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I finally got the info from Walt Berger. 41.5 grs of IMR4895 is the hottest load shown.
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Joined: Jun 2004
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Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
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I put together some data from Lyman, Speer, Nosler and Sierra with the Sierra data coming from an older manual before they went to thick FC brass and got lawyerfied. The linear model suggests 41.6 grains as a max for IMR4895 with a 185 grain bullet. Not bad for figgerin' if I do say so myself. 
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Mathman, Your'e a good mathman.
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Campfire Kahuna
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Campfire Kahuna
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In my experience, if a load does not group well at 100 yards, it will not group any better at 200 or 600 or 1000 yards.
All the F-ers, I ever speak with are in agreement on this; if you can't make tiny little bugholes at 100 yards, do not expect to win matches.
Now, I have a theory as to why some people have problems shooting accurately at shorter distances. And I will offer a cure for that.
When I shoot at 100 yards, my expectation of a group is going to be smaller than a half MOA, in fact, I would hope for the fabled one hole group, AKA one ragged hole. But there are two problems with that. The first one is human and the second one is optical.
As human beings we get excited when the bullets hit the same spot over and over again, and as each shot lands, the excitement builds and so does the accompanying dread and trepidation. This culminates in the well known "called flyer," that ruins an otherwise excelent group. That isn't a called flyer, you got flustered and pulled one (or more).
The other aspect is that many make the silly mistake of using the exact POI as the POA. So that as each bullet lands, the aiming point is obliterated and the group grows.
Here is a susper secret method of dealing with both issue. At the 100 yard line, I make SURE that my point of aim (POA) is far removed from my point of impact. For example, my 1000 yard rifle require 30 some inches of elevation from 100 yards to hit the target. Son at 100 yards, I use a tall target and I make a small dot at the bottom of it. Then I take my 5 or 10 or 20 shot group by aiming the scope at the never changing dot. I use the same hold for every shot, and I can't even see the group because it's above my scope's field of view. In fact, I do not want to see the group. I don't bother with it. I will see it soon enough, when my group is finished.
This works very well for me and my groups are tiny at 100 yards so that I can be competitive at longer ranges. I disagree but we'll have to just stay that way on this one. I NEVER shoot at the same point I'm aiming at, IE I want my bullet holes off to one side..... and low. Explain how my 600 yard load is capable of 20X easy, yet shoot the same load at 300 and you'll never shoot a 200, even 0X. Trade that out for a different load and it'll shoot 15-17x or so at 300 reduced and probably would shoot 20 if I could... BUT accuracy requirements in sports are different and the approach vs twist, bullet etc... is different. Funny enough as an aside, as I recall shooting some version of 4895 and 185s in my M1As it was around 41 grains and pretty warm, while a buddy shot a bunch of them at 1000 at 41.5 exactly...though that was a bolt gun. Very accurate but would beat the snot out of you...
We can keep Larry Root and all his idiotic blabber and user names on here, but we can't get Ralph back..... Whiskey Tango Foxtrot, over....
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Joined: Jan 2009
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I finally got the info from Walt Berger. 41.5 grs of IMR4895 is the hottest load shown. You may want to ask him to check that. The Hodgdon website lists loads for IMR4895 AND H4895. The range of IMR 4895 is what I stated in my earlier post, but just for grins I just now checked the load fo H4895 and it was interesting: 180gr: 40.0gr to 42.5gr for MV of 2595. 190gr: 39.0gr to 42.0gr for MV of 2514. With this, I can see where 41.5gr of H4895 is considered a max load for 185gr bullets. But this would not be the first time where someone confused IMR4895 with H4895. At any rate, the numbers are there at the Hodgdon website for all to see. I think you will be disappointed with 41.5 gr of IMR4895.
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Campfire Regular
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I disagree but we'll have to just stay that way on this one. I NEVER shoot at the same point I'm aiming at, IE I want my bullet holes off to one side..... and low.
Explain how my 600 yard load is capable of 20X easy, yet shoot the same load at 300 and you'll never shoot a 200, even 0X. Trade that out for a different load and it'll shoot 15-17x or so at 300 reduced and probably would shoot 20 if I could...
BUT accuracy requirements in sports are different and the approach vs twist, bullet etc... is different.
Funny enough as an aside, as I recall shooting some version of 4895 and 185s in my M1As it was around 41 grains and pretty warm, while a buddy shot a bunch of them at 1000 at 41.5 exactly...though that was a bolt gun. Very accurate but would beat the snot out of you...
Let me turn the question around. Explain to me how a bullet that can't shoot at 300 yards magically groups nicely at double the distance? How can a bullet not hold 2 MOA at 300 but can hold 1 MOA at 600 yards? And M1As need tender care and loving in loading heavier bullets lest you bend that operating rod, you know that.
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I came across this thread while I was doing some research on the 185gr Berger VLD. http://www.snipershide.com/forum/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1366785&gonew=1#UNREADThe OP is going to use the 185gr VLD for hunting and he is local (to me.) His barrel is 18 inches (ugh) and he uses Varget, as I do. Berger has told him the top end is 41.6gr. He also looked at Hodgdon's website and extracted the same figures I did for Varget. Just so you know, my 180gr VLD load is over 44gr of Varget, I simply do not understand why an extra 5 gr in the bullet, an increase of 2.7% in weight, requires a 7% drop in powder charge. This makes even less sense when one considers that Hodgdon shows 44gr as the max for 190gr. Read the whole thread, it's quite illuminating.
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In his data were 13 different powders. 41.5 gr of IMR4895 and 42grs of H4895 were listed as max. Also, 41.6 grs of Varget was max. I loaded 5 loads, 38, 39, 40 ,41, &42 grs of IMR4895. I will chrono and accuracy test when time and weather allow, and will post results. I set all bullets kissing lands and will work from there.
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Joined: Jan 2009
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I emailed Mr. Berger on my own and got the same information you did, but he did add a few more points that actually explain the huge discrepancy in loads.
He stated that his loads are derived from Quick Load using a COAL of 2.810, which is the SAAMI spec. His bullets fit in magazines that are designed for SAAMI spec bullets. His second point is that his bullets are so long they intrude in the case and take up powder space when they are loaded to 2.8 COAL.
This explains the discrepancy.
I do not load my bullets to SAAMI specs, I load them to be in the lands as I had speced out the chambering. This produces a cartridge with a COAL of 2.935. The 180gr JLK I use is the exact same length as the 185gr VLD Berger, but I believe it has a more aerodynamic profile.
Mr. Berger did acknowledge that my COAL and velocity could be different. No kidding. I replied that I fully understand why he has to be cautious in his load recommendations because most people would load to SAAMI COAL.
So, the bottom line is that you have to do your load development in your own rifle. I would suggest you get a Stoney Point chamber guage and find out exactly how long you can seat the bullet. Since the ogive of the 185gr VLD is so long, I'm sure you can seat it longer than 2.810 and still not be in the lands.
If you seat at the lands, you will have a fairly long COAL and because you have so little powder in it, your MV will be even lower than what is predicted by Berger.
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Joined: Dec 2002
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Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
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Quickload still shows your load at 65kPSI plus, not counting the fact that your into the lands (add another 3~5kPSI). 
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And this is where it gets to be fun.
So we compare a computer-prediction with actual results. I say the load is fine and definitely not at maximum. All I have to back me up are the actual rifle and hundreds of fired cases. There is also that pesky Hodgdon website that bears me out.
But what are the signs of a hot load:
1- Heavy bolt lift. Hmm, not in this case. The bolt lifts just as nice as when the chamber is empty.
2- Flatened primers. Nope, not here, the primers are still nicely rounded. Picture perfect in fact.
3- Ejector mark on the rim. Not a chance, you can't even tell the cartridge has been used, even with a magnifying glass. I also checked on case with three firings in it. Same story.
4- OD of the case at the base has increased. Well, I just measured a fired case and a virgin case and the reading was the same: 0.468 (which is a tad under the maximum of 0.4709.) So this does not apply here either.
Short of a laboratory test environment, do you have any other things you look for in determining if your load is over maximum?
Also, VLD bullets are designed to be seated in the lands; the shape of their ogive does not create the increase in pressure at engraving time that regular bullets create.
Computer simulations/predictions are no substitute for actual measurements. Over at 6mmbr.com, they recommend Quickload users make use of ADI 2208 in lieu of Varget for appropriate measurements.
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Campfire Ranger
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I've heard more than once that you might not encounter pressure signs until you exceed 70kPSI. Having used strain gage equipment on a few different cartridges has confirmed that concept in my book. YMMV...
A competitor shooting next to a friend of mine at the nationals last week had to beat the bolt open on his rifle (.300 Win Mag) after each shot. He told my friend that his pressure was fine, wasn't causing issues. Had I been shooting next to said competitor I would have asked the line officer to either squad me on another relay or give me a refund.
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Right, right. I left my hammer at home.
So, did you try it with ADI 2208?
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Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
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Well, what we're gonna do, two of the boys I shoot with have been bitten by the heavy bug. Jim makes his own bullets so he's getting geared up to produce some 185gr's. Their both going to pick up a Bartlien gain twist (12/11) barrel, have a tight specs reamer made and throated to put the boat tail at the neck/shoulder junction while kissing the lands. While their waiting for their barrels I can put a strain gage on my barrel (1/11.25 Rock Creek) and do some velocity/pressure testing with Jim's bullets. I can also run some Berger 185's down the tube for comparison (though it won't be apples/apples test). Jim can probably get Brian Litz (he shows up at our local matches) to test the bullets to get a true BC. This will be a spring project, gettin too cold to play around outdoors.
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I think that's a great idea. I hope you don't mind if I don't hold my breath because right now is a great time to shoot in Texas and I have a match or six to attend.
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