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#3476558 - 11/13/09 QuickLOAD Barnes TSX/TTSX and Accurate Powders?
Salmotrutta Offline
Campfire Regular

Registered: 10/07/09
Posts: 292
Loc: SW Colorado
I just got QuickLOAD v. 3.5 primarily to help me work on my .338 Federal. Another member claimed I was about to blow myself up with the loads I was using so I figured this was the next best thing to a pressure barrel.

After messing around with the software awhile it seems it doesn't account for the Barnes .338 TSX/TTSX bullets very well. For instance when you select the old .338 210gr "x" bullet and compare it to the new 210 gr TSX bullet - it actually shows the old "x" bullet generating less pressure. Now thats not right! We know the old "x" bullets are known to generate relatively high pressures - and the new TSX bullets are very comparible a conventional bullet - in terms of pressure levels.

Anyone else run into this - did you "fix" it - how? Starting pressures didn't seem to do much - any other suggestions?

Also the burn rate data on Accurate/Ramshot powders seems to be way off as well, compounding my problems. At least in the 2230, 2460, and TAC powders. For instance: If you run the max Barnes (www.barnesbullets.com) .338 Fed load for the 210gr TSX/TTSX and 46.0 gr of 2230 in a 24" bbl - you get 85K PSI!!!!! Now thats not right either!!! I have to assume that Barnes' Weisman test barrel is about as SAAMI spec as you get - so this should be as good of a comparison as there is. Still my pet load with the 210 gr and 48gr of 2460 "appears" safe in my gun - but in QuickLOAD it generates 87K PSI!!!!! So I have come to the conclusion that I am either as safe or as dangerous as the published Barnes data - but I would still like QuickLOAD to spit out data thats closer to reality.

I have measured and adjusted case capacity, bore area, and I am waiting on an L-N-L case I am having modified from Hornady to work on the chamber dimensions for my gun. BUT none of these mods are going to help the problems I am seeing test bbl vs. QuickLOAD.

Any help out there????
_________________________
"Do you want it "Right", or "Right now"? - always a good question.

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#3478558 - 11/14/09 Re: QuickLOAD Barnes TSX/TTSX and Accurate Powders? [Re: Salmotrutta]
h_broemel Offline
Member

Registered: 08/21/06
Posts: 99
Hi Salmotrutta,

I just checked your findings about .338 Fed., and for the Accurate(brochure 3.3) data Quickload is on par with what they publish in pressure and velocity.

Btw. the 210gr TSX shows lower pressure than the 210gr X bullet.

If you want to test some cartridges, try Accurate/Ramshot Lab. I am not sure they are still doing some testing, but anyway contact their ballistician.

Bullet manufacturers will sell their bullets. They almost do not know what is in the powder canister they used for testing. Is the powder used for creating a load for the loading manual on the fast side or slow side of the tolerance band?

That is something a powder manufacturer is knowing and therefore I would trust loading data from powder manufacturers.
But things have changed. Some manuals even publish loads touching the maximum average pressure set by SAAMI or CIP.

This will not work in real world. Because the statistics will show if you put that max. load in a sample of 20 cartridges a great amount of them violates safe conditions.

Meanwhile it seems that Barnes has fixed the resistance of the bullet engaging the rifling as it was intended with the TSX grooves. So you may lower for TSX/TTSX the shot start pressure to 200bars/2900 psi. TTSX are significantly longer and cause higher pressures than same mass TSX. Because there may are a lot of older TSX boxes on handloaders benches, I leaved a somewhat higher start pressure for the TSX. Thats also true for some other brands of monolithique bullets.

Hartmut
_________________________
"A stupid man's report of what a clever man says can never be accurate, because he unconsciously translates what he hears into something he can understand." Bertrand Russell

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#3479678 - 11/14/09 Re: QuickLOAD Barnes TSX/TTSX and Accurate Powders? [Re: h_broemel]
Salmotrutta Offline
Campfire Regular

Registered: 10/07/09
Posts: 292
Loc: SW Colorado
Hartmut - Thanks for the reply.

I re-checked the "X" vs the "TSX" bullet and I agree with your correction, QuickLOAD has those represented fairly - my mistake.

But I am frightened by the published Barnes data! If the TSX/TTSX bullet models in QuickLOAD are reasonable and the Accurate powder model is OK - then the Barnes Load manual #4 is publishing data that is way beyond safe!!!! (therefore so are my handloads!)i.e.

From Barnes Manual #4 -
.338 Fed Max loads
160gr TTSX - 53.0 gr AA2230 - QuickLOAD PSI = 88,336!!!!
210gr TSX BT - 46.0 gr AA2230 - QuickLOAD PSI = 74,808!!!!

Back to the bench - scared!
_________________________
"Do you want it "Right", or "Right now"? - always a good question.

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#3483658 - 11/16/09 Re: QuickLOAD Barnes TSX/TTSX and Accurate Powders? [Re: Salmotrutta]
oldman1942 Offline
Campfire Ranger

Registered: 09/15/09
Posts: 4901
Loc: WY & FL
Sorry to disagree, but Barnes loads are, if anything, conservative.
All these computer programs are nice but there is no 88,000 psi load anywhere in the Barnes book. Suggest you call Barnes and talk to Randy to get some real facts.

At 88K you'ld need a hammer to open the bolt and the primer would be nowhere to be found.

A chronograph is the best way to test loads. Once you equal the max velocity quoted with no pressure signs, it's time to stop.

Since 2230 is the slowest powder listed and 27-2800 with a 185 TSX in a 338 Fed is no sweat due to the bullet jump dropping initial pressure, I think your software is wrong.

4895 can get 2700 at 58.2K PSI (see Hodgdon site).

If you are concerned, start with your AA book data and work up 1/2 gr at a time behind a chronograph and look for pressure signs. Maybe Barnes had a smooth, loose barrel and we know it was 24" long.

My Kimber 338 Fed sure liked that 38 gr load of 4198 behind the 185 and it was big Elk medicine.



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#3485874 - 11/17/09 Re: QuickLOAD Barnes TSX/TTSX and Accurate Powders? [Re: oldman1942]
toad Offline
Campfire Tracker

Registered: 02/01/09
Posts: 5794
Loc: Montana
i trust QL more than i trust my slew of manuals. the QL results seem more in line with what i see. the COAL can be tailored to each rifle.
_________________________
Guns don't kill people, drivers with cell phones kill people.

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#3486263 - 11/17/09 Re: QuickLOAD Barnes TSX/TTSX and Accurate Powders? [Re: oldman1942]
Salmotrutta Offline
Campfire Regular

Registered: 10/07/09
Posts: 292
Loc: SW Colorado
If you haven't tried QuickLOAD, you really should. Would you develop your reloads without a chronograph? Of course not, but really that only tells you something about external ballistics. You are just guessing on what is going on inside. Looking at cases even measuring casehead and primer pockets(as I regularly do) is just as accurate at determining pressure as looking as holes in paper to determine velocity - you are just guessing.

There is some info on here in the "Gunwriters" area on how unreliable traditional pressure signs are - and there are some studies on "pet" loads that show handloaders regularly push thier favorite loads well into the upper 70Kpsi area without signs of pressure. I will look again for that stuff tonight. By the way I agree (so does QuickLOAD) that 2700fps for a 185 TSX with H4895 is a reasonable load. Just the 160gr and 210gr are way off. I had no trouble getting to 2600fps with a 210 and AA2460 and no measurable pressure signs - that doesn't mean its safe - I am learning, slowly. Nothing against the 185TSX - its just that the 210 TTSX carries energy better and (according to Barnes still opens up at 1750fps - where the TSX needs about 2000fps) So if I can get it to fly at about 2550fps - it really gives me the performance I am looking for - if not I will have to switch bullets.

I have already e-mailed Barnes - if I don't hear from them in a week or so I will give them a call. BTW it wouldn't be the first time Barnes put too hot data in Manual #4 - just take a look at the corrections on-line. I am not bashing Barnes, I have used them almost exclusively for the past 15 years, and I still think its the best bullet for my needs.
_________________________
"Do you want it "Right", or "Right now"? - always a good question.

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#3488366 - 11/17/09 Re: QuickLOAD Barnes TSX/TTSX and Accurate Powders? [Re: Salmotrutta]
oldman1942 Offline
Campfire Ranger

Registered: 09/15/09
Posts: 4901
Loc: WY & FL
There are NO 88K PSI loads in the Barnes #4. You find one and verify it from an independent lab, I'll buy you an Elk steak dinner!

While I agree that "traditional" pressure signs are imperfect, they gotta be better than software that is that far off.

Of course that software was made for the chief antigun spokesman Bill Gate's crap Windows system so who knows why it says what it does.

Those of us in the MAC world will trust our chronographs and "traditional" pressure indicators like measuring the case heads and ease of opening the bolt.

As for the 338 185 not opening up in a 338 Federal... a picture is worth 1000 words. That Cow was 120 yards away, both shoulders were broken and the bullet went a considerable way into the clay hill behind her. She fell over dead.

IMO the 338 F is at most a 300 yard cartridge in a super light package like the Kimber 84. If I wanted to lug nine pounds I'd take my 375 H&H as nine pounds is nine pounds so why bother with any lesser cartridge? An old 210 gr X @3000 shoots as flat as an 06' and the new 235 TSX will also do 3000. Either of those will "end to end" anything living here in WY.

Barnes is the best bullet when you have to get the job done regardless of species. If all you deal with are Whitetails you might not "need" it (still no reason to avoid it), but when a slink through the black timber for Mulies can turn into a meeting with Ursus arctos horribilis, I prefer Barnes. (Next to my BPS 10 bore loaded with 2 oz "deer" slugs).

Be most interested to hear what Ty @ Barnes says about your 88K PSI load! There are only two corrections to load data in manual #4. Neither involve any 338 cartridge.


Edited by oldman1942 (11/17/09)

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#3488459 - 11/17/09 Re: QuickLOAD Barnes TSX/TTSX and Accurate Powders? [Re: toad]
oldman1942 Offline
Campfire Ranger

Registered: 09/15/09
Posts: 4901
Loc: WY & FL
Originally Posted By: toad
i trust QL more than i trust my slew of manuals. the QL results seem more in line with what i see. the COAL can be tailored to each rifle.


Well just got off the phone with Ty @ Barnes and here are some facts that may be of interest.

1. EVERY Barnes load is tested on an actual pressure barrel
2. NO Quickload loads have been tested on actual pressure barrels.
3. Quickload will admit that their data for straight wall cases if OFF an average of 6%.

So you can trust some computer programmer, I'll chose to trust the folks who actually make, test the bullets and whose reputation is on the line.

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#3488890 - 11/17/09 Re: QuickLOAD Barnes TSX/TTSX and Accurate Powders? [Re: oldman1942]
toad Offline
Campfire Tracker

Registered: 02/01/09
Posts: 5794
Loc: Montana
Originally Posted By: oldman1942
Originally Posted By: toad
i trust QL more than i trust my slew of manuals. the QL results seem more in line with what i see. the COAL can be tailored to each rifle.


Well just got off the phone with Ty @ Barnes and here are some facts that may be of interest.

1. EVERY Barnes load is tested on an actual pressure barrel
2. NO Quickload loads have been tested on actual pressure barrels.
3. Quickload will admit that their data for straight wall cases if OFF an average of 6%.

So you can trust some computer programmer, I'll chose to trust the folks who actually make, test the bullets and whose reputation is on the line.



that's funny. my QuickLoad has a list of at least 100 test barrels listed.

Barnes only lists a few powders for each bullet weight. QL lets you use what YOU want to use.

i have the Barnes #3 and #4 manuals, but use QL anyway. here's why:

i have set up a load to my rifle (bbl length and COAL), pulled that data into QuickTarget and got drop numbers that produced hits on 1MOA targets at 550 yards from a 100 yard zero. that won't happen if the data isn't accurate.
_________________________
Guns don't kill people, drivers with cell phones kill people.

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#3490088 - 11/18/09 Re: QuickLOAD Barnes TSX/TTSX and Accurate Powders? [Re: toad]
oldman1942 Offline
Campfire Ranger

Registered: 09/15/09
Posts: 4901
Loc: WY & FL
Well then I guess the chief tech at Barnes is a liar and Quickload is telling the truth.

A list of test barrels is hardly the same as having a scientific underground range with real test equipment?
Maybe a trip to the Barnes factory night be enlightening for you.

Why do I believe a company with a multi decade reputation for honesty and superior products rather than a bunch of geeks writing code that has never seen a critical review in any major shooting publication?

Regardless, it runs on Bill Gates software and he is an anti-gun freak, so I wouldn't buy anything he is involved in.

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#3490447 - 11/18/09 Re: QuickLOAD Barnes TSX/TTSX and Accurate Powders? [Re: oldman1942]
toad Offline
Campfire Tracker

Registered: 02/01/09
Posts: 5794
Loc: Montana
QuickLoad proof barrel list

Available Test Barrels
.17 - 22 Hornet
.17 K Hornet
.17 Mach IV
.17 Rem Fireball
.17 Rem.
.17-222 Rem.
.204 Ruger
.215
.218 Bee
.219 Zipper
.22 Hornet 618
.22 K Hornet 600
.22 PPC
.22 PPC-USA
.22 Rem. Jet CF Mag.
.22 Savage
.220 Swift
.221 Rem. Fireball
.222 Rem.
.222 Rem. Mag.
.22-250 Rem.
.223 Rem.
.223 WSSM
.224 Weatherby Mag.
.225 Win.
.240 Belt. Riml. N.E.
.240 Fl. N.E. 600
.240 Weatherby Mag.
.243 Win.
.243 WSSM
.244 H&H Mag.
.244 Rem.
.25 - 20 Win.
.25 - 35 Win.
.25 Rem.
.25 WSSM
.250 Savage
.25-06 Rem.
.256 Mag. Gibbs
.256 Win. Mag.
.257 Roberts
.257 Weatherby Mag.
.260 Rem.
.264 Leroy N.E.
.264 Win. Mag.
.270 Weatherby Mag.
.270 Win.
.270 WSM
.275 Belt. N.E.
.275 H.V. Rigby
.277 GS
.280 Fl. N.E.
.280 Rem.
.280 Riml. NE Ross
.284 Win.
.297/230 Morris long
.297/230 Morris sh
.297/250 Rook Rifle
.30 - 06 Court Cartry
.30 - 06 Springfield
.30 - 06 Springfield Polygon
.30 - 20
.30 - 223
.30 - 284 Win.
.30 - 30 Win.
.30 - 378 Weatherby Mag.
.30 - 40 Krag
.30 Carbine
.30 Court
.30 FL. N.E. Purdey
.30 R Blaser
.30 Rem.
.30 Super Fl. H&H
.300 H&H Mag. 650
.300 Lapua Mag.
.300 Pegasus
.300 Rem. S.A. Ultra Mag.
.300 Rem. Ultra Mag.
.300 Savage
.300 Sherwood
.300 Weatherby Mag.
.300 Win. Mag.
.300 WSM 650
.300/295 Rook Rifle
.303 British
.303 Savage
.307 Win.
.308 E.H.
.308 Norma Mag.
.308 Win.
.308 Win. Polygon
.310 Cadet Rifle
.318 Riml. NE
.32 - 20 Win.
.32 - 40 Win.
.32 H&R Mag.
.32 Long Colt
.32 Rem.
.32 S&W
.32 S&W Long N.P.
.32 S&W Long WC
.32 Short Colt
.32 Win. SL
.32 Win. Spec.
.320 Long
.320 Short
.33 Win.
.333 Riml. NE
.338 - 378 Weatherby Mag.
.338 Lapua Mag.
.338 Rem. Ultra Mag.
.338 Win. Mag.
.340 Weatherby Mag.
.348 Win.
.35 Rem.
.35 Whelen 600
.35 Win.
.35 Win. SL
.350 Mag. Rigby
.350 No. 2 Rigby
.350 Rem. Mag.
.351 Win. SL
.356 TSW
.356 Win.
.357 Auto Mag.
.357 Mag.
.357 Maximum 150
.357 SIG 150 200
.357 SIG Polygon
.358 Norma Mag.
.358 Win.
.360 N.E. 2 1/4"
.369 N.E. Purdey
.375 Brandt 650
.375 Fl. Mag. N.E. 645
.375 Fl. N.E. 2 1/4"
.375 H&H Mag. 650
.375 Rem. Ultra Mag.
.375 W.R.
.375 Weatherby Mag.
.375 Win. 600
.375 R Hölderlin
.376 Steyr
.378 Weatherby Mag.
.38 - 40 Win.
.38 - 45 ACP 150
.38 - 55 Win.
.38 / 357 FX
.38 Long Colt
.38 S&W Colt N.P.
.38 Short Colt
.38 Special 150
.38 Special A.M.U.
.38 Special WC 150
.38 Super Auto 150
.38 Super Auto Polygon
.380 Long
.380 Long Rifle
.380 Short
.40 - 82 Win.
.40 S&W
.40 S&W Polygon
.400 / 350 N.E.
.400 Cor Bon
.400 H&H Mag.
.400 N.E. B.P. 3" Purdey
.401 Win. SL
.404 Riml. N.E.
.405 Win.
.408 Win.
.41 ACT EXP
.41 Long Colt
.41 Rem. Mag.
.411 K.D.F.
.416 Rem. Mag.
.416 Rigby 650
.416 Taylor 600
.416 Weatherby Mag.
.425 Westley Richards (Mag.)
.44 - 357 Bain-Davis
.44 - 40 Win.
.44 Colt
.44 Auto Mag.
.44 Rem. Mag.
.44 S&W Russian
.44 S&W Special
.444 Marlin 600
.45 - 70 Elko Mag.
.45 - 70 Government
.45 Auto
.45 Auto Polygon
.45 Auto Rim
.45 Blaser
.45 Colt
.45 GAP
.45 HP
.45 S&W Schofield
.45 Win. Mag.
.450 Marlin
.450 N.E No.2 3"1/2 Eley
.450 N.E. 3 1/4"
.450 Rigby
.450 Short
.450 Watts Mag.
.450/400 Mag. N.E. 3 1/4"
.450/400 N.E. 3"
.454 Casull Mag. 150
.455 Colt Eley Enfield
.455 MK II
.455 Webley
.458 Lott
.458 Win. Mag.
.460 Weatherby Mag
.460 Steyr
.465 H&H Mag.
.470 N.E. 650
.475 Ackley Mag.
.475 Linebaugh
.475 No. 2 N.E.
.480 Ruger
.50 AE 150
.500 S&W Magnum
.50 Browning
.500 N.E. 3"
.500/416 N.E.
.500/465 N.E.
.500/465 No. 2 Musket
.505 Mag. Gibbs
.577 - 500 N.E.
.577 N.E. 3"
.577 Sld. Snider
.577/450 Sld. Mart. H.
.600 N.E.
.700 H&H Nitro Express
.700/500
.700/577
10 mm Auto
10 mm Auto Polygon
10 x 25
10,3 x 60 R 600
10,4 Ord. It.
10,75 x 45 R
10,75 x 68
10,75 x 73
11,15 x 60 R
11,15 x 65 R Express
11,2 x 60
11,2 x 72 Schüler
11,6 x 66
12,5 x 70 Schüler
12,7 x 107
4 Bore Rifle
4,6 x 30
5,45 x 18
5,45 x 39 (5,45 x 39,5)
5,56 x 45 NATO
5,6 x 35 R
5,6 x 39
5,6 x 50 Magmum
5,6 x 50 R Mag.
5,6 x 52 R
5,6 x 57
5,6 x 57 R
5,6 x 61 R SE v.H.
5,6 x 61 SE v. H.
5,6 x 70 R
5,7 x 28
5,75 Velodog
6 mm BR Norma
6 mm BR Rem.
6 mm PPC
6 mm Rem.
6 PPC-USA
6,5 mm Grendel
6 x 47 ATZL
6 x 47 SM
6 x 50 R Scheiring
6 x 51 ATZL
6 x 52 R Bretschneider
6 x 62 Freres
6 x 62 R Freres
6 x 70 R
6,35 Browning
6,35 x 19 Fiocchi
6,5 mm Rem. Mag.
6,5 x 27 R
6,5 x 50 R
6,5 x 51 R (Arisaka)
6,5 x 52 Carcano
6,5 x 52 R
6,5 x 53 R Mannl.
6,5 x 54 Mannl.-Schön.
6,5 x 54 Mauser
6,5 x 55 SE
6,5 x 57
6,5 x 57 R
6,5 x 58 Mauser
6,5 x 58 R
6,5 x 63 Mag.
6,5 x 63 R MES Mag
6,5 x 64
6,5 x 64 Brenneke
6,5 x 64 R Brenneke
6,5 x 65 RWS
6,5 x 65 R RWS
6,5 x 68
6,5 x 68 R
6,5 x 70 R
6,5 x 72 R
6,5-284 Norma
6,8 mm Rem. SPC
7 - 30 Waters
7 mm - 08 Rem.
7 mm BR Rem.
7 mm Exp. Rem.
7 mm KM
7 mm Mag. Fl. H.&H.
7 mm Rem. Mag.
7 mm Rem. S.A. Ultra Mag.
7 mm Rem. Ultra Mag.
7 mm SE v. H.
7 mm STW
7 mm Weatherby Mag
7 mm WSM
7 x 33 Sako
7 x 39 Giat
7 x 45 Giat
7 x 49 GJW
7 x 50 R
7 x 57 R
7 x 61 Super
7 x 64
7 x 65 R
7 x 67 R Luyven
7 x 70 R Freres
7 x 72 R
7 x 75 R SE v.H.
7,35 x 52 Carcano
7,5 Ord. Suisse Pistol
7,5 x 54 MAS
7,5 x 55 GP11 SUISSE
7,62 Nagant
7,62 UKM
7,62 x 25 Tokarev
7,62 x 26,5 W.C.
7,62 x 39
7,62 x 45
7,62 x 51 NATO
7,62 x 53 R Finn.
7,62 x 54 R
7,63 Mauser 150
7,65 Browning
7,65 Long (French)
7,65 Parabellum
7,65 x 53
7,7 Japanese (Arisaka)
7,92 x 33 kurz
8 mm Gibbs
8 mm Gasser
8 mm Lebel
8 mm Lebel (M/93)
8 mm Rem. Mag.
8 mm Steyr
8 x 48 R
8 x 50 R
8 x 51 (Mauser K)
8 x 56 Mannl.-Schön.
8 x 56 R M 30
8 x 56 R M 30 S
8 x 56 R M Port. Krop.
8 x 57 I
8 x 57 IR
8 x 57 IRS
8 x 57 IS
8 x 57 R
8 x 58 R
8 x 60
8 x 60 R
8 x 60 RS
8 x 60 S
8 x 64
8 x 64 S
8 x 65 R
8 x 65 RS
8 x 68 S
8 x 72 R
8 x 75 RS
8 x 75 S
8,15 x 46 R
8,15 x 52 R
8,2 x 53 R
8,5 x 63
8,5 x 63 R
8,5 x 75 R
9 mm Bergmann - Bayard
9 mm Browning court
9 mm Browning long
9 mm Federal
9 MM FX & CQT
9 mm Luger
9 mm Luger Polygon
9 mm Makarov
9 mm Mauser
9 mm Steyr
9 x 18
9 x 21
9 x 22 Major
9 x 22 Major Polygon
9 x 23 Win.
9 x 24 KC
9 x 25 Super Auto G
9 x 56 Mannl.-Schön.
9 x 57
9 x 57 R
9,3 x 53 (Schweiz)
9,3 x 53 R (Finn)
9,3 x 53 R (Swiss)
9,3 x 57
9,3 x 57 R
9,3 x 62
9,3 x 63
9,3 x 64
9,3 x 65 R
9,3 x 66 Sako
9,3 x 70 (DWM569)
9,3 x 72 R
9,3 x 74 R
9,5 x 57 Mannl.-Schön.
9,5 x 66 SE v.H.
10,15 x 51
_________________________
Guns don't kill people, drivers with cell phones kill people.

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#3493071 - 11/19/09 Re: QuickLOAD Barnes TSX/TTSX and Accurate Powders? [Re: oldman1942]
Salmotrutta Offline
Campfire Regular

Registered: 10/07/09
Posts: 292
Loc: SW Colorado
Just some more facts....So far I still think there is something wrong with Barnes AA2230 data in Manual #4 for the .338 Fed. Ty didn't add anything I didn't already know. Still waiting for a response from Barnes about the actual .338 Fed pressure tests.

When you run the AA2230 data on Accurate's website for the .338 Fed - QuickLOAD matched it almost exactly. So that means that the test barrel model and the AA2230 powder data in QuickLOAD is pretty spot on. So the AA2230 burn rate, energy curve, etc. just like what Accurate considers AA2230.

When you run the 185 TSX Barnes data for 43.0gr of I4189 in QuickLOAD in a standard 24" bbl you get 54,644 psi and 2580fps.
Now Barnes Manual #4 doesn't list pressures but it does list a MV of 2572fps. Not only is that "safe" but also dead on. So the barrel Barnes used also seems to match QuickLOAD, and the bullet data in QL must be pretty close as well.

So I am having trouble believing that there is something wrong with QuickLOAD (regardless of the computer I run it on). Therefore I am left wondering if...

Did the test powder sent to Barnes as AA2230 - actually match the canister powder? Or was there some mixup along the way. Things happen - just trying to figure out what. Seems like a likely possibility.

BTW - I am also sick of hearing this Barnes bullets don't open up. Seems to me the TSX's open up as well as any other "tough" bullet - and the tipped bullets might actually open at lower velocities than the competition.

I bought my .338Fed Kimber 84M Montana for the same reason as you - 90%+ of all the animals I've killed were well within 300yds. When the elk around here smell hunting season - they ain't hangn' out in those pretty meadows. If I knew - or thought I really was going to be shooting over 300yds I'd take my "other" gun. But - I'd still like to get 400yds or so out of my 84M - just in case....
_________________________
"Do you want it "Right", or "Right now"? - always a good question.

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#3503726 - 11/23/09 Re: QuickLOAD Barnes TSX/TTSX and Accurate Powders? [Re: Salmotrutta]
oldman1942 Offline
Campfire Ranger

Registered: 09/15/09
Posts: 4901
Loc: WY & FL
Nice list of barrels....anyone actually seen them? You can see the pressure barrels at Barnes.

If you're still waiting to hear from Barnes you must not have phone service. I got through to Ty in three minutes.

I repeat there are no 88,000 psi loads in Barnes #4, it's just lousy code in the program.

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#3503937 - 11/23/09 Re: QuickLOAD Barnes TSX/TTSX and Accurate Powders? [Re: oldman1942]
toad Offline
Campfire Tracker

Registered: 02/01/09
Posts: 5794
Loc: Montana
i could give your the contact number they list with the barrels but i see no reason to respond with your attitude.

they state the length and location of each barrel in that file.
_________________________
Guns don't kill people, drivers with cell phones kill people.

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#3504037 - 11/23/09 Re: QuickLOAD Barnes TSX/TTSX and Accurate Powders? [Re: oldman1942]
Salmotrutta Offline
Campfire Regular

Registered: 10/07/09
Posts: 292
Loc: SW Colorado
Nice guy that Ty is... He did respond to my e-mail and is "thinking" about the information. I think its fair to allow some time for all parties to test and evaluate the info as they see fit.

Still thinking about that "elk steak" dinner. Not that I need an elk steak (my freezer is full) but I might enjoy watching someone cook for me. So how about this...if they pull the .338 Fed loads with AA2230 from the manual, I still get my dinner?

So if there are no "high pressure" (not saying its exactly 88K) why did they pull the 7mm-08 AA2520 loads? They only went 71-74K psi in QuickLOAD......Hummm maybe they should have used QL first???
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#3506241 - 11/23/09 Re: QuickLOAD Barnes TSX/TTSX and Accurate Powders? [Re: Salmotrutta]
oldman1942 Offline
Campfire Ranger

Registered: 09/15/09
Posts: 4901
Loc: WY & FL
What part of pick up the fing phone did you miss? It's an 800 number even!

Sounds like AA powder data is suspect, but why bother anyway?

If I can't do it with IMR, WRA or Hodgdon, I guess it can't be done.

BTW if you don't like the Barnes Book's data, then toss it in the garbage and switch to Sierra or Hornady... I'm sure they use Quickload rather than their own research facilities.... LMAO!

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#3506521 - 11/24/09 Re: QuickLOAD Barnes TSX/TTSX and Accurate Powders? [Re: oldman1942]
toad Offline
Campfire Tracker

Registered: 02/01/09
Posts: 5794
Loc: Montana
i have and use every manual you mention, but the Hodgdon manual is more useful to me.

if it came down to one source, i'd keep QL. is it perfect? no.

is any paper manual perfect? nope.
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#3508991 - 11/24/09 Re: QuickLOAD Barnes TSX/TTSX and Accurate Powders? [Re: toad]
oldman1942 Offline
Campfire Ranger

Registered: 09/15/09
Posts: 4901
Loc: WY & FL
The best deal is to get all the Hodgdon data on line FREE. Covers IMR, Hodgdon and WRA brands which are all I need.

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#3520693 - 11/29/09 Re: QuickLOAD Barnes TSX/TTSX and Accurate Powders? [Re: oldman1942]
kelbro Offline
Campfire Regular

Registered: 06/24/06
Posts: 369
Loc: AZ
I have spoken with Ty on several occasions and he has always maintained that Barnes does test every load that they recommend.

Quickload has been very, very close on many loads that I have tried.

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#3541122 - 12/05/09 Re: QuickLOAD Barnes TSX/TTSX and Accurate Powders? [Re: kelbro]
Salmotrutta Offline
Campfire Regular

Registered: 10/07/09
Posts: 292
Loc: SW Colorado
Answers? OK so here are the responses from those closest to the issue. I was fortunate enough to get a response from the Quickload (QL) developer, the bullet manufacturer and the powder manufacturer. That pretty much covers all the bases, if anyone thinks they know more than these folks, you are in the wrong job. Here are their answers to my question... "Do you think the Barnes .338 Fed data with Accurate powder is reasonable?" Here are the answers. The info may or may not be applicable to your situation, so please do NOT apply without doing your own research. I am amused by the difference between which ones actually understand what’s going on inside the barrel, and those that just read a gauge. You make your own call.

I have no doubt that Barnes runs each of their loads through a test barrel. The fact is “things happen”. Barnes has pulled several loads from the current manual. I am not suggesting that they are any more “reckless” than any other manufacturer. On the contrary, at least you can easily find the updates on-line. I suggest that ALL load manuals have errors – I just prefer not to find them in my gun.

As you can tell some in the industry use QL – some don’t.

From the developer of QL:

‘Even Accurate seems to change the manufacturer of their powders (formerly from Czech Rep.) to different origins. So the powders will be different, because they cannot manufacture equal types -they have to mix the powders to obtain the old specs.

To my knowledge, Barnes is testing the loads in rifles equipped with the Oehler Ballistc Lab. strain gage system. This allows no direct pressure reading, only comparison with reference loads with well known pressure curves.

75000 psi will not (always) exhibit high pressure signs. When you browse QL manual, page 114+115, I put some pictures of proof load case heads. They have been pressure tested before and their pessures are well known. With proper=small headspace there are minimal flattend primers. With weak brass primer can be popped.

You should try to email to ballistic lab guy of Accurate’

From Barnes Ballistician:

‘Powders will vary from lot to lot by as much as 3%. Not to mention all the other variables such as chamber dimensions, brass thickness and seating depth or distance from the lands. That is why every manufacturer suggests a 10% reduction from the max charges, starting low and working the load up as is customary in the reloading process.

There are also anomalies that we can't explain. You'd think that one more grain will give another 50fps as it had done for the last three 1 grain increases but sometimes pressure spikes and the velocity goes down. These are the type of things that Quickload can't predict.

The AA 2230 powder we use is the same stuff you get. We don't get a special lot from the manufacturer

I'd contend that our data is if anything a bit conservative. We use some of the tightest SAAMI spec barrels to simulate a worst case scenario.

Velocity is a good indicator of the best powder for a given scenario. And because AA2230 gives the highest velocity and best fills the available space (load density) with several bullets weights in the 338 Federal, I'd suggest it is one of the best choices.

So you see, just when I think I have it figured out I learn something new that just can't be calculated. We must test and go with actual data.’

From Western Powders Ballistician:

‘The only TSX bullet we actually tested was the 185grain. (Our measured data indicates 45.5grains vs 49.0grains of Barnes).
So it its higher than our test. However, I do not think it will be a serious increase in pressure that will cause problems. Calibers such as these tend to form a plateau (point of diminishing returns) in performance, and can actually at some point deliver reduced performance if more powder is added.
The issue with large expansion ratio calibers such as the 338Federal is that because of the high loading densities, a condition we call “premature shot start” occurs, which is very difficult to simulate. This “effect” can be amplified because of the reduced bearing surfaces (such as the TSX design) or special slippery coatings applied to some bullets.
Because the projectile moved away at a much earlier stage than normal, the effect is that the dynamics is “skewed” producing lower pressures because of a larger initial combustion volume.
Also the Freebore/leade dimensions of the barrel will be even more critical in such a case.
You can come close in QL by changing the shot start pressure to Zero and usually adding extra cc’s in case capacity to simulate the effects.
In such a case, it will important to measure the actual velocity, and adjust QL to suit the velocity value. The resultant pressure of QL pressure will be very close to the actual pressure.’
_________________________
"Do you want it "Right", or "Right now"? - always a good question.

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#3542179 - 12/05/09 Re: QuickLOAD Barnes TSX/TTSX and Accurate Powders? [Re: Salmotrutta]
Dutch Offline
Campfire Guide

Registered: 01/28/02
Posts: 4420
Loc: Pocatello
The last couple of my trials with the .358Win matched QL much closer after I ran the finished rounds through a factory crimp die. Accuracy improved, as well.

Given the explanation of the Western Powders Ballistician, it seems that even a blind squirrel finds an acorn, once in a while (with me being the blind squirrel, not the other way around). FWIW, Dutch.
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#3542289 - 12/05/09 Re: QuickLOAD Barnes TSX/TTSX and Accurate Powders? [Re: Dutch]
oldman1942 Offline
Campfire Ranger

Registered: 09/15/09
Posts: 4901
Loc: WY & FL
All very interesting but, good old IMR 4198 is still the best powder in the 338 Federal with 185 TSXs and in the 358 with 200 TSXs.
When rifles that "should not" (superlight Kimber 84s and Savage 99s) will shoot sub MOA groups at or better than factory velocity, I fail to see why chasing around the reloading room, for the holy grail, when I could be out shooting, is a good use of my time. (4198 is also top dog in the 300 Savage with 130 TTSXs and the 222 Rem with any 50-55 grainer)

The only powder that I cannot equal or better any rifle load with using IMR powders (considering all factors) is H869 in my 22-06 or 244 H&H.(and I don't have to use my RCBS electronic dispenser/scale)

Nothing you kill will care what some ballistics software said about it. Been loading from powder makers data for 52 years and still have all my parts and guns intact.

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#3721509 - 01/26/10 Re: QuickLOAD Barnes TSX/TTSX and Accurate Powders? [Re: oldman1942]
eh76 Offline
Campfire Oracle

Registered: 12/17/06
Posts: 52674
Loc: North of Liberalism in Wyoming
Originally Posted By: oldman1942
What part of pick up the fing phone did you miss? It's an 800 number even!

Sounds like AA powder data is suspect, but why bother anyway?

If I can't do it with IMR, WRA or Hodgdon, I guess it can't be done.

BTW if you don't like the Barnes Book's data, then toss it in the garbage and switch to Sierra or Hornady... I'm sure they use Quickload rather than their own research facilities.... LMAO!


Using your people skills again I see Larry....
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