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#3161388 - 07/17/09 Re: WOW, M1 carbine ammo... [Re: bcp]
The_Real_Hawkeye Offline
Campfire Oracle

Registered: 06/12/02
Posts: 70620
Loc: Northern Florida
Originally Posted By: bcp
If anyone shot at a North Korean Commie and he didn't go down, it was because they missed him. Because frozen clothing sure won't slow down a .30 Carbine.
Exactly. The idea of it bouncing off clothing is absurd. What happened was that they wore many layers of this fluffy clothing, and it made the soldiers look twice as thick as they really were. Soldier shot at enemy soldier, saw the puff of dust kick up off clothes, it was a glancing shot, soldier (feeling the pain from the shot) goes down, realizes he's not badly wounded, gets up again.
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#3161416 - 07/17/09 Re: WOW, M1 carbine ammo... [Re: bcp]
The_Real_Hawkeye Offline
Campfire Oracle

Registered: 06/12/02
Posts: 70620
Loc: Northern Florida
Originally Posted By: bcp
From:
http://ammo.ar15.com/project/Self_Defense_Ammo_FAQ/index.htm#.30%20carbine

.30 carbine

From Doctor Roberts: "The best ammunition choices for the M1 Carbine are the Remington 110 gr JSP (R30CAR) and the Corbon 110 gr JHP DPX loading using the all copper Barnes X bullet. The Remington load has an average velocity of 1864 f/s, expands to around .54” to .58” and penetrates 13” to 16” whether in bare gelatin, through automobile windshields, or Level IIIa body armor. This is comparable intermediate barrier performance to many good .223 loads. Likewise, the Corbon DPX load penetrates 18.9" and expands to 0.56" in bare gelatin. The Winchester 110 gr JSP also works reasonably well, but has a bit smaller permanent wound channel compared to the Remington or Corbon DPX load. In addition, the new Speer 110 gr Gold Dot carbine load appears very promising based on the factory test data released at SHOT 2009"




New data shows that the 110gr Speer Gold Dot bonded soft point load is also a very effective performer. Penetration is in the 16-17" range through most of the FBI barrier test with near perfect expansion. Velocity at 10ft averages right at 2000fps.
When is the Speer Gold Dot supposed to hit the market?
_________________________
"The Federal Reserve is one of the most corrupt institutions the world has ever known. It has impoverished the people of the United States through the corrupt practices of the moneyed vultures who control it." -- Congressman McFadden, 1932

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#3161595 - 07/17/09 Re: WOW, M1 carbine ammo... [Re: derby_dude]
Cheesehunter Offline
Campfire Guide

Registered: 01/29/07
Posts: 2739
Loc: Wesconsin
You can order M1 carbine ammo here.

All of the ammo I've bought from them has been very good.
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#3161740 - 07/17/09 Re: WOW, M1 carbine ammo... [Re: The_Real_Hawkeye]
GunGeek Online   content
Campfire Kahuna

Registered: 10/09/04
Posts: 18864
Loc: NW Nevada
All too often people forget that the little carbine was a replacement for a handgun…it’s a Carbine, not a rifle. In an urban environment, with fighting at short ranges the Carbine could be nearly ideal. As for the cartridge, most FMJ cartridges tend to suck. Stoke a Carbine with a 110 JHP like the Winchester factory load, or a the 110 grain X bullet load from Cor-Bon, and predictably, it becomes a whole new animal, with power outstripping a .357 magnum. Now add in that the M1 Carbine could hold its own with the AK in the reliability department and now the little carbine begins to rise to the top. For defense of my neighborhood, I’ll take an X bullet loaded M1 Carbine over any AR. Sure, the AR an accuracy edge, but the Carbine is a much more reliable weapon, and certainly accurate enough for anything you’re likely to encounter. And inside 100 yards, I’m betting a 110 grain X bullet from a .30 carbine will do more soft tissue damage than any 5.56 FMJ.

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#3161765 - 07/17/09 Re: WOW, M1 carbine ammo... [Re: rost495]
GunGeek Online   content
Campfire Kahuna

Registered: 10/09/04
Posts: 18864
Loc: NW Nevada
Originally Posted By: rost495
Third, I'll take field data every last time. You can do all the testing you want, but that means very little in the real world often. My real world was full of pigs and 110 JHP WW ammo. Shot from around 10 yards out to about 65 or so, I"d take my Kimber 45 every last time. ANd the rest of the folks I've talked to agree.
Whoa, there's your problem. You shouldn't be using high velocity lightweight JHP's with little sectional density on something like a pig; results are rather predictable on this one. The bullet is going to open up and essentially rip itself apart when going through tough swine flesh. If you want to kill hogs with a .30 Carbine, the 110 SP does the job just fine when you place your shots with care. A hog's muscle tissue is far thicker and more dense than a humans. Lightweight bullets that would perform very well against two legged threats would be completely insufficient for a hog.

I used to carry my Carbine as "backup" when we went on knife hunts; never failed me and tended to be about perfect for the job. Never mind carrying a low recoil 5.5lb rifle that shoots fast when it counts.
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#3162144 - 07/17/09 Re: WOW, M1 carbine ammo... [Re: bcp]
BMT Offline
Campfire Kahuna

Registered: 11/10/02
Posts: 18576
Loc: Alvadore, Oregon
Originally Posted By: bcp
Frozen clothing and the 30 Carbine:
http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot36.htm

Lessons learned:
1. If anyone shot at a North Korean Commie and he didn't go down, it was because they missed him. Because frozen clothing sure won't slow down a .30 Carbine.

2. The old warhorse, the .45 ACP Ball, isn't exactly "weak" in the penetration category either.

3. I don't know how this rumor got started, but it looks like it was completely false.

4. The .30 Carbine, as we have noted before, is highly underrated in many categories.

5. Shooting stuff is fun.


God Love the Box-Of-Truth
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"The Church can and should help modern society by tirelessly insisting that the work of women in the home be recognized and respected by all in its irreplaceable value." Apostolic Exhortation On The Family, Pope John Paul II

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#3163606 - 07/18/09 Re: WOW, M1 carbine ammo... [Re: GunGeek]
rost495 Online   content
Campfire Oracle

Registered: 01/05/05
Posts: 38379
Loc: La Grange, TX
Originally Posted By: KevinGibson
Originally Posted By: rost495
Third, I'll take field data every last time. You can do all the testing you want, but that means very little in the real world often. My real world was full of pigs and 110 JHP WW ammo. Shot from around 10 yards out to about 65 or so, I"d take my Kimber 45 every last time. ANd the rest of the folks I've talked to agree.
Whoa, there's your problem. You shouldn't be using high velocity lightweight JHP's with little sectional density on something like a pig; results are rather predictable on this one. The bullet is going to open up and essentially rip itself apart when going through tough swine flesh. If you want to kill hogs with a .30 Carbine, the 110 SP does the job just fine when you place your shots with care. A hog's muscle tissue is far thicker and more dense than a humans. Lightweight bullets that would perform very well against two legged threats would be completely insufficient for a hog.

I used to carry my Carbine as "backup" when we went on knife hunts; never failed me and tended to be about perfect for the job. Never mind carrying a low recoil 5.5lb rifle that shoots fast when it counts.


Our experiences with the JHP is that they didn't open up like a normal HP bullet, and as such, didn't kill all that quickly. More like my 32-20.

As to carbine vs pistol, at what folks are considering carbine ranges, I'm just as happy with my 1911, if I wanted to carry the length and weight of the carbine it would be a short AR, and as to the inference of the AR not being as reliable, thats only an issue if you don't know what you are doing with it as far as I can tell.

I have NOT shot a pig with a soft point, so you may be right on there, maybe the hide/shields etc plugged the HP part and that was an issue. I do know this, a pig shot with a 30 carbine HP bullet dies about as fast as when I shoot em in the ribs with my 22 lr MK2 and HPs... which is fast enough for me by all means, but then again what would I want to pack that carbine for when my MK2 is good to 50 yards easy...

I suspect some of this will boil down to personal preference really.

And its a shame we lost the lease that was full of pigs since the 80s, there went my prime test ground because we could shoot 3-7 or so pigs every other weekend if we wanted to...
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May the road rise to meet you, May the wind be always at your back, May the sun shine warm upon your face, The rains fall soft upon your fields and, Until we meet again, May God hold you in the palm of His hand.

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#3164080 - 07/18/09 Re: WOW, M1 carbine ammo... [Re: rost495]
Mannlicher Offline
Campfire Oracle

Registered: 11/08/03
Posts: 49176
Loc: N. Central Florida, and Miami
I have killed a number of feral dogs and hogs with the .30 Carbine 110 SP bullet. I much prefer a .44 Mag 270 grain over the 110 .30 bullet, but it will do the job.

Georgia Arms is back in stock with their 110 SP, at $25/50 rounds.
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Sam......


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#3164697 - 07/19/09 Re: WOW, M1 carbine ammo... [Re: Mannlicher]
oldtimer303 Offline
Campfire Guide

Registered: 12/16/08
Posts: 3439
Loc: missouri
Recently purchased a Ruger single action in 30 carbine as it had several hundred bullets, brass, dies & primers with it. Was low on rifle ammo and having hard time finding it. So took the package deal to get the reloading components. Buddy who shoots same is loading the cartridges for me. Looking forward to shooting the handgun. Appears to have approx same power as a 357.

M1 carbine is a fun gun even if it is short on the power side. GW
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#3165728 - 07/19/09 Re: WOW, M1 carbine ammo... [Re: oldtimer303]
Mannlicher Offline
Campfire Oracle

Registered: 11/08/03
Posts: 49176
Loc: N. Central Florida, and Miami
wear your muffs when you touch that off. .30 Carbine Ruger SA is the LOUDEST handgun out there. smile
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#3165932 - 07/19/09 Re: WOW, M1 carbine ammo... [Re: Mannlicher]
derby_dude Offline
Campfire Oracle

Registered: 11/22/06
Posts: 34261
Loc: Montana, Lewis and Clark Count...
Originally Posted By: Mannlicher
wear your muffs when you touch that off. .30 Carbine Ruger SA is the LOUDEST handgun out there. smile


I would bet so seeing as how the round was designed to work in an 18" barrel. I would imagine not all the powder is burned in a pistol length barrel. But heck I'm no expert and could be wrong.
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#3165958 - 07/19/09 Re: WOW, M1 carbine ammo... [Re: derby_dude]
bcp Offline
Campfire Guide

Registered: 03/05/05
Posts: 4359
Loc: SW WA
If you don't need the same ammunition to work in both the Carbine and the Ruger, just load the pistol cartridges using 32-20 data.

Bruce

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#3166111 - 07/19/09 Re: WOW, M1 carbine ammo... [Re: bcp]
DigitalDan Offline
Campfire Kahuna

Registered: 05/02/04
Posts: 24894
Loc: Yankeetown, Fl
I'm at a distinct disadvantage in evaluating the debate here, some truths evident on both sides, or all three sides, such as it is. Part of the problem is my experience disagrees with much of what's written here. Not saying your experience is a load of hooey, but then, neither is mine.

Subject being M1 carbine ammo availability: Is available if you look for it, mostly Ball production. That ain't a bad thing necessarily because it minimizes the probability or perhaps I should say possibility of F-T-Feed. To tell the truth, I've never had one, in the M1 carbine, M16, CAR15, M3 or M14. Darn ol' milspec rifles always worked for me. I don't personally know a soul that ever had a malfunction in an M16 in combat. A guess on my part, but I've probably fired more rounds from the -16 than 99.9% of the members here...if not all.

Side bar(s)

Accuracy isn't the domain of the M1 but the one I owned some years ago was good for 9 out of 10 on a 10" steel at 100 meters offhand, factory or hand loads. I never tried that with the M16 but it was good for M.O.D. a fair bit further. That particular target standard is a good bit smaller than an average Japanese BTW.

Carry: Never carried an M4, but probably don't want to. Probably would get the food processor hung up on something. Or whatever all that crap is they mount on them these days. They are heavy. Difference between the -16 and M1 is a wash to me. The carbine is lighter, but the -16 has a handle. Neither is a burden to carry, both are easy to bring to bear and ballistics are not arguably different inside 100 meters. Now I have seen each put down an NVA with a butt stroke and there is no discernible difference in result. Same result with the other end.

Other comparisons: Apples to apples, the Carbine is not a Garand, a -14, -16, or a standard issue 1911. It is what it is. I shall not exhort the merits or demerits of any. Well, maybe except the 1911. It is without fault and if you can't hit somebody at 25 yards with one, get yourself a handicapped parking decal.

Penetration: I've seen two scenarios with .22 caliber rounds that put a question to relative importance of this subject in the Man vs. Man role. One was a mature elephant that went down to a single round from a M16 (brain shot) a few miles east of the A Shau Valley. I've also noticed a failure of people to stop penetration of the round with their bodies. The other is my penchant for shooting hogs with .22 CB Shorts. The conundrum is this: If they (CBs) will reliably suffice in this application, what is the significance of the discussion on penetration, frozen clothes or drug crazed zombies? I'm not implying bigger is wrong, but how much deader are hogs or whatever after they've been so addressed? Granted I am going for CNS shots and picking my circumstances, but so far as terminal ballistics are concerned, the question stands.

Terminal Ballistics: If your litmus is FPE, stop reading here. If you give credence to more complex analysis such as wound channels and such there comes a point where one has to acknowledge FMJ and Soft Point exhibit different characteristics. Awareness of that should, by all reasonable accounts, govern how you use them. I would debate, vigorously, that M1 carbine ball is more destructive than it's counterpart in the M16. I've seen a lot of creatures and people die from the -16, none took a second shot to dispatch. Those that I've seen close after the fact had rather nasty wounds, usually on the off side. For clarification I am speaking of the ammo used in the Vietnam era, not today's long slow torpedoes from fast twist barrels. (A mistake in my opinion)

All of this is my long winded way of saying it really doesn't matter what you use so long as you use in well. Know your gun and load gents, use what you like and don't worry too much about what the Jones are up to. Shoot small.
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#3166667 - 07/20/09 Re: WOW, M1 carbine ammo... [Re: DigitalDan]
rost495 Online   content
Campfire Oracle

Registered: 01/05/05
Posts: 38379
Loc: La Grange, TX
DD, nice summary!
_________________________
May the road rise to meet you, May the wind be always at your back, May the sun shine warm upon your face, The rains fall soft upon your fields and, Until we meet again, May God hold you in the palm of His hand.

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#3166885 - 07/20/09 Re: WOW, M1 carbine ammo... [Re: rost495]
Bootsfishing Offline
Campfire Guide

Registered: 05/29/02
Posts: 4679
Loc: Not far enough from Atlanta!
Anyone else see this taken from the Wisconsin Cartridge.com site ..... http://www.wisconsincartridge.com/productcart/pc/wiscartridge1-attention.pdf
under their notice regarding product availability?
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"When I stand before God at the end of my life, I would hope that I would not have a single bit of talent left, and could say, "I used everything you gave me."


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#3166933 - 07/20/09 Re: WOW, M1 carbine ammo... [Re: Bootsfishing]
derby_dude Offline
Campfire Oracle

Registered: 11/22/06
Posts: 34261
Loc: Montana, Lewis and Clark Count...
I think everybody is stocking up for the inevitable civil/revolutionary war that is coming.
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Don't vote knothead, it only encourages them. Anonymous

"Never underestimate the power of stupid people in large groups." Anonymous

"Self-reliance, free thinking, and wealth is anathema to both the power of the State and the Church." Derby Dude



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#3166946 - 07/20/09 Re: WOW, M1 carbine ammo... [Re: derby_dude]
eh76 Offline
Campfire Oracle

Registered: 12/17/06
Posts: 52674
Loc: North of Liberalism in Wyoming
I need a 38 snubnose a buddy gave me 500 rds of 38 Special. He also gave me 500 rds of 380 but I gave it to a friend that had to 380's to feed.
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Liberalism is a mental disorder that leads to social disease.

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#3167176 - 07/20/09 Re: WOW, M1 carbine ammo... [Re: eh76]
chuck_tree Offline
Campfire Regular

Registered: 02/09/05
Posts: 1292
Loc: Herndon, Virginia
I remember reading a quote from a GI in the Europe in World War 2. He said that he shot a German 8 times with the M1 Carbine and that the German still lived long enough to shoot him.

That said, my father carried a carbine during World War 2. And my Uncle deer hunted in Michigan with one.

Chuck

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#3167180 - 07/20/09 Re: WOW, M1 carbine ammo... [Re: chuck_tree]
378Canuck Offline
Campfire Tracker

Registered: 11/06/06
Posts: 5006
Is he the governor of California?
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It is better to be judged by 12 than to be carried by 6.

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#3167193 - 07/20/09 Re: WOW, M1 carbine ammo... [Re: 378Canuck]
chuck_tree Offline
Campfire Regular

Registered: 02/09/05
Posts: 1292
Loc: Herndon, Virginia
smile

I guess when bang-flop fails, it can be most embarrassing.

(Obviously, he may not have hit the German as many times as he thought. Or the German could have been on go-pills. Or, any number of other possibilities.)

Chuck

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#3167196 - 07/20/09 Re: WOW, M1 carbine ammo... [Re: chuck_tree]
378Canuck Offline
Campfire Tracker

Registered: 11/06/06
Posts: 5006
Just kidding, I've heard humans on adrenalin do some super human feats so this would be possible, that's why 50 cal tac rifles were born and now they can clobber them to a kilometer no problemo. LOL
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