Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Hunting Rifles What Happened To Lazzeroni's Magnums?

Have not heard much about em anymore? Did the RUMs, SAUMs & WSMs take away their spotlight? (not that they had any) Anyone considering one?

MtnHtr

Thats a good question. I to have not heard anything about them in a long time. Must have lost some momentum with the nembies come on board <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

When Sako started chambering the 7.82 Warbird in the TRG-S I knew that was the rifle for me, but couldn't find one in Alaska, so I bought the next best thing a Remington 300 Ultra Mag, dumped a couple real nice bull moose and a bunch of Sitka Blacktails in Kodiak, the Rum worked just fine but I dreamed of the Warbird and 3500 FPS with 180's.

By chance I ran into Ken (from Wild West Guns) in Anchorage, Alaska. He announced that they were official distributors of Sako Warbirds and Lazzeroni ammo, brass and dies, my 300 Rum was quickly replaced and a good number of Alaska game was taken over the years with the Warbird using 180 grn. Swift A-Frames @ 3470 fps.

Lately I've been playing around with the Accubonds and have reached the goal of 3520 FPS with 180's and less than 1/2 MOA @ 100 yards, I've got the 200 grn. Accubonds speeding slightly over 3300 FPS with similar accuracy. I'll be using the Warbird and the 200's on sheep and all other game this fall.

The problem with the Lazzeroni's is a lot of folks never give them a chance and dump on 'em without ever shooting them or much less ever holding a round in their grubby paws.

My brother bought one also after witnessing the phenomenal accuracy and velocity that the Sako Warbird was capable of,
between the two rifles we've shot far more 1/2 MOA (and less) groups compared to all our other rifles over many years of reloading and shooting, most people I know are avid hunters and shooters who still cannot shoot a single 1/2 MOA group in a lifetime of shooting with a variety of rifles and calibers.

People fret about the "monstrous" recoil the Warbird generates! Huh ?? What recoil!! My little brother is 24 yrs. old weight a few ozs. over 100 lbs., 5 ft. 0 inches "short" ( brain tumor as a child stunted his growth)he routinely dumps bull moose and blacktail deer out past 400 yards every year, before the Warbird he hunted with an 8mm Mag beginning in his early teens. (As have I)
I still cannot understand what all this "recoil" garbage is, Constantly spewed all over the hunting forums with some guys claiming that a 7mm Mag is a real kicker. I've been loading my Dads, other brother and friends 7mm's for many years working up loads based on high velocity and best accuracy with premium bullets, I still have yet to feel any kick from the 7's..

Okay, okay back to the topic of Lazzeroni stuff,

Brass and ammo is extremely expensive compared to the "junk" floating around (WSM's, SAUM's).

That's cool with me, 'cause I prefer to be one of the few who
packs a round totally different from the other hunters in the field or at the shooting range.

Word is John Lazzeroni is developing an all new and faster 30 Cal. round, guess I'll be upgrading soon as it's available.

Oh yeah!, one more thing....
If anyone is considering the Warbird, get it now.... the accuracy and velocity will simply astound you, you'll never go back to those miniature 30 Cals. again. I know I won't trade my Ferrari in for a Yugo..

They must be alive and well.........I mean heck, it sounds like he sold both of 'em.

JimF

It would be interesting to find out more about them such as actual chrongraphed velocities and actual pressures along with any other information.

I am not considering a Lazzeoni at all but to improve things velocity increases are very good way to do it.

From proman1...


A 7mm Mag pushing a 160g bullet to around 3000fps will generate recoil in the region of 22-25 foot-pounds, depending on the weight of the rifle and scope and the specific powder charge. Hardly a big deal to me, considering one of my .45-70 loads generates 48 foot-pounds, but considerably more than a .30-30, 6mm's, most .25's or even 6.5's and most .270 loads. Since most hunters really don't need something a heavy recoiling cartridge, recoil is a legitimate issue. Last January I picked up a nice .257 Roberts and one of the things that impressed me was the seriousness of the cartridge and the lack of recoil - a real joy to shoot. Your 180g bullet at 3500fps will generate around 36-38 foot-pounds.



Junk? I'm not a fan of the WSM's or SAUM's, but they are hardly "junk". Indeed, the WSM's seem to be excellent cartridges. Will either of the two do shat a Lazzeroni does? No. Does that make them "junk"? No.

You probably have a similar opinion of the RUM's but, as for me, I'd take a RUM any day over a Lazzeroni.





You go right ahead and stick with the Lazzeroni creations, and welcome to them. Most other people will correctly come to the conclusion that for 99.99% of shots taken, a .30-06 is perfectly adequate and the WSM's, Win Mags, and RUM's of the world even more. Acordingly, they will choose to forego the additional recoil and expense and probable shorter barrel life of the Lazzeroni.

If shooting heavy recoil cartridges was the measure of a man, I'd get my Remington M700ML muzzlestuffer and start loading it up with 500g bullets and a handful of powder. But recoil tolerance doesn't make the man, character does.

All my shots go through the chronograph and I keep all the targets with the ballistic and reload data together, pretty much keep a good record of all reloads for all my guns.

What I meant by "junk" is that there is zero improvements with the WSM and SAUM cartridges over the 300 Win, 7mm Mag and 270 Win, they ""might"" go a bit faster but not enough to get all excited about, besides you can load the older ones faster with heavier bullets, at least with the 300 Win and 7mm Mag. The shorter action length doesn't make it better.

I do like the 300 RUM though, at least it shows some improvements over the previous 30 cals..
I still have my 300 Rum, but I've had it rebarreled with a 30 inch Hart #7 Varmint bbl and chambered for the 300 Accuracy Arms, ( very similar to the 300 Tomahawk, based on the Rum case "improved)

Performance wise it is nearly identical to the 7.82 Warbird (due to the long bbl) but is a degree more accurate, groups range in 1/4" Moa consistently with 178 grn. Hornady A-Max bullets,
I do not hunt with it , it's my fun gun strictly for long range target shooting.

It seems every time recoil comes into question some folks immediately point out those silly cliche's like ..."recoil tolerance doesn't make a man, character does" among others along the same lines.

I've never made any claims that my magnum tastes somehow elevate me to a higher status among men, to do so is stupid and doesn't prove anything, only shows that those who do feel "more of a man" 'cause they shoot a bigger cartridge, are screwed up in the head same as the guys that drive the big Dodge Rams and act as if they walk on air,(nothing wrong with the truck though).

I shoot what I like, same as anybody else..............

By proman1:


Yup, and that's fine. But you also took it on yourself to belittle other people and their choices.

These were your words, not mine:
"grubby paws"
"recoil garbage"
"spewed"
"junk"
"miniature 30 cals"
"Yugo"


Seems to me your post would have been a lot better without the disrespect.

PMan,

Do you really have a high powered rifle that shoots 1/4 inch groups? I believe a .30 caliber bullet is bigger than the group you mentioned(unless all the rounds are through the same hole- and then that hole is STILL bigger than 1/4 inch).

I enjoyed your passion, but let's be truthful here. It's like saying I shot a 1/4 group with my .45-70.

I doesn't mater the dia of bullet - when you measure the group - you find the largest spread and subtract your bullet dia to give group size. (thats the standard way I was taught anyway)

Thats how a 6 PPC can shoot a .125 group. As to the ability of the rifle - I don't know just clearing up how it is possible for a 30 or even a 458 cal rifle to shoot a group smaller than bullet diameter.

Teal,

You are right, of course. Instead of being sarcastic, I should be asking what his bench shooting set up is to get 1/4 inch groups with a hunting rifle.

Of course, once I shot one such group, anytime I did not would probably drive me crazy.

The bulk of Lazzaroni's market was already taken up by Weatherby, as well as the newer RUM's. People complain about the cost of Weatherby ammo, but the Lazzaroni stuff is extremely expensive, and brass very difficult to obtain. Also loading dies. When all is said and done, Lazzaroni just isn't worth the hassle and expense. The gain is total diminishining returns. Too much so. Their great rounds, and perform well, but way too costly. Kind of an oddity. I've never seen a box of ammo or brass, let alone a rifle in any shop here in Arizona, and here is where their made. Bill T.

Cabela's in Hamburg, PA has Lazzeroni ammo in some caliber or other. It's $99.95 a box of 20.

Again the specifics of how the velocity is obtained. As someone said when listening to a sales pitch "what am I giving up?"

Proman1 cannot understand why someone thinks a particular rifle kicks a lot and he drives a Ferrari! Heck some people have more ability than others. Proman maybe be one of those. Then maybe it's something else.

A neighbor of mine has an early 20-something daughter who gets off on heavy recoil. Three rounds through his #1 .458 and she's ready for a cigarette....

THAT"S something else to watch, by golly...


Combo

As a native Central Pennsylvanian, I grew up with a 300 Savage. My Step Dad, a Native American, taught me how to hunt....
Don

If they became extinct for no other reason other than what they charge for their ammunition - I think it would be a case of "the people having spoken" and a kind of poetic justice served to a company that feels it's smart business to sell people rifles and then gouge them mercelessly on the ammuntition.

Besides, who really needs four times the barrel wear, three times the recoil and twice the powder consumed - all to produce a cartridge that shoots 4 inches flatter than a "standard" cartridge - when shot at big game a quarter mile away - a difference that no man in the field will ever be able to notice.

Coyote Hunter,
The statements I made were my feelings on the subject at hand, they weren't posted to offend anybody, If you feel offended, then I sincerely apologize.. But to use a few words out of context from my posts is simply inane..

Let me explain the choice of my words..

"grubby paws" one who hasn't shot it or seen it, but disses it

"recoil garbage" simply put, it's not that bad, what's the problem?

"spewed" constant griping about cartridges that have a bit of a thump but usually about one they do not own and shoot

"junk" I admit I shouldn't have used that word, I should've said "stuff", ya got me on that one, sorry!

"miniature 30 cals" short, fat ..basically anything smaller and slower

"Yugo" side by side comparison based on my opinion only and we all have those.

I hope this will clear things up for all.

Gator,

I get that all the time, high powered hunting rifles aren't supposed to shoot tiny groups, a lot of people say it isn't possible. I guess me and my 'Bro stumbled on a couple rifles out of hundreds that do shoot well.. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

My reloading practices involve techniques used by the top shooters in the accuracy game. I spend countless hours tweaking the brass to accomplish concentric and identical rounds. Too much details to put here, there are many books written on this subject.

Here is what a 1/4" and 1/2" group look like, when fired with my "accursed" 7.82 Warbird with 180 grn. Accubonds @ 3520 fps.

proman1 -



I don't feel offended, but I would have enjoyed your post much more if you had simply extolled the virtues of the Lazzeroni cartridges of your choice and forgone the various terms I mentioned - each and every one of which was perjorative in one way or another.



For example, I have never seen a Lazzeroni, but I can confidently say I will never choose to own one and I can give good reasons why. Personally, I think they are way too expensive to own and shoot considering the marginal benefits they provide and the real drawbacks one must live with (scarcity of brass, scarcity of load data, scarcity of factory ammo, relatively short barrel life, higher powder consumption, limited resale market, and, yes, recoil). Guess that makes me a "grubby paws" person? No.



This morning I went to the range and was shooting at the 100/200 yard line. When I got to the .45-70 I started out with 350g hardcast at 1097fps and around 7 foot-pounds recoil. These are a joy to shoot at the 50 yard line, but the rear sight wouldn't elevate enough to get them on a clay pigeon at 100 yards. These loads will penetrate at least 5 water jugs, but recoil is so low that even my wife and Daughter #2 will shoot them. Next up were several loads in the 30-40 foot-pound range. Most people I know don't care to shoot these because they consider recoil to be severe. At the top of the recoil heap was my "Rhino Blaster" load, a 460g hardcast at 1812fps and 48 foot-pounds recoil, which makes your Lazzeroni look pretty tame in comparison. This load will certainly wake you up, but "it's not that bad" as you say, at least as far as I'm concerned (I've shot worse). Nevertheless, everyone I've offered to let shoot them has politely declined. What's the problem? The problem is that various people have various levels of recoil tolerance. Call it "recoil garbage" if you want, but it is a real concern for most shooters. Most game in North America can be cleanly taken with loads that generate recoil in the 14-25 foot-pound range, and most hunters their weapons accordingly. Many fiind the recoil of a .30-06 to be "excessive", and that is only in the 22-24 foot-pound range. "Recoil garbage"? No, just a simple recognition of basic truths.



The term "spewed" is suffficiently perjorative that I think no more explanation is needed.



Ditto with "junk", although you apologized for that one.



To me a "miniature .30 cal" is a .30 Carbine or 7.62x39 or maybe even a .300 Savage, but it hardly seems to fit anything from the .30-06 or up. Unless the land of the .30's is populated with all "miniatures" and one "giant size". No middle ground? Once again, unnecessarily perjorative.



One reason the Yugo's didn't last in the US market was their low quality. There is nothing inherently low quality about the .308, .30-06, WSM's RUM's, or other .300's. Slower than the Lazzeroni? Sure. Capable of the same accuracy? Yes. More than sufficient for most hunting needs? Again, yes.



I'm glad you got an accurate rifle/load combination and are having fun shooting it, but let's face it - if everyone needed what only the Lazzeroni's can do, you would see them in every gun shop.

Wish I could stay and discuss this some more but I'm headed to the range to test the 200 Grn. Accubond. This time around I'm shooting them into water filled milk jugs.

I'll also be shooting my friends 300 RUM and his brother in laws 300 WBY. Sighting in for moose season, they have no time so I do it for them, they offer $ I refuse, they insist, I say buy me 1 box of Accubonds and we're cool.. Will be shooting 20 rnds of each, then about 20 rnds. from my 500 S&W through a chronograph, expect 1600 fps with 440 Grn. hard cast bullets. Previous load was on the slow side with 1540 fps, needs more powder to make it shine.

Anyway... My problem is I've been shooting big cased cartridges and nothing else for the last few years (Warbird, 300 RUM, 8MM Mag)
All the others look tiny to me.