Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Elk Hunting Buddies got back from unit 15, NM, and had a hunt from hell....

Listened to a elk hunting friend last year (not these guys) who saw a guy screw up their hunt by riding his ATV into their area in a similar manner. This was in a wilderness area, no ATV's allowed. He was, as these guys were doing, scouting for an upcoming hunt and messed the guy up. They waited until he got off the ATV and headed off scouting...and then unloaded on it with their rifles, rendering it a pile of scrap metal.

While I don't agree with it for all the obvious reasons, not to mention there is now a 500 pound chunk of scrap metal in the wilderness...I suppose it got the intended result.

110% true story. I'll save the readers the need to respond and say it myself: Stupid idea, and a damn good way to get your own head blown off.

You know, unit 34 is impacted by ATVs and auto's all over the place. But there is alot of very secluded areas where elk hole up or the flip side is them being in national forest land next to subdivisions. My wife, I and son have stumble into Herds of elk (including enormous bulls and lots of them) just by walking a mile off the beaten path. They were where you would never expect them, yet I think the elk are adapting in sort of a Sun Tzu sort of way. Kind of like keeping your enemies closer, type of deal. We know where they are at, we just cannot get a tag for them. But rough 5,000' low country is where they are hiding. Forget the tall timber.

Man, this really gets under my skin. A good way to get rid of unreputable outfitters, and unethical hunters, is to make ALL mature bull tags resident-only. In new mexico, especially, you'll see the demand for USO's services drop dramatically. Not too many non-residents will be booking for a cow or spike tag. Those who do, you can be assured, will be doing it for the love of the hunt and the animal. I grew up there, loved bowhunting OTC in the early 80's near our home and loved the purity of it all. Enter landowner tags, and the whole market it created: One made worse by TV shows showcasing the "massive" bulls these outfits can put you on. As I just stated in another thread, guides should only be used by the disabled!

Hunted 6c NM a few years back (easy unit to draw). 2 encounters. First one, I was hunting my way along a trail, no signs of man, but some not so old Elk sign. Working my way down a drainage that traveled much fartehr than I was gonna go that day. Made it just about to the point where I was gonna turn and head back, and I hear a dirtbike. Not an ATV, A DIRTBIKE, and it's getting closer. Closer! So I step out of the trail, and find a little cover (not too hard to do). About the time I settle in, here comes Mr. Cross Country Rider hauling butt up the drainage. This in a unit where motorized traffic is limited to within 50' of a roadway. We were miles off the road (he and I).


My bil was hunting a saddle area where Elk were known to move. He heard an atv coming. He backs up against a tree and stands there. This idiot on the ATV pulls up within 50' of him, jumps off, looks around, unzips and takes a whiz. My bil said he could have.......Well you know what he wanted to do. This idiot zips back up, jumps on his atv and heads right back in the diirection he came from..

We reported both instances to the Ranger that evening at camp. That fella's atv was on the trailer for the rest of the hunt. The ranger said the fella on the dirtbike was most likely a Los Almamos Employee out for a day long ride. Nothing much he could do about that unless he caught him in the act.

I asked the ranger what the fine was if he caught someone off the road? $50 he said. WHHAATT! Make it more like $5000 and I bet that kind of thing would slow down a lot! He agreed, but what can he do?

This year, we're hunting a non-mechanized area. Not even a game cart is allowed.


Jay

That's the craziest thing I've ever heard! Non-residents only get 22% of the tags total and DIYers only get 10%.

Yep, it'd be easier to just outlaw any motor vehicle, that isn't registered for on road use, to be used while elk hunting.

Any unit with easy access and alot of roads is going to have alot of ATV. traffic. I don't have a problem with them if they are on a legal road, I have heard alot of people talking about problems with ATV. but I personally have never had any problems with them.(mostly because of where I hunt) The problem with USO. is another story, last year 2 USO. guides and I had a little bit of a run-in during a MZ. hunt, they thought I should re-think my hunt due to the high paying out of state hunter. The NMDGF. needs to stop giving ALL unit wide tags and issue only RO. tags. Too many land owners keep acces closed to federal lands even though there tags are unit wide in hopes hunters will not do there homework and the person buying the UW. tag will have thousands of acres to them selfes. Elk in NM has become all about the money.

Crazy? Sure is. So is discriminating against DIYers, as the current quotas currently do. 22% is, IMHO, a VERY generous allocation. Get rid of the rez/non rez quota altogether on the cow/immature hunts, add a bonus point system if you want. The point about the mature bull hunt is to discourage all of that unethical BS that is, quite frankly, usually driven by antler lust. I've seen it here in NM and AZ. Potential for big bulls = potential big $$$ for outfitters like those described on this thread.

"The NMDGF. needs to stop giving ALL unit wide tags and issue only RO. tags. Too many land owners keep acces closed to federal lands even though there tags are unit wide in hopes hunters will not do there homework and the person buying the UW. tag will have thousands of acres to them selfes. Elk in NM has become all about "


AMEN BROTHER!!!!! I have been raising hell since I moved here from AZ 7-years ago! The idiot slobs who shoot game because it's on their land and they are mad G&F didn't give them 50-tags as well!

Quads are fine as long as they stay on the road at all times. Never going to happen!

did they see any wolves?

requires a little walking...err. hunting?

Depends on what unit. There's public land in NM that 4wheelers can't access. I hunted one of them two years ago, didn't see another hunter, and killed a dandy bull. The catch is that its hard to draw these areas.

Yep BX...I plan on putting in for the Valle each year as soon as our son has graduated from college (next year) and can get some days off if lightening strikes and we are drawn.

Road access and four wheeler traffic is the problem in Units 15, 16A and 16D. A friend just got back from a hunt in 16A and had similar problems. Of course his hunting party was running around on four wheelers too. There are too many roads in the Gila and short of shuting all but the main ones down the only way to get away will be to hunt the wilderness area. That being said, I have a 16A cow hunt in December. We'll see what is like then.

Godog57,
I am saddend that your friends hunt was one truely from hell.
I had a similar trip in WY in 08, but not quite as bad. Our biggest problem was residents on quads and 4x4s with cow elk tags. After that hunt I vowed to never hunt a well roaded unit again, and be quite leary of ones that allow quads as any unit that does allow quads, riders will be every where the terain will allow them as they know there are simply to few DNR cops to keep them in line, or in the case of BLM land no rules other than common curtacy. I have had both quads and trucks [bleep] up my elk hunting every single time I have gone, but this last trip was almost more than I could stand. I was in what was listed as a limmited entry bull elk unit with draw odds of less than 1/33, but it might as well have been in a OTC unit in Colorado with all the quads and trucks all over the unit. It was the last thing I expected to happen in a unit that was so hard to draw. But what p!sses me off the most is I blew all my BPs drawing the unit and that realy puts me in the hole now.

AS far as USO out fitters go, I have first hand experience with them while in unit 34 NM and I can tell you USO will do anything and I do mean anything it takes to kill a bull elk and the rules, hunter ethics and consideration to other hunter can go stait to hell. I could not blame anyone who left USO out fitters a "unexpected surprise" if they happend accross a vehicle or quad they were using and no one from USO was around. Im not saying I would do anyhting, but I would not think it all that bad if it did happen. I know two wrongs a rite does not make, but NRs like me often wait years to draw a good tag and have combined between tag cost and time off alone several $1000 dollars invested in a elk hunt only to have some inconsiderate slob SOB screw it up for us. My last elk hunt cost me over $6,000 net in lost wages alone, as I was at that time on a big over time job working 60hrs a week. So I can understand how some guy who has a horay for me and [bleep] you atitiude, who just knowingly broke the law and screwed up some ones hunt by riding his quad in a area off limits because he heard a bull bugle could come back to a quad rendered useless by a pissed off hunter. Not sa saying its rite, but understandable.

I have been saying for years the biggest single threat to our hunting comes from other hunters and greed within our ranks not the likes of PETA.

And as far as only allowing resident hunters on federaly owned (read that all Americans not only that states residents owned) land, Im all for that just as soon as any state that wants it that way pays back all the federal tax money it has received and used for used land management/improvements, game management/improvements and all the money it has received for past NR tags which BTW makes up a large if not huge part of most states WL budgets. You guys already get any where from 75% to 88% of the bull tags as it is, what the hell rite do you have saying I can not hunt on land owned by all tax payors?
And dont even think about handing me that old stand by BS line that I can do anything else I want to on federal land but hunt because your states G&F dept manages the heard when you would not have any where near the $$$ to do so without the $$$ you get from NR tags. Not to mention combined the litterally 10s of millions of dollars non-res hunters spend in your states EVERY SINGLE YEAR. And if anyone thinks that its nonresidents who are responcible for most screwed up hunts, sorry resident hunters the math simply does not bear this out as residents typically make up 75-80% of the hunters in any limited entry elk unit and then add number of non hunting friends of family that go with a resident tag owner and the number of res VS nonres is almost 5 or 6 to 1 so if your hunt was srewed up by the actions of another hunter it is a almost 95% likely hood it was done by one of your fellow residents. I also after six elk trips out west have NEVER EVER encountered but a slight (way less than 10%) few resident hunters who was not on a quad, the very few non-res hunters I ever encountered, like me who were not.

Do I think quads should be outlawed compleatly? No, as I would like to someday use one myself, but what other options besides a total ban have we when so few quad riders abide by the rules in areas that they know have rules strictly limiting there use? It is truely shamefull when we as hunters can not conduct our selves by even the most basic rules of a code of conduct towards fellow hunters and that is when the government winds up stepping in and then no one winds up happy with the results.

There should not be any such thing as a non-resident hunter on federaly owned land. I am all for residents only on any land which is purely 100% owned by the state and paid for by 100% resident tag revinue. This should also apply for private land as well.

I have no problem paying more and often much more to hunt as a non resident in states besides my own on federaly owned land, and even though I feel I should be able to compete on a even basis for tags on federal land, I am willing to accept the bulk of tags for animals on federal land going to the residents of the state, I just wish it was more of a fair split in the good units.

No matter what your point of view is the vast majority of state G&f Depts manage the animals for maximum revinue to them not for the benafit of the hunters buying the tags that keep them employed.

Its especially weird as a statement about keeping all tags resident, that a LOT of the problems are not non resident, but residents riding around. NR, at least us, lots of time tend to try to put more work and effort into it due to time, vacation, travel, costs etc... vs teh weekend warriors that can run out, ride around and maybe shoot something.


Bottom line on a bad hunt, no one can control stupidity, and in 34 or 36, can't recall which, that include idiots bugling from ATVs etc...

Yet you have to work harder and smarter than the rest, thats why the success rates are low. We've been guilty of coming in a few days before and setting up camp where elk were, at the end of a road, NOT knowing someone else was waiting them and patterning.... I felt REALLY bad... Yet that fellow knew we screwed that and packed his gear and moved on, and found elk a few miles away to make up for our FU...

I came away pissed the other year from a cattle round up. As pissed as I was, I simply have altered my game plans a bit more now, and will be ATV mobile to areas, walk in a mile or more and look. No game, pack it up and move on. Only to set up the tent once we find where the elk are at that time.

Wow. Sorry I offended you, but your logic is precisely the argument that USO Outfitters used to sue AZ and NV about 5 years ago in order to up the non-rez quota. Why, you might ask? To placate its typical client: The one I've learned to abhor every bit as much as the outfitters themselves. I've seen what's happened to the Gila over the last 30 years. It's trashed. Absolutely trashed with 2-rut tracks. Why do you think I pick on non-residents? My perspective is MUCH different than yours. Anyone I've ever had a run-in with happened to have an out-of-state plate on their equipment (usually from that big state just to our East), and they're usually tagging along with one of a number of local outfitters. We've all got our pet-peeves, I guess, and I do agree with you that our fellow hunters pose more of a threat to our lifestyle than PETA ever will...Then again, I also have a strong opinion about rifle hunters ...fire away!

IntruderBN,
Correct me if I'm wrong but IIRC USO's argument was not based on so much on the leagle issue of nonresident No#s VS resident No#s hunting on federal land it was based on the state sevearly limiting the No#s of nonresident tags and in doing so interfeared with lawful commerce of doing bieusness in the outfitting industry USO is in and not purely the right of hunting oportunity of the indavidual resident hunter VS non resident perse. In short USO said again IIRC, the state strictly limiting the numbers of nonresident permits to hunt on land owned by all Amricans unlawfully incurred USO to suffer a significant loss in money as it restricted otherwise lawfull commerce and not just the law unlawfully restricted hunting oportunities to the average nonreident hunter.

And as I said I dont think the fact that in states like AZ, UT, NM, and NV which most of the best hunting land is on public land and at least 75% of all tags by state law must go to residents is at all fair, but I can live with it. I would be much more willing to live with a slight increase to say 70/30 split, or on years that showed a significant increese in numbers of animals issue that number to nonresidents, that I could live with. I just find it some what arrogant when the resident of ANY state to presume they have any more rites than I to hunt the animals on federaly owned land just because it happens to be with in the borders of their state. You DO HAVE EVERY right to do so on privately owned land in your state, just IMHO not publicly owned land.

I know this subject has been beaten to death at websites like monster Mulies so lets not get started here. I guess we will just have to agree to disagree.


Also keep this in mind IntruderBN, if indeed your wish came true and states such as yours banned all nonresident hunters that would represent a extreamly large net loss of revinew for you state DNR, most likely in the millions of dollars. Now where exactly do you thing the state DNR is going to go to get the funds to offset such a huge (I'm guessing here but it would be something like 20-30%) drop in funds? If you guessed you the resident hunter, you are right.

The DNR in your state would have absolutely no choice but increase the cost of your tages how ever much nessasary to make up for the now millions of dollars they are short deu the loss of revinue by the elimination of non-resident tags and stamps. I think a doubling of resident tag costs would not be out of the question as well as increases in other areas related to land use for hunting.

The only other alternative would be a drastic reduction of services or programs provided by your states DNR including programs that promote the growth and health of all the wild animals in your state.

Sorry if I come off a little strong in my first post, Im a little touchy on the resident VS nonresident when it comes to hunting on land we both have equal rite to be on.

No problem Art, and we're all entitled to different opinions. You might be surprised to know that I, too, am a non-resident applicant in NM. I'm now in AZ.

That cool IntruderBN,
But your one up on me with a huge advantage. I love to hunt elk more than anything else except white tails, and in the two states I hunt and the one of which I live there are exactly zero elk for me to chase. Make that two up on me, as my favorite deer state of IL allows as meny nonresident gun hunters as the permit No#s will bear. The IL DNR loves the $$$ they get from all the nonresidents (its in the tens of thousands) who pay almost $300 to deer hunt in IL and as a holder of a life time hunting liceince I only pay $15 for a eithor sex permit and $30 for a permit that allows me to take one each buck or doe.

I only now put in for one spacific unit for elk in NM. While I was in unit 34 the very first year it was open for ML elk, I learned just how hard it is to kill a bull in only five days of hunting. I did though, see some extreamly nice bulls. I thankfully I ended up taking a nice 4x4 on the evining of my third day.

Unit 34 at least the part I was in was extreamly lean in good glassing points. And it was over grown with scrub oak trees that made spotting elk realy, realy hard. I am a strong beliver I should ahve spent more time in the north west part of the unit as it had a whole lot less roads and hunters and quads, this was on the advice of a realy nice guy who was a biologist for the unit.