Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Hunting Rifles 338 Federal & a 338/06 - Too much overlap?

Dennis, I was gonna say after your last post, yep, very close the RCM and '06, based on speeds I have seen posted. My '06 w/4320--GO TO powder did 2790 w/215, Hart 23". MANY 338 fans look no further than the 210PT, myself, I opted to select the 15 gr. heavier bullet for a few more lbs of energy and better S.D. with only 1-2" more drop at 400 yds. 2670 not too bad, and there are those who like 250s, slow out the bbl but they keep moving like a freight train.

Dan, if Kimber (or Sako) made a 338/06 I'd be getting a loan, as it stands, I am still debating a Sako or Montana in the F round.

What were your take aways with the 338F? Did it meet your expectations? Limited to a few powders to achieve desired speeds? I don't believe the rumors factory ammo cannot be matched, though I am sure like all rounds there are a few that outperform most others.

Last fall I shot a nice 4x3 muley in Montana with the 185 gr TSX out of my .338 Fed, at about 200-225 yards. It fell over dead and stayed dead in the same spot, so I'm fairly sure it worked .

For all practical purposes, I do think the .338 RCM and .338-'06 are equivalent short action/long action cartridges. The RCM may get 100 fps or so more velocity with equal barrel lengths, but that's really not enough to get concerned about.

Given my 18.5" barrel on my .338 Fed, I'm having no trouble matching factory bullet velocities. I've fired the Federal 185 gr TSX and 200 gr Fusion rounds in it over my chronograph, and have no trouble slightly exceeding them with no indication of pressure issues.

The reason I made the crack about the 210 gr TSX's is that I just don't like Partitions, but that has nothing with their validity as a good bullet choice. I don't like Dodges either, but that doesn't make them "bad" trucks -- just ones I won't buy. Kinda like belted magnums... .

Dennis

Yes indeed, the RCM is doing it in a shorter package. I'd bet a 350 RM would too, but it might lose a tad more sizzle downrange with those fatter slugs, but they do cut nice fat holes.

Thanks Dennis, I hear you, my first rifle was a 7mag, didn't know better, it was/is a great round, but I love to shoot, and it would not allow me to do enough of it! God that thing spat 115s at 3375 with lazer like trajectory, but the bark and bite on my end were still unpleasant, dropped her down a bit to 3k and still turned a yote upside down....or inside out

I prefer unbelted rounds for most uses, but the 350 RM I have no issue with but you can't put as many in the mag well, and when you have a 'magazine' rifle as Rigby called them, it seems natural to fill it up! Hence another reason I liked the 338/06.

Anyway, I got off the phone with my cousin in Gustavus a couple of hours ago. Caught Kings, Halibut, recently and crabs, he lives 2 miles from the bay literally. Moose season is down to 2-3 days he said, but they fill their tags of 50 for the area typically in one day! He said it's a miserable sunny day in the 80s.....sorry to hear!

I am hoping to do some fishing, but the Moose tags, I believe he only gets 3 per his family......will see if that ever yields me an opportunity..

Hope all is well. Btw, is your F the rebored/bbl Ruger RSI I seen pics somewhere on the fire?

My take aways...

The 200 Fusion load is a screamer. it'll do 2600 and small change out of a 22" tube, and at 25 bucks a box its the cheapest load to shoot for brass. The factory 210 PT load only steps at 2490's as did my reloads (at least the ones that didn't loosen primer pockets after a couple loadings)

You can run 180 NABs at a legit 2700 FPS, but neither one of the 338 Federals I had much liked that pill.

TAC ain't the magic pixie dust that its cracked up to be. One gun ran substantially slow with that powder and the other flattened primers and made for a very sticky bolt lift once it was loaded with enough TAC to shove a 200 Hornady 2550 FPS.

RL15 and H4895 are your huckleberries with the 200's, and Benchmark can shove the 180s spooky fast if you use Hodgdons data. Both my 338 Federals (one was a Tikka T3, and the other a Kimber Montana) loved 200 grain Hot-Cors over 46 grains of Swedish made RL15, lit off by a Federal 210 and an OAL around 2.800". I substituted 210 Partitions for Montana's General Season. Both loads shot into 1/2" vertical of each-other at 100 and right around 2500 FPS

Necked up WW 308 brass is a lot thinner in the case head, and the necks thin out to around .012-.013" It don't last that long... You can get away with stuffing about a half grain more powder in it though and milking it for another 50 FPS if you're so inclined. Military 308 brass (I used LC-05) necked up very closely duplicates FC 338Fed cases in neck thickness and head design, backing off the said loads 1/2 grain gave similar velocities and I would assume pressures... It'd last about 7-8 firings before you'd start to see case head seperations (which is pretty typical in a 308 if you don't neck it up...) The WW brass I necked up only lasted 4-5 firings and the necks would split (and I was barely working them with a TiN coated bushing in a Redding type S die)

So yeah... What I said in the other post on this thread... In the real world its a 300 yard Mini Sledge on critters up to Elk. And with the 180 NABs its a 30-06 with 03-A3 50,000 CUP 180 factory loads (as long as we're talking about 180's with a BC under .400)



In the end though, I already had a Montana in 308 that was a lot cheaper to feed (and can run a 180 Partition at 2600 and change if I need it too.) And I really wanted another 260

I know I don't have to explain to you why I like 6.5's

I'm sure it is -- I've put lots of pics of it up over the couple of years I've had it. It's rebarreled with a Pac-Nor barrel, though -- I wanted it rebored, but the gunsmith measured it and said that a .500 barrel was too small to rebore to .338. Not to hard for me to buy into.

Here's a look...



I like it a lot.

Dennis

Beauty is in that the form follows function in a round with an expansion ratio to be effective and efficient, something a 338F can do in that 18.5" bbl.

Chris ie Pac-Nor barreled several for me in the past, stellar results. Good folks to deal with, my last was a Ruger, albeit a 6mmBR, on a #1 yet!

To say that 3 groove was a shooter, well, one morning at the range, around 8am, nobody but me, quiet, calm, no mirage, I shot 3 shots and it looked like one hole thru my 4200 4-16x, at 330 yds! Walked down and could not believe, .498 c-t-c. I was very pleased. Had to rib a local guy who thinks his bolts are the only rifles that would shoot and I noticed some of his targets. I just had to write down on that target, RUGER #1, as my group was smaller! That was a good feeling. Oh, Kepplinger trigger helped mind you. The only gun I ever had that was not floated. Chris had a guy 'Ernie' IIRC, who had built a 308 just like mine previously, and did the work on mine, after he suggested glassing the stock full length since that 308 had shot like 1.5" at 500 meters (I know, I found it hard to believe then too, not so much after my <.2moa group), I said, go for it. It worked obviously very well in my case. I realize one group does not make an average, but Pac-Nor delivered.

Is yours the old Tang safety? Handle is blue, and maybe you had the bolt body blued? Hard to tell in the photo. That rifle in 250-3000 always had my interest, rarely seen.

Da.n Dan, that's more than I was hoping for and great conscise yet packed write up. I am nominating you to be a writer if you are not being paid for it!

Well for a fellow wanting to use a 338F, would he be as well off then to grab a box of 200 Fusions or two, sight in and hunt and be happy? Serious question, also what about any experience in 185's? Any chance those Fusions are simply Hot Cores? If so, perhaps I am behind on reading or it's not touted. Thanks much.

Nope...it's a Mark II. I bought a .308 tang-safety RSI with the intent of reboring it to .338 Fed, but of course I took it out and shot it... . Then I had to buy another one to make a .338 Fed .

But I like them both...

Dennis

Well, the T3 pretty much got "donated" to my favorite charity.... My Broke-Ass-Brother. He's planning on stacking up the critters with it and the Fusion load.

The Fusion bullet looked nothing like a Hot-Cor (and if their hype is true its in a manufacturing group all its own,) and I had the two side by side more than once. The fusion bullet would probably work really well at 338 Fed speeds (its supposed to be fairly soft) Other 338 pills are probably a little stout for the Federal. Which is part of how I decided on keeping shots inside 300 yards. Its not really a secret that most bullets need to be going 1900-2000 FPS at LEAST to make any kind of a mushroom. When you're starting them out between 2500-2700 FPS with BCs around .400, 300 yards is about it.

My wife and brother both conviced deer to live in the freezer inside 150 yards last year. At that range it pretty well flattens them with a low amount of drama and very little bloodshot meat.




Dennis, Its a toss-up between that RSI and your 6.5 Kurz as to which is the sexier rifle That RSI is a classy gun for sure...

6.5 Kurz? Show it! Want to hear more on that one. Is that round one by another name i.e. 52 or 54? I need to learn more on the history obviously on the various 6.5s across the pond.

Dennis, I thought most of the newer Rugers had SS handles, but perhaps not, but I like both versions, my preference is slightly to the tang for location/convenience though the 3 pos. saftey works fine as on my 77/22.

Dan, yes, agreed on your thoughts. I think the 200 Hornady would be a good bullet at it's speed, and possibly the 215. The 215 would separate from cup/core at the backstop from my former 338/06 at 200 yds, 225 Hornady's better, very good actually.

I am sure emotion sells more guns, but reality is I think the bulk of game is taken this side of 300 yds, and I try working in that myself for many reasons. Anything under 50 yds is icing on the cake, my heart gets to racing when I am close to animals vs. simply sniping them, though I don't mind taking them out aways if that's how they prefer to present before they turn into steaks!

The 6.5x54 Kurz is the top one in the pic. (The bottom one is my 9.3x57 Husqvarna.)



My Ruger was coated with one of the steel-protectors by the gunsmith, so the once-silver steel bolt is no longer shiny.

My plan for hunting in Montana, Idaho and South Dakota includes bringing both the .338 Fed and the 6.5x54 Kurz . Plus some other rifles and a shotgun.

Dennis

What are your thoughts on a 338-06 with 20" barrel. I came across a deal on a 338-06 a few months ago that was too good to pass up. Interarms action, 24" Shilen barrel in a McMillin stock. I don't need the rifle, but I do like it. Now I'm trying to figure out what to use it for.

Living in Georgia the biggest thing I am liklely to shoot here is a 400-500lb black bear. Someday I may get the chance to hunt larger game, at longer ranges, but have several 30-06 rifles and a 280 for longer range work. I've considered having the barrel cut to 20" and using it for short range brush hunting much like the 338 RCM.

I wish the .338 RCM had been built with a 21" barrel, because the 20" seems a bit short to me. But that's mostly just my personal perception. Given that it has nearly the same case capacity, I think the .338-'06 could be run at essentially the same velocity as the .338 RCM with a 20-21" barrel -- with the right powder.

Dennis

I think the logical step for a .338 is the .338 Winchester Magnum. The .338 Federal & the .338-06 aren't really any better than the .30-06 IMO.

Surely YOU mean the 338 Rem UM, right?

If that's what you think, it's all the reason anyone needs to recognize that the .338 Fed, .338-06 and .338 RCM have good features and appear in dandy rifles...

Dennis

I think the Rem UM may be a little too much of a good thing. I think I'd make the jump to the .375H&H if I felt I needed more than the .338 Winchester could muster. In fact I'm not that crazy about most of the cartridges between the .30-06 & the .375H&H.

I'm not so sure the Remington UMs will survive.

JMR, mine was 23", I cut a 24" Win Mag to 22.5 and loved it's handling, hated it's recoil, and I never could shoot it as well. I think a 22" is perfect and would not mind a 21", 20" just keep bringing the muzzle closer to your ears even though the vel. drop is not that great in a round of this capacity and expansion ratio.

Dennis, I like those rifles, they look well balanced. I bet they both are good shooters and mild mannered. You will do well I am sure. Is the 'Kurt' to id the action, or is that round different than the 54 M-S? Thanks for posting photos.

If I had been building the rifle I probably would have gone 22". The 24" barrel just seems a little long for the uses I have in mind. Figured if I was going to have it cut I might as well go more than 2" and try to replicate the Ruger Alaskan with a 20" barrel. Had not thought about 21", seems like a good compromise. Or, just leave it as is and get used to it.

6.5x54 Kurz is a German-developed round, very different from the 6.5x54 Mannlicher-Schoenauer. One thing I like about it is that it's essentially a shortened 6.5x57. The rifling in the barrels is twisted for 120-130 grain bullets, rather than twisted for the 156-160 gr bullets like all the other European 6.5's. I'm shooting 120 gr Speers at 2600 fps, which is pretty much a duplicate of what the German factories produced in the 1920-1930's. The company that produced my rifle was based in what became East Germany after WWII, so they moved to West Germany during the border-adjusting period and reopened there. They then renamed the factory after their family -- it's now called Anschutz.

I like it quite a lot...

Dennis