Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Handguns Opinions on Kimber Target 10mm?

Greetings all: I borrowed my brother's Delta Elite to see if I would prefer it for deer hunting to my Dan Wesson .44. Holy Bleep Batman! All he had was some American Eagle 180's to try it with, but I was shooting better with that 1911 than with any other handgun I own. But he won't sell it to me...Brothers!
I should mention to be fair that it's a First edition Stainless. Anyway, I went into my local merchant of death and they had no DE's but a nice looking Kimber Target Model in 10mm. I know Kimber has had several incarnations, and I think I remember warnings about quality of certain vintages. Anybody have the facts on that, or first-hand opinions of the pistol in general?
I'm reluctant to buy this one without any ammo to test it with on day one (NOBOCY locally has any, I'm waiting for a Cabelas backorder to come in), but it looks good, is tight, and doesen't seem overpriced at $825. Thanks in advance. FONMAN

I would take the Kimber over the Delta Elite any day.

I don't recall any warnings or problems with Kimber 10mm 1911's, but the Colt Deltas have had a few in the past.
Both are currently excellent guns. I've got a stainless target Kimber .45 which is just about as good as it gets.
I've shot three different Colt Elites, one extensively. Nice guns.
I'd make sure I got fully adjustable sights on whatever you buy. E

A gunsmith I trust told me that Kimbers don't haven enough lug engagement to run right.

What does this gunsmith think about the Dan Wesson 1911s?

I have ad a Kimber Target II in 10mm for six years - love it. It works great. I even sent it back to factory to have front strap checkered (I don't like skateboard tape on my guns) and adjustable night sights installed.

I functions wonderfully, though I confess that it has only seen 180 grain bullets launched at 1200 fps in my handloads.

FWIW, I had a Delta Elite in 10mm about 20 years ago, bought new. Disappointed with the pistol, sold it. I like the Kimber a lot better.

My next pistol will most likely be a new Kimber in a 10mm caliber! I own 3 Kimber pistols and they have all shot very accurately with good ammo right out of the box.

I hear a lot of chit chat about Kimber NOT being good quality anymore! I have handled and shot at least a dozen new Kimbers in the last 2 years and nothing have ever been a problem but one gentleman who brought to the range a box of wad-cutters someone else handloaded for him. Those were 180 grain bullets I believe.

My Kimbers work like a Swiss Clock! They never miss a beat with my reloads and good factory ammo. I do have a carry model that perfers hardball ammo (accuracy sake) over lighter hollow points but it does nothing to muddy the water on the guns accuracy, especially under 35ft. So to sum things up, I too would select the KIMBER over the Colt 2 to 1 ok.

I see folks shooting Kimbers all the time in IDPA matches... last Saturday there were 4 guys in my group of 12 shooters running Kimbers in the CDP class. All 4 of them had at least one malfunction... and a couple guys had multiple failures. These were all stock pistols... shooting both handloads and factory loads. Truth be told though... about 9 out of 10 failures I see in an IDPA match are with 1911 style guns... coincidence? I think not.

Those Kimbers may be fine at the range... I've shot a few... and they were flawless. But, put them in a situation where the operator is under stress... and all bets are off.

As far as a "target 10mm" goes... the EAA Witness Match in 10mm would be my huckleberry... and they're usually less than 1/2 the dough that a Kimber costs.

And what are the operators doing under stress that makes a normally reliable gun malfunction under stress?

Limp wristing? Fumbling reloads?

Interesting observation, and I'd really be interested in the answer..........or is it just cases that the gun(s) are not really reliable in the 1st place?

MM

Kimber is a good gun and very acurate. The early frames and slides were forged by S&W. A friend of mine has one and its a pleasure to shoot, but its no more accurate than my Colt Combat Commander (which is exceptionally accurate).

I looked for a Delta for years, as I had no money when they first came out. Consequently, I bought a Glock 20 in 10mm when I couldn't find one at a reasonable price. But what a great gun the G20 is accurate, reliable and impervious to the weather.

Sorry I got off track there. If it was me I'd buy the Colt if I could find one. I just bought a new combat elite in 45 (great gun too, accurate, reliable and good looking. Its one of my favorites) because a couldn't find a new delta anywhere.

Others may have a different opinion but I think the Colt is a better Gun and thats what I would buy if I wanted a 1911 in 10mm. If I just wanted a good 10mm I would give the Glock 20 serious consideration.

Good luck in you quest, the 10mm is a great round, and unfortunately almost as hard to find as the guns you seek to use it in.

That's a good question... and I don't rightly know the answer. The malfunctions run the gamut... from stovepipes to nose-dives to FTFs. Sometimes they're easy to clear with a little Tap-Rack-Bang... sometimes they're more serious and can cause some FTDRs and DNFs. Like I said... these were all stock pistols. You do see problems with all pistols when the operator varies spring weights and downloads... but I'm certain that was not the case with these particular pistols.

I do know that firing from cover, firing on the move, firing around objects, etc... causes you to pay less attention to how you're holding and managing the pistol. Some of the problem may lie in the .45 ACP caliber... while very potent... and no doubt the best of the auto calibers for smacking bad guys... it's also a lot tougher on the shooter to manage through recoil... no mater what weapon fires it. That can lead to limp-wristing and the consiquences that go with it. I do beilieve you could put the 10mm in this class as well.

I know it's near blasphamy... but this is why I prefer the 9mm in a 'defense' type weapon. They're faster to recover, generally easier to shoot, have MUCH greater capacity, and don't seem as prone to the recoil associted failures that crop up in some of the larger calibers. Go watch a few IDPA matches... and you'll see that the dominating caliber is 9mm... it's just plain easier to shoot quickly and accurately. And, in a situation that calls for pistol fire... I want accurate volume fire... from a pistol that I know will go bang everytime... no matter how I hold it.

I disagree completely. What you need is to hit him right. If a solid hit on the body won't do it, you need to go for a head shot. Sometimes that is the only thing that works.
If nobody could make a truly reliable 1911 for combat use, they would have disappeared long ago. They, of course, have a very solid following by those that have been there. E

Dogshooter,

Thanks for the reply...........more or less what I expected and I'll condense it to a couple of comments:

Sounds like inexperienced shooters not fully prepared

&

Guns not really competition ready & fully prepared & reliable with the ammo being fed them; maybe some issue with handloads, too.

Fair summation?

I've shot competitively in a couple of different formats so can appreciate the issues you bring up, however, 1911's in 45 ACP can definitely be made to be totally reliable with almost any desired ammo.

I know that because I've done it with many different guns of various manufacturers, many different times.

Just as there are a lot of shade tree mechanics out there, there are equally, or more home gunsmiths who don't fully know how to tune a 1911 to the level it's capable of & to the level required to compete with it, & I'll just leave it at that.

I'll also agree with you that a 9mm in a comparable gun is easier for most people to shoot & they can generally become proficient with it faster than a 45.

However, for self defense, I'll take the 1911 in 45 ACP every time...........and all mine will function flawlessly with the ammo designated for use in them.

MM

I have shot and owned the Colt Gold Cup, Model 70 and Model 80 series 1911 pistols for several years. I also own and shoot the model 1911 in Kimber, 45acp caliber. My Kimber's pistols do NOT malfunction in any way shape or form. Competition is just that, competition and I believe there is always stress on the shooter in any event, while competing with a handgun. Some shooters handle this better than others. The one's that handle stress the best are called Pistols Champions!

I do not compete in any competition these because I simply have to many irons in the fire and not enough time to get around to using what I have during the day. Not to mention my eyes are a far cry from being what they were when I was 30 years younger.

Now I can tell you I practice twice a week usually with the wife, only this is not shooting steel plates but self-defense on the street with a handgun, those of us who carry a CCW need all the practice time we can muster up during the week.

I still believe that the Kimber is the top dog in a factory production 1911 45acp caliber. I would put Springfield a close 2nd right with Par-Ordinance. However, my carry gun is a GLOCK 29 10mm, not a pretty handgun but very very RELIABLE!!! It has twice the terminal performance of a 9mm Luger, 357-Sig, 40 Smith & Wesson or the 45acp. You can check out the ballistics on AR 15 Armory.com and see for yourself gentlemen.

Agreed... for an experienced shooter. But for average Joe Handgun... they're tough to get to run right. I'm just calling it as I see it. For me personally, I have no problems running the .45 ACP, and ran a Dan Wesson 1911 once in CDP with only one FTF, and that one was my fault for not fully seating a magazine after a reload... I just find the 9 MUCH faster (to the tune of around 30 seconds on a 7 stage match).

I don't fault the guns fully in this scenario... but rather the "system" of shooter and firearm... and, it's much easier to adjust the firearm than the shooter in most instances.

I see guys who are experienced shooters run 1911s in the CDP class, and they can shoot them fast and accurately... but the times still can't compare to equally experienced shooters running 9mm XD's and Glocks in the ESP and SSP classes.



Agreed... but if you're going to shoot a bad guy in the face... why does it matter what caliber it is? A 9 to the brain will kill just as assuredly as a .45 or 10mm. Furthermore... a solid body hit with any caliber is not an assurance of stopping the fight. We as hunters see stuff get shot solid through the boiler room all the time... with calibers capable of delivering 3-5 times the energy of your average pistol round... and it takes 5-15 seconds for them to expire. In a situation that deems pistol fire appropriate... 15 seconds is an eternity. Several shots to the chest (and dome if appropriate) are always better than one... regardless of caliber, so the quicker you can get that second and third round in there... the better, and this is where the 9mm comes in mighty handy.

I also agree that the 1911, in its original set-up is a very reliable firearm... BUT, when you start racing them up (Kimber, DW, STI, etc.) and shooting ammo other than full-house 230 loads... they can get a little scetchy... that's all. And, you have to agree that for the average guy who buys a handgun and shoots 250 rounds a year... the .45 is a handfull.

I don't know if Eremicus will agree or not, but I will......in fact I'd be surprised if the average Joe Schmoe even shoots that much.

It does take practice and even then, many can't truly master it, or even become proficient enough to be carrying or using a 45 for SD.

(When I was actively competing, 500 rounds or so per week through each of my 2 primary guns was pretty routine.)

Just to further validate your point............

Took a local LEO (been on the force for 9 years) to our range last week & he was shooting his duty gun, a Sig in 45 ACP & his off-duty gun, also a 45, Glock 36.

First of all, he had called the night before and said he didn't have any ammo & he wanted to know if I had any factory or handloads he could buy.......not a good indication of one who shoots regularly.

We were using a 8.5x11" target with a 3" bull.

His shots with both guns were all over or off the target in no real groupings..........all at 25', not 25 yards.

Most would have hit a human silhouette, but I guess I expect more out of a professional; doesn't give much inspiration to the average Joe Schmoe when shooting next to him. IMO, he would have benefited from a smaller caliber pistol, at least from the accuracy standpoint.

He said they were only required to shoot & qualify twice per year..........

MM

Oh so true... so very true.

At our last IDPA match there were 9 LEOs who participated... all were no better than average... most below average. IDPA is the exact kind of shooting you'd expect an officer to want to be proficient in... shooting from cover, reloading from cover, shooting on the move, shooting from inside a vehicle, shooting with your weak hand only, etc. But, they just don't seem to grasp the concepts... and the level of accuracy is terrible.

Sorry for hi-jacking... so, back to the point of the post. I think the 10mm is the king kahuna of handgun rounds... if you can handle it. It's akin to the .300 RUM... a ton of performance... but it takes a skilled guy to shoot it. I prefer the CZ style guns over the 1911... after all... that's what the original 10mm was... the Bren-Ten. Either would work well... but don't expect a bad guy to dig his own grave just because it's a 10mm instead of a 9mm, or .45, or .357... hit'em well... multiple times, just like in big game hunting... caliber is often down on the list of important stuff that ends the fight.

The idea that several body hits are going to make a hopped up Bad Guy expire/stop fighting all that much faster simply isn't what has been found to be true. If one or two solid body hits don't do it, you are wasting your ammo on him to shoot him there with more. That's what field experience has taught.
What's worse is it tends to encourage a Good Guy to empty his gun in an attempt to stop the Bad Guy. When that happens, and the BG is still in bussiness, the GG is in real trouble. Second significant factor that looses gun fights.
You can argue that "it makes no difference if you use a 9mm or a .45, if you are going to shoot him in the head anyway ..." But, again, a little reality comes in here too. Shooting some BG in th head is much tougher to do than tagging him in the torso. Much smaller target that moves alot more to boot. E

OR:



Which one is it? Reality... or Reality

You're the one that started with the head shots... not me.

Fact is... unless it's a hit to the CNS... ya ain't stoppin' anything with a handgun round. Well aimed shots are just that... well aimed... they take care of themselves. The notion that a "hopped up bad guy" can take several hits from a 9mm... but will fall over dead at the sound of the saftey clicking off your 1911 is eroneos as well... hits to the CNS end schitt now... hits elswhere... and you're rolling the dice. There's also something to be said for capacity... I can run off ten well aimed rounds with the 9mm... and still have more rounds left than a 1911 with a full mag and one in the pipe. I don't know about you... but I see a lot of advantage to that.

You ain't stopping anything or anyone with a handgun round unless it's a head shot ? I've seen lots of BG's stopped with less than a head shot.
Sometimes it works. Sometimes you have to go for a head shot because a body hit doesn't. It's a mistake to just keep pumping lead into them when they don't respond to a body hit.
BTW, one of the things you learn from such things is that gun, no matter how many rds. it holds, goes dry alot faster than you'd ever think. E