Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Handguns Which bullet?

Unless I missed one while scanning those Midway pages you linked, the only bullets of .358 are lead; no jacketed bullets are. The oversize lead bullets swage down in the bore for good gas sealing. Jackets are harder, could cause pressure problems.

If you ever try to load an heirloom .45 Colt for accuracy, you'll have fun figuring out which bullet to use of the wide range of sizes possible! Tolerances were larger in the old days.

(Others will know far more than I about the fine points of matching bullet to bore.)

PS- I hope Midway did due diligence. They are one step away from the manufacturer- have a care from whom you get your tech specs.

Just pick the bullet you want and find a data source for that bullet and work up, not going over published speed or powder charge, if you have a chronograph.

Yeah, they're all okay so long as you have published data to work with.

GoldDots for the house; hard cast for the trail.

Ah, that makes sense, I got it, thanks for all the replies.

Barkoff - let's back up a little...



I'm gonna say Gold Dots for everything, in the .357.

JJ Hack wrote a long dissertation here some time ago about cast bullets from .357 handguns on black bears. IIRC, he had plenty of evidence to back up a preference for a good heavy hollowpoint for such use (but cast for larger calibers).

After much reading and comparing of loads and field notes, I'd say I have to agree with him on that. I know a few guys who either hunted or had unplanned opportunities to shoot western black bears with .357 revolvers. They all were using hollowpoints (some of them not even good ones) and all of their bears died soon enough. I have serious doubts that any of them would have died faster using hard cast lead - unless in result of a successful head shot. If you think you are reliably capable of making such a shot on an attacking bear (the only way you'll be able to claim "defense" beyond a doubt) then, well, go for it.

Besides all that - you are far more likely to have problems with people, feral dogs, or other smaller predators. From what I've seen and am otherwise privy to, your best all-around bet is to carry a good hollowpoint (like the 158gr Gold Dot) in your model 19.

You can get the Gold Dot for reloading. It's all I use in my heavier .357 loads and my serious .45acp loads. If you're worried about penetration on black bears, go with the 170gr GD. IMO, in .357 handguns, cast bullets are for practice or competition - the real world goes better with a good controlled-expansion hollowpoint.

357 Gold Dots are not as easy to expand as they are in 45 Cal




I would like to know what type of cast bullet that JJ was useing? Wide meplat hard cast work extremely well

Here are the other bullets that were tested that day

Hack is a professional guide who has posted here for years. His opinion of .357 cast bullets vs hollowpoints on black bears is the result of "being there" when various loads have been used over the years.

Shooting handgun bullets into the ground is about the least reliable indicator of terminal performance there is. Dirt doesn't do to bullets what flesh and blood do.

Thank you, I like reading JJHack's stuff, was the article in question on this site? Link?

Yep, it was here. I think it was in the Hunters Campfire forum a couple years ago, IIRC. Maybe I can find it in a search...

I have shot a hell of a lot of game with a handgun and my opion is from being there doing that and my results are far different with WIDE FLAT POINT HARD CAST

Here are a few that I have taken with a handgun and hard cast




















I know who JJ is and I do not believe that the instance that he saw hard cast that they were WIDE FLAT POINT HARD CAST

I stand by my previous post and that is the 160 grain 357 mag load as loaded by Speer does not expand well or consistently

It does penetrate well

Not trying to get into a pissing match, jwp - but I only went by what I read on your target..."12" into the ground". Have you tried this same load on game?

Are all those photos of you with a .357 in hand?

Still searching for Hack's post. How in the heck do you find a post more than 1 year old here?

The bullet went through 12" of water soaked wet pack and then 2" into the ground. The same wet pack that the other bullets were shot into. Wet pack can be carolated to flesh and how a bullet will perform.


I always emphasive wide flat point and by that I mean that the meplat should be from 72 to 78 percent of the bullets diameter (78% being optimal), if one follows this they will not be dissapointed in the flat point hard cast wound channel.

I asked JJ in one of those threads about the meplat of the hard cast that he saw used and I don't believe that he replied.


The Speer load is about 200 FPS slower than the Buffalo Bore load, the added speed may change the outcome but I have not tested the Buffalo Bore load as yet. The standard 158 grain JHP CCI load expands very well at the same velocity that the Gold Dot does not

Thanks for the clarification. Still - there are those who would argue that wet newspaper isn't that great of a test medium either. Lot's of room for argument on that matter when it comes to testing loads for defense against human flesh - but no need for that when it comes to killing animals, since loads can be tested on the real deal. My question for either side of this debate would be - is a poorly-expanding hollowpoint of similar weight going to do any worse than a flat-pointed cast bullet?

And there's still those dead bears - one of which I received the pelt from...

So - you shot those moose and brown bears with a .357?

I'll take a WFN hardcast over the hollow-point as well. They will out penetrate a hollow-point that fails to expand. I want to be able to completely rely on my bullet to penetrate deep and straight, and that excludes the ollow-point at handgun velocities. JMHO.

First things first...

JWP, you are right and I am wrong...I think.

I didn't like that I had brought JJHack's name into it without citations, so I did the digging to check my (questionable) memory. The two posts that he covered this subject that I could find in all his posts here are these...

JJHack on cast vs HP in .44mag

JJHack on various loads

It would seem that the only reference he made relevent to this thread was a complete distaste for any .357 on any large game. The cast vs HP remarks were only related to the .44mag.

Still, I know of these other black bears that were killed in "defense" - not normal hunting situations (except the one guy who did that repeatedly) with .357 and HP ammo. The key to my reasoning on this is that black bears in this part of the country run about the size of a large man, on average (yours may differ), and would likely be exposing the easiest route to it's vitals in an attack - and the fact that the odds are more likely that problems would arise with much softer animals than a bear. In all my time in the field (including backpacking trips and other trips into the deep back-country and otherwise) the only animals I have ever been seriously threatened by, to my knowledge, were stray dogs and man (well...and maybe that cougar that was trailing me).

Black bears, of which we have plenty, typically tend to keep to themselves and are easily driven away even when attracted by easy food. The possible exception here is the habituated "park bear". How are they dealing with these in Yosemite these days? From what I've seen so far you pretty much have to get between a sow and her cubs to be in any real danger. It's pretty easy to avoid that.

I recall JJ's dissertation, and I have no street creds against his 400 or something bears, but also note his belief that they (HP's) always expand and give more "shock". I believe he may be correct since the bears in question were shot at very close range (I believe), no one knows cause he didn't specify, but when hunting do you have a choice in distance?. Do you know if JJ was hunting these bears, or were they trapped or treed on control work?

I can tell you most do not past 35-40 yds driven to magnum speeds in 45 Colt and 44 Mag, so some of us have reasonable doubt.

I also recall JJ not putting and CNS/bone hits into factor. he didn't specify that either. I would concede a more noticeable kill for a HP that actually expanded over certain cast designs on a lung shot within a certain range; shoulder bones I disagree.

Put it this way; Ross Seyfried used hard cast LBT bullets for Cape Buffalo. I feel JJ would call it a stunt, but I don't think he'd be all spry to poke anything truly dangerous with his XTP's, for good reason.

HP/SP "expanding" bullets are built to parameters of performance, the only parameters for hard cast are meplat and bore size and to a lesser extent, speed. And don't take the manufacturers word on anything (grins)

Its nice to remember the "real" world, when asked for things to expand out of handguns, or most any low velocity arm (grins)



Shame, they weren't even hollow points.....



Am giving the .358 bore a try this year for deer, hopefully with some pics to banter over.