Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Single Shots Ballard Rifle Co. MI opinions? experience? repairs?

Beautiful rifle with impecable workmanship bought from Thad Scott ANIB in 2007.


It is a 300 H&H and has already been back once for a "free" repair of the non functioning extractor that cost me $250.00.

Unlike the Ruger or Browning Highwalls with their powerful spring loaded extractor/ejectors that handle rimless cartridges with ease OR the original Highwalls designed around rimmed cartridges, this is an imperfect hybrid.
The system works like an original highwall BUT it has to drop below the belt and rim to allow chambering and then rise up to extract the empty. The actual extractor is also very small.
Only a reload sized in an undersized die and loaded to 308 level will sometimes extract. Any brand of factory ammo requires repeated yanking on the lever and frequently a cleaning rod.
It is going back again (another $150 in shipping and insurance). The same rifle optioned as mine is would be $6K+ today, I think it should work!
IMO, given the extractor design, the order should have never been accepted in 300 H&H, rather 300 Flanged with a much larger old style Highwall extractor.
Rather frustrating and sad when my 25-06 Browning Highwall has digested and ejected over 1000 round w/o a hitch.
Just curious on your ideas and or experiences. Thanks.

I have a lot of experince with Ballard going back to BEFORE the cody company even built Highwalls in 1998. That was back when Steve Garbe was running it. I supplied them with some walnut blanks back then. They sure have strayed far from their origional business model and I don't believe it did them one bit of good.


I also have a relationship with owing and restocking both origional and replica 1885 Highwalls that goes back to the 1970's.

As much as I love 1885 high and low wall rifles, they are a poor rifle to attempt to make into a modern sporter from. I don't care who does the work or how much it costs. Some of it is mechanical but a lot of it is feel and asthetics.

First of all, the extraction issue you mentioned.

Secondly the tang angles are too low to make a high combed stock that looks right or feel "right" on the gun. They are not as bad as Rolling blocks or Hepburns, but every time I a "modern" stocked version of an origional pattern 1885 I cringe because that is not how the gun was designed to be stocked 125 years ago.

That is ONE advantage of the modern Miroku made 1885 rifles. They have short tangs than one can built a straight, high combed classic stock on that does not look weird..

Having said all that, I think Ballard REALLY screwed the pooch up when they started raising their prices to absolutely SILLY levels and making the "Express" type rifles for the SCI crowd.. They got away from their orgional business plan which was to make good Ballard and 1885 BPCR /smokless replicas at $2,000- $3,000.

Their current level of service from the MI firm SUCKS and I would not touch a recently made Ballard with a ten foot pole. Too many people getting raped on correcting problems that the Ballard company should have made good on as part of any good warrantee. That has come from many differnt Ballard owners who have dealt with the recent MI firm for serive issues.

IMHO $5,000+++ is better spent on a COUPLE of new 1874, 1875, 1877 Sharps or 1885 rifles from either Shiloh or C sharps in MT.

Excellent post, Jim. You obviously know the single shot business.

Ballard certainly fills a niche with their manufacture of authentic Ballard and Winchester actions. (The latter sometimes referred to as "Ballwalls" by the single shot crowd). They have always been high priced, but it seems that the most recent iterations have gone stratospheric. If they have buyers at those prices, I guess the market works. For that kind of money, or less, there are other sources for building a custom single shot, the cost depending on how fancy you want to make it. Finding an action can be tricky, but C. Sharps high wall actions cost just over $1000, with their completed rifles proportional.

Your comparison of the Ballards and the Browning/Winchester replicas is interesting and useful as well. Your explanation as to why the originals are not well suited to chambering for rimless cartridges, and the difficulty of stocking them in modern configurations, should be a wake-up call.

Thanks for posting.

Paul

Some years ago, Cabelas was carring these, I tried to buy one in 7x57, but on several attemps to get dummy rounds to work,I gave up,as I did on a Dakota 10. I see they no longer carry them.I agree they should have stuck to the rimmed case guns....

Speaking of the Single shot business..

It is interesting..

Of the seven US companies building high quality Falling block single shots in the last 10 years-

Shiloh, C Sharps, Meacham Tool and die, CPA- Shuttleworth,Ballard Rifle , Dakota and Miller -

it is only ONLY the ones who raised their prices into the stratisphere and had poor/ineffiecent managment have have done poorly- Ballard, Dakota and Miller which sold out-litterally and figuratively- to Dakota Arms.

Shiloh, C Sharps, Meacham and CPA are NOT management top heavy and have only modestly increased their prices to cover inflation...

They are chuggin' along quite well. I can't say the same for the greedy "Neiman Marcus" types...

I note that all of those focus on traditional chamberings, and don't try to compete with Ruger, T/C, etc.

Paul

Agree with above posters. I have seen Ballard Hiwall rifles made in Montana and loved, (but could not afford) them. IMO, the C.Sharps 1885s are a better buy, 'tho, if you just gotta have a Hiwall.
My new C.Sharps .44-40 is the nuts; beautiful and shoots. I am having a hard time not buying another in .22LR now that they have a discount on December orders......

These guns 1) weren't designed for scopes, and 2) weren't designed for rimless ctgs, and ESPECIALLY for big-ass belted magnums. They can be adapted for scopes without too much hassle, but you need to tailor the scope to the rifle, and that limits your choices quite a bit. Hiwalls WERE made in rimless ctgs., but they were very limited runs for special (Olympic) use and as prototypes or for ctg. test "mules." If they ever made any for belted ctgs., they were experimental only or for mules to test ctgs. when Winchester was in the ctg. biz.

They are strong enough for belted mags, but nothing else about them is "right" for such usage. You need to look at a Miroku 1878 or 1885 ("Browning" or " Winchester") to see the many changes that need to be made to adapt a true Hiwall to be a modern sporter that uses modern ctgs. And then you wonder why anyone bothers--like a .405 Win can't handle big stuff? Or a .219 can't shoot varmints? Or a .30-40 can't do it all?

All that said, I think the 1885 design is at least as popular now as it was when Winchester (NOT Miroku) was making them. Back THEN it was mostly either a specialty (BIG game or serious target shooting) gun, or was bought because it was significantly cheaper than a Winchester repeater (most of our forbears could buy 5 years worth of ammo for the difference in price). NOW it is bought for its own undoubted virtues, and more-or-less, "money be damned"!

I wish I knew how many 1885s have been made since Winchester stopped making them. My C.Sharps (made in summer of '09) has a serial number in the high '800s, so I guess that they have made less than a thousand since they began production (some of them were apparently sold with special "requested" serial numbers as is C.Sharps' practice). I would also GUESS that more have been made overseas by Miroku and Uberti than made in the US, if you consider the foriegn models real Hiwalls (I guess I do, they certainly preserve the basic concepts--what do you think? Are they Hiwalls, or not?).

Oh heck, Mike, did you have to open that can of worms?

I really don't care that much, but a lot of folks out there apparently do.

Paul

Actually, the Mirokou made High walls are High walls in that the major functioning parts are the same basic design..

Due the screwed up mess of a laywer porrof trigger, they really don't take down like real High walls(which is a pain) but other than that, they are the same basic design..

Actually, the Japanese actions are actually configured like the orgional Browning Brothers pre 1885 Winchester design in that they only have an upper tang...

The best thing about the Jap made Browning and Winchester High walls is the price to performance ratio- about $800 to $1,200 in most models, they function well and are damn accurate. They have always been a good value for the dollar spent,IMHO.

To my way of thinking the best of the "new" 1885s are the Browning Winchester BPCRs with Badger barrels. That alone puts them at the head of their class. They have nice stocks too. The triggers leave a lot to be desired, but can be tuned/modified to a very nice single pull. A better out-of-the-box trigger or a really good aftermarket trigger would have been the icing on the cake.

I'm not a bean counter for any gun manufacturer, nor have I played one on TV, but I'm thinking that producing a factory rifle with a barrel by a known and respected maker, would give instant credibility with a signifcant segment of the market.

Paul

Okay, all, thanks for the enlightening on Ballard.

Now the question is, IS there a smith out there who can fix it? OR is the design so faulty that I'd be better off to have the barrel set back, a traditional Highwall extractor made and rechamber to 300 Flanged?

OR what about a bigger traditional extractor that grabs the belt rather than fing around with the fragile, small rim? Could this be done/work?

Any help, names of folks who "can do" would be appreciated. thanks!

There are several good single shot gunsmiths out there, but the ones I am most familiar with work mostly with traditional or BP cartridge chamberings, and might or might not want to mess with a chambering like yours in a high wall. Just speculating.

Off the top of my head, I would suggest that you contact Dan Zimmerman of DZ Arms. I believe he has crossed over from modern rifles to the more traditional, and among the things he makes and sells are parts for the 1885. If he can't help you directly, he might be able to refer you to somebody who can.

www.hepman.com

Good luck.

Paul

Personally,unless yhou just LOVE the thing or are into it for so much $$ you can't recoup your investment out of it, I would sell it if it does not function well in it's current form.


Setting the barrel back will NOT just require the barrel work obviously. The rear scope base and forend will also have to be trimmed at the very back to make up for the shortened barrel shank. If it is a flat spring action, the spring seat on the barrel will have to be moved/ altered as well. The total tab for any barrel setback to that gun will run $350- $500 deending on the exact details of the job and who does the work.

The cheapest route for a fix would be to-

Send it to a REAL 1885 ace metal smith to see if they can work up a reliable extractor for you with the extisting barrel. Dan Zimmerman is a good choice to start with he certainly has the equipment on hand and has actually built contract parts for Ballard Rifle when they were in Cody. He may know the secret to your plight.. Another one who may have good insights would be Ed Weber in MT.

Also, the former gunsmiths up in Cody who used to work for Ballard.

I would try ANY of them first if the folks who own Ballard in MI currently are going to charge you to correct something he should warrantee for free anyway..

Also, double check the pressure of the loads you are running in the rifle.. Do you think excess head expansion in the web area could be the culprit and causing the poor ejection??

No matter WHAT you do to ANY falling blaock single shot, it will ALWAYS lack the camming action of a bolt action for cartridge extraction. It was a problem with the designs in the 1870's and remains so today unless the ammo you feed it cooperates fully..

Why not simply rebarrel it to something that it was more or less designed to use? A 375 flanged for example. A rimless cartridge in a highwall is sort of like a copper jacketed bullets in a flintlock.

And yet, the Browning B-78s ,1885s as well as the later Wincheter versions seem to digest and eject smokeless rounds just fine..?? And have been doing it since 1972 in tens of thousands of guns?

I have owned a dozen of those guns in smokeless rimless calibers over the years. and the Miroku made guns always have ejected with out a hitch. Even with hot loads..

Countless of custom gunsmiths have done the same with orgional Winchester 1885 rifles over the years as well by simply putting in the proper ejector design.

I say the real cuplprit is a poor ejector design by Ballard for rimless rounds couple with NO real fix by the current owners.

If they BUILT the gun with that chambering it should darn well function properly.

Any rebarrel SHOULD be done by Ballard, not the poor slob who has a $5,000 rifle that won't even eject cases..

Well the poor slob only paid about 70% of what a MI Ballard would cost and the Cody ones were far better. What they SHOULD do and what they will might not match up.

So if it ends up a 300 Flanged I can live with it as I'll have the only one since real Jeffery's Sharps were built. (on imported WRA High Wall actions)

The Talley rib is screwed on so moving it is no big deal, a bit of trimming the back end.

But I still have not heard much about YOUR experience with Ballard Rifle Co.

Insofar as loads, when 4 brands of factory ammo all act the same....well.

Oldman..

I am glad you are not into the Ballard for Current retail.The fact remains you have a very expensive rifle that does not even function as well as a used $800 1885 Browning High wall.That was my point.

I had a rifle built by Ballard in the 2001 era... You are right, the Cody Ballards were better. Even though the Cody Ballards were not perfect, but at least they would make things rigth when confronted with a warrantee repair.

I know of at least three other 1885 Ballard clients who have have various mechanical problems (mostly trigger and ejection problems)with Ballard High Wall rifles and who have tried to get them serviced at the current shop in MI. They have been forced to pay several hundred $$ for warrantee work that should have been done for free . Even after paying for it, wiating a LONG time to get their rifles back,the work was not done correctly. In each case, they had get other 'smiths to fix problems that the Ballard co should have made right.

And so it goes...

I wish you luck getting your gun fixed...

My very limited perspective on Ballard.

A few years ago I decided I wanted a really excellent .22 low wall. This was before the current financial crunch, at a time when I might have been able to scrounge up the money. I was being egged on by a couple of shooting buddies who love to spend others peoples' money. This was when Ballard was still in Montana, just before the move. I went so far as to discuss the project with a couple of the Ballard staff.

The point of all this is that the main thing that caused me to hesistate was nagging memories of others who had had problems with their Ballards. Then the company moved, and I wasn't about to take a chance on a company in transition. Then they raised their already high prices, and my finances took a downturn along with the economy, so it was all moot.

For the life of me I can't understand why a small company offering a high end product, and seemingly in control of its own affairs, can do anything but give customers an impeccable product and service. Anything else would seem like shooting themselves in both feet, but we see it all the time in the firearms business.

Makes no sense to me. None at all.

Paul

Well I have talked to several real experts including a former Ballard employee who was there when the gun was built. "No falling block single shot should ever be built in a belted magnum."

Ballard MI appears to have a terrible rep for customer handling as well as having lost most of the best who stayed in Cody.

Mine is going back to Cody to get a new extractor in the old Highwall style, barrel set back and rechambered to 300 H&H Flanged
(the double rifle version of the 300 H&H)
Est cost +-$500, well worth it to have it right and probably one of the few Highwall 300 Flanged that exist.

While I admire Browning High Walls (own 2), comparing the quality of materials, fit and finish of this rifle to a Browning is like putting a 330 GTS against a ZO 6. It's only issue is a single piece of dumb engineering that can be fixed as if it never happened.

Well Oldman,

As modern stocked Highwalls go, you have a handsome rifle there and I certainly wish you luck getting her to shoot to your expectations..

Keep us posted on who does the work and how it turns out..