoot better in my rifle. I shot a fair amount of 140 AB's into dry newsprint and green pine logs before I ever sent an AB into an animal. I needed to feel confident the 140 AB could do it on an elk.

Here is a pic of the 3 I have recovered the rest existed. Sorry to bore all those who have seen this picture before as I have posted it a couple times.

Impressive I was wondering how a 165 grain A|B out of my 300wsm would hold up @3186fps on bone .It ought to do pretty good.

used the 110 AB on 4 pronghorn to date. Leaves the muzzle at 3100 and knocked them all down a little past 200 yards. They do leave a bigger exit hole than I'm used to with the Partition.

Will stick with the Partition on elk tho....

Well, if it sticks around until we have grandkids that hunt, it might be as accepted as the tried and true Partition.

I hate recovering bullets. Too many NPTs stik around for me and the Accubombs have done far worse.

Still looking for the first recoverable X or iteration thereof.

Should be good. I'm getting close to 3100 ft/s with 180s out of my 300WM and 300WSM. IMO 180gr bullets are the best suited for the 300WM / 300WSM caliber.

I only have one Accubond experience it was on an Alberta whitetail. I was using a 160 Accubond out of a 7 RM and frankly was unimpressed, the exit hole was about the size of a dime or smaller.
If I try them again it will be the faster 140 grain.

Why were you unimpressed?

I've only shot one critter with an AB(.270/140gr-whitetail) and got similiar results, small exit. Good IMHO.


FWIW, I've blasted a bunch of them into various test media and they all look pretty much the same. Nice mushrooms with good penetration.
They are definitely alot tougher than convential lead core bullets.

Sam,
Maybe I was unimpressed from years of seeing larger exits from shooting Speer hotcor and Hornady SP.
I am beginning to think I don't like the premiums in general on deer, it is the tiny exits, and with that particular deer I could see his tail flagging through the heavy cover for at least a full minute. However, he did leave a substantial blood trail.

Funny thing is I've only been around two animals shot with "X" bullets and in both cases bullets failed to exit. One buck deer that stopped an X bullet after losing two petals and and a bull elk that stopped 2 of 3 bullets. Both were shot with 180's from a 300 WBY and Win Mag Not a knock on the Barnes product in any way as both animals ended up dead without too much fuss, just and example of how experiences can be quite different.

Gotcha.
I mostly hunt open country so if a critter goes a little ways after being hit it's not a big deal. Really easy to find 'em if they go less than a hundred yards.

Lonny,
Some feel the TSX design is much better than the X.

That could well be as these bullets were of the X variety and I have no experience with the newer versions. Enough people speak highly of them that they must be a quality product.

I have the exact opposite with my deer hunting anyways, and so have put a premium of quick killin' and an exit. My biggest- horned buck, I shot him well with a 7mm-08 and he went a couple hundred yards in the rain... no blood trail I ever found... dusk coming on... not a good feeling. I got really lucky and found him- if he'd gone another 2 feet on his "death dive" into some small xmas trees, I'd have never found him.

So, as I've tried to explain before on this forum, for some types of hunting a bullet that spins off some fragments, does plenty of damage consistantly, and still penetrates trumps a bullet that ONLY penetrates. For me. Not trying to tell anyone else what to do.

How "well" did you shoot him?

GK

I've had great luck with .284 140's @3300fps on muleys

I'm very interested in how 180NAB's @ 3350fps via RUM will hold up on elk shoulders.....work good on paper

Diagonal through the chest, back of one lung, front of the other, 150 Partition.

That was the last time I used that bullet. I killed 6-7 bucks with that load, and a couple of them were fairly unimpressed at first (though they died). That rifle didn't shoot 140's to save it's life.

It's now a .358... and the deer are MOST impressed when hit by it <g>....

I love Accubonds, but personally, just me gabbing here, I'd run the 200-gn version from a RUM.

I run them from my 300 Win Mag and they are a wonderful bullet in every way- at least ballistically. Those things really cut the wind. Noticeably better than the 180 Ballistic Tip, which I believe should have similar flight ballistics to the 180 AB.

However, should you indeed poke a bull in the shoulder with that load, I will be very interested to hear how it works for you, and I wish you good luck in doing so!

Ever thought of busting bone? Mashed bone, and lungs, is good for keeping them close.

I know of other bullets besides the AB that spin off some fragments (at high impact velocity), do plenty of damage (VERY consistently), and penetrate like crazy. One such bullet starts with a T and ends with an X

No way hoser. Those things just pencil on through, won't hardly kill nuthin'. Except a zebra heart.

Don't need to, with a .358! Why I like it.

bwinters, All of the bullets on all animals except the musk ox were pass through's. Caliber size entrance hole, a nickel to quarter size exit hole, and a wound channel through the lungs that I could put my fist through. I shot the musk ox twice as he was quartering away from me. Both shots hit mid body, then to the opposite shoulder. I did not recover them.

Thanks buf!

Jeff: Really sorry to disagree but this is unmitigated BS.Fragments are the red herring in tissue destruction; they are dissipated energy.There may be some damage but it is inconsequential compared to the damage done by the rapid expansion(not disintegration) and frontal area of the bullet itself(the part that remains in one piece? Remember that part?)

Load a Northfork; push it fast.You will get expansion to large frontal area; you will get penetration,AND you will get very extensive damage WITHOUT any fragmentation.

You think fragmentation helps kill because you don't have much experience with bullets that don't fragment.

I've used bullets that do NOT fragment at all,but expand early to a large frontal area,stay in one piece,and the results look like a bomb went off. They still had enough penetration to bust off-side shoulders and sometimes exit.Their kill to shot ratio has been so vastly superior to the fragment type bullets it isn't funny. Yes, even on light game.

If you don't beleive me, go read something like African Rifles and Cartridges, or some other works by guys hunting in Africa,and see the disdain these guys had for bullets that fragmented;they thought such bullets were worthless.Even on here,JJ Hack does not seem to have much use for bullets that fragment,and the killing gets done by the part of the bullet that stays in one piece.Yes expansion is important;fragmentation is not,unless you shoot rodents and coyotes,both teeny animals that take no killing at all."Expansion" and "fragmentation" ar two entirely different things.Expansion is good,if accompanied by enough weight retention to ensure penetration.The fragments contribute little to the process IMHO.

In Africa,they kill LOTS of game;in North America,we mostly talk about it.If fragmentation of bullets was so reliable as a killer of big game, it would find favor in places like Africa;or in Alaska, near as I can tell, it hasn't.

We are a nation of deer hunters,and any second-rate bullet design works on deer, leading to erroneous conclusions about what is "good" bullet performance.

Bob, I will have to disgree. I've been pacing off the distances animals have traveled after being hit solidly in the chest with various bullets for many years now, and bullets that partially fragment kill quicker.

They do create more damage, because that's what I have seen inside animals. The most "fragmenting" bullet I've seen used on big game is the Berger VLD, which essentially totally comes apart (but only after getting inside, since it's the only bullet that doesn't start to expand immediately upon striking an animal). It is also the quickest killer that I've ever seen--which was the same conclusion that some veteran New Zealand guides came to after watching a bunch of game shot with it, expecially feral goats, considered among the toughest-to-drop animals by everybody who's ever shot them.

Yes, non-fragmenting bullets can make a big hole in animals. I have seen such holes a lot, including many similar to that in the infamous "zebra heart" photo that keeps popping up on the Campfire. But I have also seen a VLD turn the heart of a 400-pound animal INSIDE OUT. It did not have a large hole in it. Instead it was converted to a foot-long flap of muscle tissue no more than an inch thick. That is a LOT more damage than any sort of hole.

My experience includes a bunch of animals in Africa too--and not just the several dozen I've shot but a whole pile of meat animals on three cull shoots, where I got to watch a lot animals shot by other hunters as well. On the biggest such shoot (two years ago in South Africa) almost 200 animals were taken, of all sizes up to 1500 pounds or so. The vast majority of the hunters used the latest In Bullets, which were Nosler AccuBonds and Barnes TSX's. Some even used both, shooting AB's in one rifle and TSX's in another. On average the AB's killed quicker.

This is also the same basic conclusion that one major European ammunition company came to, after VERY extensive culling on a variety of animals--and the reason they produce different bullets for different purposes, that fragment to different degrees.

This isn't to say that the extreme penetration of something like a TSX (or Nosler E-Tip, Hornady GMX, North Fork, Trophy Bonded, etc.) isn't often a good thing. I have used such bullets a lot and really like them when really deep penetration is needed. But extreme penetration isn't needed nearly as much as many people evidently think it is.

The average distance that chest-shot animals have run after being hit in the chest with various non-fragmenting bullets has been a little over 50 yards, according to my "pacing" notes. That includes all "big game" animals, not just deer-sized game. The average distance from fragmenting bullets has been shorter, averaging around 20 yards with VLD's (which also have the highest percentage of drop-on-impact lung shots of any bullet I've ever seen used) to 30-35 yards with various semi-fragmenting bullets, whether Hornady Interlocks or Nosler Partitions.

Now, it is often nice to have an exit hole, especially when hunting in what is variously called woods or bush, and even more so when there are a LOT of animals around, whether whitetails or African antelope. This is where the non-fragmenting bullets (and especially the petal-type bullets) have an advantage. But after a number of years of using such bullets I will also note that you'll be usually following a blood trail further when using them than when using bullets that partially fragment.

This doesn't mean I won't be using non-fragmenting big game bullets anymore. I will, because they are indeed best for certain purposes. But I quit believing they are best for ALL hunting a number of years ago, the reason that most of my hunting now takes places with bullets that at least partially fragment--even my elk hunting, because even those supposedly super-tough animals die quicker when hit with an AccuBond rather than an E-Tip.

JB: I know;I really did not expect unanimous agreement on what I said

I know that many don't agree,but I have had so many very good results(certainly not in the same volumes nor amounts as some of these studies,because I'm just one hunter/shooter and cannot afford the research)from the type bullet performance that I've described that I have come to believe it, regardless.

You're in a better position to evaluate this than I am, but I am just going on what my eyeballs and results have told me;I have had some very impressive results with certain bullets that "ain't made no mo" so there is little point talking about them.

Along those lines though,based on what you said, I DID pick up 100 7mm 140 Remington Ultra Bonded,and fully intend to load them in the 7mm RM.Research continues!

Thanks JB and Bob for A. being really civil, B. bringing a wealth of knowledge to a good thread.

To me, the perfect hunting bullet is on the market - Speer Tipped Trophy Bondy Bear Claw. Why they don't bring them out as component bullets is beyond me. I'm tempted to buy a few boxes, pull the bullets and do my own development using a powder or two that has performed well in the past for the 7RM.

I've always like the TBBC but the abysmal BC associated with the "protected point" has prevented my using them. The tipped version should take care of that. Plus give great weight retention, a wide hole, good penetration - in short the perfect bullet

If this type of results (bang/flop) / damage you want...dont use Accubonds.


This is a pic (exit wound with blod shot material cut away) from a 200gr Accubond shot from a 300RUM - maybe 200 metres at a larger bull elk in Alberta couple years ago. Double lung pass thru. Small entrance-HUGE EXIT.

I have had same results with majority mine.

bwinters, you will be happy with the Accubonds for sure. I'm so impressed with them in 140gr from my 270WSM's that I almost prefer hunting with that rifle.

Been using them in factory ammo from 2004 when they first came out in the Winchester Supreme for the 300WM and 270WSM, to now with reloads since 2005.

Bob and JB,

Thanks, to both of you. The civility with which bullet threads have been "allowed" to happen lately is a breath of fresh air.

Bob, my disagreement with you stems solely from two things. First, likely my inexperience, as you note. Roughly 20 deer and 2 elk is my sum total- though I've been around another 4-5 elk killed. Perhaps, the very next animal I kill, will negate what I am about to type below. I can't deny that possibility- that a simple lack of experience accounts for the lack of penetration PROBLEMS that I've seen.

That said, the second, main, reason that I disagree is that I simply have not seen penetration to be the big issue that some seem to have seen. Everything I've shot at deer, exited, with the sole exception of last year's butt-shot buck, in which case the bullet smashed the hip joint and then went lengthwise through the whole deer.

What I HAVE seen as a problem, is animals go a lot farther than I'd like, in the rain... in the jungle... in the approaching dusk. This was, I believe, because my primary hunting rifle for 3-4 years was a Model 7 in 7mm-08, and the only damn thing it would shoot worth beans was the 150-gn Partition, at a MV in the high 2500's somewhere. Several times, I was rather unimpressed by the damage caused by this load, though they always exited. And a couple of my bucks were similarly unimpressed, nearly costing me my biggest-horned buck (double lung shot), who ran over 200 yards over hill and dale...

So, I'll choose a bullet that does the most damage to the vitals as possible, and the physics of the situation are quite simple. IF A BULLET IS GOING TO EXIT ANYWAY, the bullet that spins off some fragments and then exits will do more damage than the bullet that doesn't. And, doing more damage, creating a wider, more diverse wound channel, can ONLY be a good thing.

It also seems to me, that the extra damage in the early part of the wound channel, which more often than not will be a very good place to have it doing that damage. Butt-shot bucks being the exception.

This is just my thinking on the subject. It could be summed up thus: I've seen Core-Lokt, Partitions, Speer, Interlocks, Accubonds, Ballistic Tips, Silvertips, some generic Winchester bullet, and probably another one or two, do nothing but blow right through deer. Also, seen Accubonds blow right through 3/4 of the elk I've seen kilt by them, and the remaining 1 was my big cow at ~300 yards and the bullet made it to the offside hide after striking heavy bone before even entering the chest.

So having seen THAT, my search for the perfect bullet isn't so focused on penetration. Penetration is not a problem. I WANT penetration, but I won't sacrifice killin' power for it, since I HAVE seen that be a problem.

I reserve the right to modify my opinion as more data points are gathered... grin...

One final thought. A mixed-bag African safari isn't deer (or even elk) hunting. In America, we know what we are after when we take to the woods...

Jeff,I am never gonna get in a pissin match with JB or anyone else and will always try to avoid confrontation because there is really nothing to fight about;just slightly different views on a rather complex little subject is all....

That said, I have just not had any issues killing stuff with the bullets I used; I admit to not being terribly experimental,because I did enough of that in my early years,and have not seen any need.Trying to keep up with all the new bullet technology is too daunting and my objective has always been to kill animals and leave the experiments in the hands of those who had the time and resources.

Given that I just used Partitions and Bitterroots(performance of which is kinda like a Northfork,Aframe, or an X bullet with a larger frontal area and about the same weight retention,to put it all in contemporary terms).These have worked fine and I have not had any issues for which I could ever blame the bullet; I have not noticed an absence of lethal effect with either one.

The Partitions are what they are and always have been...reliable and consistent;under high velocity they expand to the partition,and the rear portion keeps going...they do not have very extensive frontal areas,nor high weight retention, but this is neither here nor there because they are consistently lethal,effective,and predictable.Only under very high vellocity and a lot of resistance might they buckle under.I don't know where that point is because I have never seen a Partition "fail" on anything from antelope to Brown Bear.

The Bitterroot was a "different" bullet,sort of a "cult" bullet due to limited production in a day and age(late 60's IIRC)where bullets that would fragment and come unglued under the stresses of high impact velocity, were a dime a dozen.The Bitterroot was designed by Bill Steigers to withstand the stresses associated with the highest impact velocities.They had pure copper jackets,pure lead cores,and were truly bonded(not glued) by a propritery process which sort of enhanced the mystique.But they never failed that I know of.

They were popularized by guys like Jack Carter and John Wooters and Bob Hagel,all of whom used them extensively here and in Africa.In fact it was Carter's inability to get Steigers to into full commercial production that led Carter to invent the TBBC. The Bitterroot also flushed out the Swift Aframe made by lee Reid,and in a conversation I had with Mike Brady, he told me the Bitterroot was the inspiration for the Northfork as we know it today.

The faster you make them go, the better they perform,and the current fad of using "light for caliber" bullets,aka Barmnes,etc, was(is) nothing new to a Bitterroot user from the 60's or 70's;we were doing it routinely back then,and forward in to the 80's.Matter of fact, if you want to make a Bitterroot NOT perform,start it slow. They like speed,lots of it,and will still retain as much or more weight and greater frontal area than anything on the market today,X included.Matter of fact some Bitterroot users were building rifles in the 70's and 80's on a wildcat 404 Jeffrey,necked to 30 caliber and blown out,so they could push 200 gr Bitterroots at 3200+and 180's at 3400....for those born after 1970,does any of this sound familiar?

Ain't much new under the sun,and the reason I don't fall into a swoon at a lot of new cartridges and bullet designs.This stuff has been around for decades!

Damage to an animal from Bitterrots is pretty extensive,and I have had them make gaping exits on even brown bear from a 375; not a 300 gr mind you,but from a 250 gr.One I have downstairs is 7/8" across and still weighs 248 gr after smashing both shoulders of a large grizzly.

I have had mule deer and whitetails from 7 mags and 270's collapse instantly; the kind of results we expect and want from things like BT's and AB's....I once ran 12 straight DRT's on game from pronghorn to elk, before I had one muley push himself downhill 40 yards on his hind legs.Friends had and report similar performance.

Generally the insides of these animals have looked like they swallowed a grenade if impact velocity was high(remember you could not drive them too fast); on one pronghorn shot at app 400 yards,the 130 gr punched through the heart and left a 25 cent piece sized exit. I stopped worrying about enough expansion about that time....and they personified the notion that speed kills...if you use a bullet that can stand the strain.

I go through this lengthy,windy dissertation not to demonstrate that I know a lot about bullets, or know what is "best",or how they all work,or that Bitterroots were the greatest;just to report what I have seen,and maybe demonstrate that it does not take a fragmenting bullet to cause a severe and extensive wound channel;and that it IS possible to have devastating expansion,large frontal area,great penetration,with lots of damage wthout fragmentation,even at high velocity.

I'm at a loss to understand some of the stuff I read on here about guys having problems killing big game;I've found it to be pretty simple really if you remove a lot of the glamour and adrenalin from it.Just whack them in the vitals with a good bullet and it is generally over....Sorry for droning on...

Grat post, Bob! Thanks for the history lesson (really, seriously... that sounds sarcastic... my brain ain't working so well yet today...)

I suppose next you are gonna say that my generation didn't invent sex, eh?

We come at this from opposite perspectives, almost. When you came up, bullet failure was common if not routine. It was a problem. By virtue of me coming into the sport so recently (circa 1999), the lens I see this stuff through is the color of good bullet performance... not a problem.

Interestingly, the availability of easy techno fixes for trajectory also led me straight to heavier for caliber bullets at "sane" velocities. 2900 fps kind of floats my boat. I would expect that to be another kind of fundamental difference between the mindset from way back then (grin) and nowadays; it sure seems like flatness of trajectory was a major point of obsession to folks back then. Guess it still is. But as we've talked about before, bullet problems are minimized when you are running bullets of high SD, at reasonable speeds. They just sorta work.

Anyway, I totally see where you are coming from, and I have zero doubt that it works and works well. And, thanks again for the timeline on those bullet makers. That's pretty cool stuff.

Bob,

That's the big advantage of what I have called a "wide expander" in various articles. The BBC was the original of that whole concept. Its closest approximation these days is the Woodleigh Weld-Core, though the Swift A-Frame is kinda in the same class. The Remington CLU isn't too far off, either, or the Norma Oryx. I have used all enough to know that their main virtue is punching a big hole through the vitals.

The only place I would quibble with your post is the part of about "great penetration" from such bullets. They do tend to penetrate pretty well, but it is a physical impossibility to match the penetration of something like a TSX, E-Tip, etc., (or even a Nosler Partition) when a bullet spreads out to a very wide frontal area. Certainly the wide-expander types tend to penetrate sufficiently on all but extreme angles, but they do not penetrate like the "petal" type bullets, simply because there is so much frontal area.

The TB and North Fork, however, are somewhat different in concept and results. They have the solid shank of the TSX and others, with a much smaller lead core bonded into the front end of the bullet--and in the North Fork, only the front quarter of the bullet. Thus they are sort of a compromise between the petal-type bulets and what might be called the "full-core" bonded bullets like the BBC, Woodleigh, Oryx and others. In my experience the North Fork penetrates more than the TB, on average, just because it doesn't open up as widely.

I would be very interested in hearing about cores being glued to jackets in "bonded" bullets. I have talked to a lot of bulletmakers and have yet to hear about that. All that I've talked to bond the cores to the jackets by heating up the bullet until the core starts to melt.

Bonding is a useful thing, but not magic. Mike Brady told me that the little dab of lead in the front end of North Forks didn't need to be bonded, because the bullets would work pretty much the same way without the bonding. (From what I have seen he was right.) But the word "bonded" helped sell bullets to true believers.

This is a great thread with some really good information/discussion. I particulaly liked Bob's line about just reporting on what he has seen, which is how John always presents his thoughts as well. Presenting information in this way is so much more useful than declaring absolutes. Thanks to everyone who has contributed in this fashion.

John, correct me if I am wrong, but I seem to remember that when the first Trophy bonded bullets came out they were a full core bullet similar to the Bitterroot?

I seem to recall they were as well, but that the jacket was very thick toward the base. I don't think that model lasted all that long, though, maybe a year or two.

I run the 160's in my 7mm rem mag, I love them, won't use any others

I use the 160 gr AB in my 280 AI at 3000 fps. Accuracy is excellent and it works very well on WT deer. The blood trail can be seen behind this buck.


JD338

They work great as long as they hold together. Here's the core of one that I found in my elk's heart. It blew the shoulder to mush. 180 gr, 300 WSM, approx 300 yds.

Call me a Luddite, but I am sticking with the Partition.

Lots to be said for Ludditeism (Luddism? Luddentia?) Whatever the correct term is, there are times that it is a very good position.

Yessir, it's hard to see any regret coming from that choice!

Here's a hog i took this past weekend with a Browning 7mm shooting 160g Federal Premium factory Accubonds.

The hole on the right is the entrance, the hole leaving the off side is small and showed little bullet expansion. At long range, these bullets are incredible, but at close range, i've had issues with the bullet moving too fast and not allowing for expansion.



The hog was quartering away pretty hard and running, but died after a quick 40 yard run. I've taken deer (muleys/blacktails/whitetails), bear, and hogs using this same round and always the same performance...dead critters, but i'm always a little hesitant taking the close shots -under 70 yards.

"but at close range, i've had issues with the bullet moving too fast and not allowing for expansion."

I see this comment surprisingly often, and I never understand it. It would seem intuitive that the faster a given bullet is traveling, the more resistance it will encounter (increases with the square of velocity, IIRC), and hence the FASTER it will expand.

A given bullet should expand faster at higher velocity, oorrect? And "pencilling thru because it is going too fast" just shouldn't happen. Right?

Ok, you experts, what say you?

I definately agree with ya, doesn't make much sense to me either, just going off my experience with the caliber and bullet.

Three weeks ago i hit a bear broadside in the heart with the same bullet and gun, great expansion at the entrance and exit. That shot was at 300 yards.

Again, i'm definately not a rifle/bullet/caliber expert or claim to be one. I'm a bow hunter that picks up the rifle every now and then for fun.

Southtexas, thanks for your follow up reply, look forward to hearing what the experts have to say.

kirk.

Here's my second hog from this past weekend, this shot was around 60 yards. You can see the entrance just behind the ear and the exit hole was the same diameter -small.

Maybe i'm expecting this bullet to expand more, but since it's bonded, guess its designed to stay together a little more than a soft point or ballistic tip. Man, i'm going back to my bow.

Kirk - that do sound counter-intuitive. On the first picture are you sure the entry was from the right and exit on the left? I'd guess the other way around.........

Yep, the hog was breaking hard and away to my right, it's most definately the entry. I had similar bullet performance on a blacktail once, the deer was feeding 20 yards away, quartering hard and my bullet hit and took out 6 ribs, leaving an entry hole that was almost 7" wide.

Expansion at the entry is most violent, and the bullet may start to peel back close to the shank of the bullet as it penetrates. By the time it exits, it's often times narrower than it was mid-way through its course of penetration, causing a smaller exit wound than entry wound.

In my opinion what appears to be excessive expansion on the entrance was caused by the hard quartering away angle. This type of "unzipping" isn't uncommon on hard angles. The bullet clipped three ribs before traveling through the hog where it hit a more flat surface on the exit which makes it look like a lack of expansion, which really wasn't the case.

That big of an entrance wound, small exit, and high velocity could also spell a separated core - however unlikely that might seem.

Either way, you took home the hog...a good hunting result anyway one slices it...

I thought they were bonded?..................

You are correct sir....and pretty tasty little suckers too.

I'm reopening this thread rather than starting a new one with my hunt info:

Last week - 5 point mule deer angling away at 150 yds. Shot through posterior left lung and out right lung and shoulder with 180 gr Accubond. Never found the bullet. Very large wound channel and significant destruction of meat in right front quarter.

Next day (good hunt, for a change ): 6 x 6 elk very slightly angling away at 310 yds, moderately downhill. Double lung shot with 180 gr TSX. No exit hole found - searched but did not find bullet. I've asked meat processor to look for it in chest wall.

Rifle: Custom .300 Wby. Both loads were factory Wby ammo.

I'm obviously very happy with my hunt's results. The muley went 15 yards. The elk stood still in his tracks for about 15 - 20 seconds and then dropped. I am however a little surprised to not see a through-and-through with the Barnes based on reports here and other sites.

I neglected to add the reason I added my hunt info to this thread. I used the AB for deer and the TSX for elk making the assumption that the Accubond was a better bullet for smaller game. I've used the Barnes X previously with fairly good success and assumed more penetration was better for larger bodied game. Having read this thread, with JB's comments, I'm no longer so sure.

I have two upcoming potential hunts and am deciding what to work up for new loads now that I've collected brass and components. I'd prefer to take only one bullet type on either hunt, based both on terminal performance and assuming good groups with my rifle.

NWT Dall Sheep - clearly the Accubond would be a great choice, particularly if a longish shot is necessary (as would the TSX). But is either bullet a liability if we're forced to make a defense shot on a grizzly (obviously only at close range).

Plains game Africa, probably Namibia - mostly elk sized and larger animals. It sounds like from Mule Deer's experience the AB would be fine.

As everyone who reads my posts knows, I am a big fan of AccuBonds. In fact, the only bullets that I have acquired and tried in the last three years have been ABs (with the sole exception of a couple of boxes of 150 gr 7mm E-tips that I traded for here on the 'fire).

For the last three years, I have been trying to take an elk with my Ruger No. 1H in 9.3x74R. The first year, I carried another rifle in bad weather and killed the largest bull that I have ever taken. Last year, I passed up a number of so-so 5x5s and ended up getting skunked.

After splitting a beef with a neighbor last year for winter meat, I was determined to bring home some elk venison this year. I had only one tag: an either sex tag for the first rifle hunt in Colorado. Late in the afternoon of the second day, I had a chance at a middling 5x5 at about 165 yds. Remembering all of those that I had passed on last year, I decided to go ahead and take him.

I was carrying my 9.3x74R with 250 ABs that chronograph about 2,650 fps 15 ft from the muzzle. The first shot went a bit awry, breaking the near shoulder, destroying the dorsal lobes of the lungs and clipping the scapula on the far side as it exited. The animal dropped at the shot, but struggled back to his feet. The second shot went where the first one should have: it entered just behind the near shoulder about 1/3 of the way up from the bottom of the chest, taking out the rest of the lungs, breaking a rib going in and another on the far side going out. The exit holes were between the size of a quarter and a half-dollar.

I was concerned that the first shot had ruined a lot of meat, but the bloodshot tissue was confined to a very small circle around the shattered humerus. I have had similar results on large bull elk in the U.S, and on plains game in Namibia with 260 ABs in a .375 H&H. I had the same results with a 200 AB in a .300WSM on a very large bull elk two years ago.

They work wonderfully well in my guns and all the game we have shot with them.

I shot a large bodied whitetail with 140 gr Accubond out of a 270 win. last year. Exit hole was tiny with very little blood. Vitals were mush. Thought was strange but good results. Entry hole was slightly larger than exit.

X is all you need, for everything..

I have only shot one bear with the 150 grain Accubond in 308 and it blew right through both shoulders at only 20 yards. I played with them this summer at the range and have developed a nice 2760 fps load with my 308 and are planning on taking them to Albera with me in two weeks for whitetails and mule deer. I find they hit exactly with the 150 grain ballistic tips out to 300 yards.

My buddy shot a 1000 lb moose in Sept. with a 7 MM REM mag and a 160 grain Accubond with a complete pass through (behind the shoulder at 200 meters).

I am really starting to like the Accubonds. They fly flat, penetrate great and seem to be damn accurate. I hope to have some further test results with them in Alberta in mid-Nov!

I have become pretty confident in the Accubonds performance.

In my opinion, they are as accurate as any bullet.
Also, they have enough penetration without sacrificing expansion and damage.

I have been shooting 160gr AB's out of my 7mm WSM for quite a few years and have taken quite a few deer and a couple elk anywhere from 25 feet to 400+ yards. To be honest I have found a fair amount of the bullets. They are usually just inside of the far hide and have never exploded on impact as some claim even at close range out of my short mag. The damage has always been devastating and the animals haven't gone far at all.

I have recently started shooting a 200gr AB out of my new 325 WSM. I shot a caribou last month at 391 yards and found the bullet in the far hide. There was a lot of jello in between the hole and the slug. I shot my second caribou just behind the jaw and made some huge holes in and out.

I obviously would love to always have two blood trails, but will take a "B" grade in penetration, an "A" grade in accuracy and an "A" grade in damage any day out of a bullet.

For me the priority order is:
1) Accuracy
2) Damage (Expansion / Retention)
3) Penetration

Cacciatore,

I killed two elk with the Accubond from my .325 last year. Couldn't be happier. Great bullet. Also shot through a deer lengthwise with it.

From the front or the back?!?!?!?!? Just teasin'.

I have been really satisfied with them. In fact, many of my hunting group have recently converted. Se we cover the list below of happy hunters and calibers.

Me: 160gr 7mm WMS & 200gr 325 WSM
Dad: 180gr 300 Win Mag
Cousin Tom: 160gr 7mm WSM
Cousin Wyatt: 140gr 270 WSM
Cousin Weston: 180gr 300 WSM

If we had an ounce of sense, we would all have just bought 300 WSM shooting 180gr AB's and all had the same damn shells rather than worrying about grabbing the wrong ones.
But that would be boring......

Hey Jeff O.

The last picture of my thread "Quebec Caribou Hunt Report" in the Big Game forum is the 2nd bull I shot with my 325. In order to get the head off, all I had to do was cut a small patch of hide on the back of the neck and the throat. Needless to say, there wasn't much chance of saving the hide.

I have been shooting and hunting with the 160 gr Nosler Partition in my (2) 7mm Rem Mags that I have owned for 45 years. The rifle I have now (a Custom stocked and smithed Mark X-Parker Hale) has been shooting the 160 gr Partition exclusively for 30 years. I have not hunted as much with this rifle as with some of my Model 70's over the years but the rifle has always performed well although I don't prefer this caliber for elk.

I use a max load of IMR7828 with a magnum primer and the load consistantly shoots sub-MOA groups. I have killed probably a dozen deer and one elk with this rifle. The Partition bullets always performed perfectly for me with all game in this caliber.

I just bought a box of 250 grain .338 Accubonds for my .340 Weatherby Mag and will be developing loads for this rifle soon. I am looking forward to seeing how they shoot in this rifle.

I suppose my sample of one doesn't count for a whole lot, though I loaded up a few .277" 140 grain Accubonds for a friend's 270 WSM. The load was either 60 or 60.5 (can't recall exactly offhand) grains of RL-19, so the bullet was probably travelling about 3050-3100fps at the muzzle.

He shot a small whitetail doe at about 200 yards at last light while hunting with agricultural damage tags. Shot was a bit back, caught some lungs/liver, bullet broke a rib on the entrance and exit, deer dropped in its tracks. Index finger sized exit, insides were mush. He is happy with it so far, hopefully he'll have a few more samples with it this season.

southtexas: No expert here,and I agree with you.....but you hear this comment a lot and I suspect what happens is that with some bullets the guilding metal jackets are brittle,and unable to withstand the impact of high velocity and maintain the broader frontal area we associate with "good" expansion. The brittle jacket material shatters,or breaks off,along with the core material(not pure lead),leaving a wadcutter effect that zips on through...leaving the impression there was no "expansion";there wasn't...there was disintegration.Not the same thing.

We got "lucky" once and recovered a 130 Hornady fired from a 270 Weatherby into a Colorado muley;it had sheared off right at the cannelure,leaving just a 270 cal wadcutter. I have a funny feeling this sometimes happens with BarnesX bullets,too.

Jacket and core material is important;guilding metal tends to be brittle;ditto anitmony cores.This is the reason TBBC's lost their good reputation when Federal took them over because they abandoned Jack Carter's original recipe of pure lead,and pure copper,and went to more brittle jackets and cores to facilitate manufacturing.JMHO

Those who have hunted much know you don't always get bang flops with a perfect shot any given bullet or cal.; however that has been my experence with my a-bolt 270 WSM and 140gr a-bonds on my last 6 deer. One ecception doe hit a bit less then perfect, bang 30yds then flop. All at 300yds or more in open WV farm country hill to hill. Also my son killed one with Savage 270 Win. 400yds bang flop. Tack driving accuracy with both rifles. Needless to say I'm sold on them. Haven't tried 130gr a-bond yet??

I have shot deer and antelope with 264 Winchester @ 3300 fps, from a 270 Winchester @ 3050, a 7/338RUM @ 3650, 300 Saum @ 3150. I have not recoverd a single bullet from 12 kills. The shots were from 25 yds to 530 yds. All the exits look the same no matter which rifle was used. The very repectable BC make them a great choice in open country. I am having difficulty finding more 150`s in 30 caliber, if anyone knows where I can find them, thanks.

From the back. Oops! Was thinking I'd slip it behind the last rib on a sharply quartering-away deer, and, well, I was wrong.

40 yards away, the bullet smashed the hip joint, went the length of the deer, and ended up under his chin. 70 % weight retention.

I hear ya on the 300 WSM, but... .325 is just better, and if the sheeple don't see that it's not OUR fault, right?

KirkEDGE,

Did you field-dress the pig yourself?

I ask this because an awful lot of people, seeing a small exit hole, assume the bullet did not expand. But that normally isn't the case, and the way to find out is to examine the organs inside the chest cavity. If they have a big hole in them, then yes, the bullet did expand.

The small exit hole is common with a lot of bullets, and they don't even have to turn into wadcutters, as BobNH has pointed out they sometimes do. Nosler Partitions, for example, tend to leave an exit hole just a little larger than the bullet's original diameter, yet normally tear a good-sized hole in the lungs, especially the lung nearest the entrance hole. This is because a Partition opens up violently (the front end is very soft lead) and then the frontal jacket often folds back along the shank of the bullet.

AccuBonds work similarly. Often they end up expanded a little wider than a Partition, but at close range the frontal jacket folds back along the shank, or even breaks off.

Knowing Kirk, he had his porter Tony do all the dirty work - finding, gutting, dragging..