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---- M-14 and M-21 rifles --------------------
GeneL,
Your memory is 100% correct.
Most snipers and sharpshooters used an M-14 (if it was really accurate, and some are sub .5 MOA out of the box), but usually the heavy barrel M-21. Some of those later used a wood stock with a high buttlplate, like the FN-FAL, and a pistol grip.The bolt actions mostly used the Redfield 3-9x40 sight, with the Accu-Trak range-finding reticle. Most of the M-21s used the Leatherwood 3-9x40 ART range-finding scope. But there were M-21s with Redfield scopes, and bolt action rifles with Leatherwood scopes. I still own one of these M-21s, and will take some photos of it up close. I have photos of the scoped M-14 and M-21s in action, and can post those. Some I need to scan.
The M-21 snipers usually worked in 2-man teams in the Army or Marine Corps. The second man, who was doing spotting with a high-power glass and binoculars, carried a bolt action rifle. A lighter rifle is better when carrying that other gear.
The M-21 barrel was stout enough to support the Sionics suppressor, supplied by CIA operator Mitch Werbel.
The M-14 could not shoot the high pressure (65,000 PSI) M-60 ammunition which was most accurate and had the greatest reach, which is another reason for the bolt-action rifles. (See my previous post on the history of the 172/173/175 grain ammunition for both the .30-06 and .308 Winchester).
I still have some of the white box 7.62x51mm NATO ammunition, as well as the machine gun ammunition issued to snipers. Will snap some photos of that stuff, too, and probably put it in the ammunition thread. 1. The M21 did not have a heavy barrel. 2. The high buttplate stock with the pistol grip was used to abate the recoil somewhat so the platform could be used as a squad automatic rifle, not because it was more accurate. 3. M60 ammo is M80 Ball that has been linked, the same stuff used to qualify with when the M14 was first issued. I know the 2 gentlemen that worked on the project XM21 in Vietnam. Where you got your info, I don't know, but it's mostly wrong. Sorry.
Last edited by rgrx1276; 12/19/09. Reason: bold type
When people face the possibility of freezing or starving there is little chance they are going to listen to unfounded claims of climate doomsday from a bunch of ultra-rich yacht sailing private jet-setting carbon-spewing hypocrite elites
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1. The XM21 was a heavy barrel match M-14 rifle built by Rock Island Arsenal for the military. They originally build about 1,400 of them for use in Vietnam. In 1971, it became the M21, and was the primary US Army sniper rifle until 1988.
2. The M14E2 and XM21E2 rifle had the E2 walnut stock with a high butt, dropped comb and pistol grip. It was originally developed to give better recoil control in fully automatic fire, either without the heavy bipod of with one.
3. The ammunition loaded for the M60 machine gun was a larger diameter, .3086, to give good accuracy as the barrel heated and the bore diameter increased during sustained firing. It operates at 65,000 PSI, and was found to give excellent long range accuracy in the match bolt rifles of the 1960s, so it was issued to snipers for their bolt actions.
This is essentially the same 9-degree boattail FMJ bullet developed for the 1919 Browning machine gun in 1926, and used in the 1903A3 and 1903A4 sniper rifles of World War II.
You may be confused about the M80 ball ammunition because the standard M60 proof load for 7.62 NATO ammo had 41 grains of IMR-4475 behind a 172-gr. match-grade bullet producing 67,500 PSI. The same load was used in the M80 ball ammo but had the 148-gr. standard service bullet which produced 50,000 PSI.
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No boy, I'm not confused, you are.
When people face the possibility of freezing or starving there is little chance they are going to listen to unfounded claims of climate doomsday from a bunch of ultra-rich yacht sailing private jet-setting carbon-spewing hypocrite elites
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3. The ammunition loaded for the M60 machine gun was a larger diameter, .3086, to give good accuracy as the barrel heated and the bore diameter increased during sustained firing. It operates at 65,000 PSI, and was found to give excellent long range accuracy in the match bolt rifles of the 1960s, so it was issued to snipers for their bolt actions. Oh yeah. I forgot about the match grade machine gun ammo.... Those machine guns are designed for pinpoint accuracy, and require some highly accurate, mass produced by the millions, bullets...
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Lee-
You can find a TON of info on Google.
The difference is in knowing what is accurate, and what is posted by some hack.
You haven't made it to that stage yet.....
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If I was at home, I would send a photo of a REAL M21. Anyway, good luck with your realities, whatever they are.
When people face the possibility of freezing or starving there is little chance they are going to listen to unfounded claims of climate doomsday from a bunch of ultra-rich yacht sailing private jet-setting carbon-spewing hypocrite elites
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Don't worry, rgrx1276, I am going to post photos of real XM-21s, M-21s, and my M-21, later this weekend.
I don't know where you got your erroneous information about items 1,2,3 above, but I got mine personally by handling all these weapons, and talking with other officers who used various things, as well as three close friends who were armorers and snipers from 1936, through USMC Pacific Theater, Korea, and Vietnam. Two of them (US Army) are still around, so they can fill in a lot little details for me.
I also visit the military museums, and use the official papers of the various branches, to learn more, and to back up what I say to uninformed skeptics. As I found with my very first posts here, even the direct quotes and citations from USMC sniper development documents would not raise an apology from the web trolls who had called me names.
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---- .30 caliber machine gun bullets and ammunition -----------
REPOST from other thread:
The military began using the Sierra 168-grain HPBT Matchking in target competition in 1959, but did not authorize the use of it or the 175-grain HPBT Match bullets for military deployment in peace time or war, until 1980.
Military match shooters had been using the 172-gr FMJ-BT bullets in the 1903 Springfield since 1926. It was used in World War II and Korea. This carried over from the .30-06 to the 7.52x51mm sniper rounds with the use of the M-60 machine gun ammunition.
The 172-gr FMJ BT ammunition for the M-60 machine gun is larger diameter than the standard 145 to 148-gr M80 ball bullets. It was loaded with IMR-4475 behind a 172-gr match-grade FMJ-BT bullet and produced 67,500 psi in a bolt action M-24 or M-40 rifle, or a match M-14 or M-21, which have a tighter bore than the machine gun. This is really way too hot for an M-14 or a .308 Garand. Accuracy is as good as any 168-gr Match ammunition, has more reach, and it was shot in matches from 200 to 1,000 yards, as well as in combat.
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Well number 1, I have used a REAL M21. My guess is you haven't.
How is that for starters? But whatever.
# 2 Machine gun ammo the most accurate? Damn I didn't know that, it must not have been available to me or any team members.
I've shot enough Match, Special Ball, and regular ball to fill several decent sized bins, but I guess you having been to all these, events, where all this knowledge was dispensed puts me in awe of all you know to be fact, and my EXPERIENCE must be flawed.
I actually had the misfortune of carrying the M14 SAW back in ranger school. I didn't realize that I had a match grade sniper rifle in my hands at the time.
Oh well, good luck.
When people face the possibility of freezing or starving there is little chance they are going to listen to unfounded claims of climate doomsday from a bunch of ultra-rich yacht sailing private jet-setting carbon-spewing hypocrite elites
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It was all 168 gr. LC Match for us. It wasn't hollow point, was boat tail, and ten or twelve years before Lee24's claimed date of 1980.
I don't see why linked MG ammo couldn't be used in an emergency. I thought it was the same 150 gr. bullets regular ball, just linked. It would probably not be match accurate. If you look at an ordnance table for 7.62 NATO ammo, I don't think you'll find any difference in the rounds themselves.
It was pretty easy to bend an operating rod with hot ammo in a M 14, or an M1 for that matter. Which makes me believe it all had the same pressure. The idea of stronger and longer machine gun ammo came out of WW I because of the tactics used there to put plunging fire on an enemy you could see 2000 yards away. AFter WW II, the concept was pretty much dropped.
Rgrx, by the M 14 SAW, I assume you were toting that heavy bastard "Automatic Rifle" with the pistol grip and the bipod. An M 14 that looked like it had "went tactical." I humped one for a while, but not in Ranger school. I shot one in a live fire exercize, and it was accurate, or I was lucky. I was hitting the aperature of a bunker at 700 yards with it, using tracer ammo.
Last edited by Gene L; 12/19/09.
Not many problems you can't fix
With a 1911 and a 30-06
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Ive shot out of an M14 Match rifle and an M1A lots of different ammo. 173gr FMJBT Match white box ammo, 168 SMK White box match, 173gr FMJBT Brown Box Special Ball, 175gr SMK M118 LR and M80 Ball. The best Ive seen was 168 white box match, but the occasional lot of Special ball would do close to 1 MOA.
M80 Ball would do about 3 MOA. At 700 yards that would equate to approximately a 21" group as far as mechanical accuracy is concerned. Plenty good enough for a bunker, meybe not so good for pinpoint accuracy.
I've shot my personal M1A at 1000 yards at Ft Gordon and won a couple matches with it, but don't consider them to be good 1000 yard guns. I have also heard that you could bend the op rod, but I've never seen it, even when you would hear of some knucklehead using 4350 and 190's or some such foolishness.
When people face the possibility of freezing or starving there is little chance they are going to listen to unfounded claims of climate doomsday from a bunch of ultra-rich yacht sailing private jet-setting carbon-spewing hypocrite elites
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Yes, the M14E2 with pistol grip and long sling for waist-level carry was a "bastard", for sure. Not an FN MAG, not a BAR.
I looked up the official US Army records.
The orginal XM-21 order to Rock Island Arsenal in 1969 was for 1,435 match grade M-14s.
Weight was 11.3 to 11.6 lbs.
An M-14 or M1-A with a heavy barrel and oversized stock weighs 11.25 lbs.
A standard match grade M-14 or M1-A with walnut stock weighs 9.8 lbs.
An M-14 or M1-A with standard USGI walnut stock and barrel weighs 9.3 lbs. All of mine, Winchester and Harrington-Richardson, weighed 9.25 empty, with the magazine.
Standard ammunition is a lot less powerful than the 172-gr M60 ammunition at 65,000 CUP.
wt bullet powder chg CUP FPS
173 (M118) 42.0 4895 50,000 2580
168 (M852) 42.2 4895 51,000 2580
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Lee24.................... the gift that keeps on giving...
Bet he's a brain surgeon also, cause he read about one AND spent a night at the Holiday Inn.
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3. The ammunition loaded for the M60 machine gun was a larger diameter, .3086, to give good accuracy as the barrel heated and the bore diameter increased during sustained firing. It operates at 65,000 PSI, and was found to give excellent long range accuracy in the match bolt rifles of the 1960s, so it was issued to snipers for their bolt actions.
This is essentially the same 9-degree boattail FMJ bullet developed for the 1919 Browning machine gun in 1926, and used in the 1903A3 and 1903A4 sniper rifles of World War II....
Standard ammunition is a lot less powerful than the 172-gr M60 ammunition at 65,000 CUP. Now I'm curious...what is the nomenclature of this round? ie. what does the DoD call it?
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M 60 ammo I'm familiar with used 150 gr. bullets. Actually, 146 gr. bullets.
The M 118 ammo was for snipers. The designation "M 60" for ammo is a pressure round and not to be used in the M 60 machine gun. Or any gun, except a pressure chamber. Hey, I can google, too.
Last edited by Gene L; 12/19/09.
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Most M60 machine gun ammunition was 146-gr M80 ball, 146-gr M62 tracer, or 150.5-gr M61 AP. There was originally the M60 HPT 172-gr ammunition for the machine gun.
The 172-gr M1 ball was developed for the Browning 1919 machinegun in .30-06. When the M60 was originally developed, it was in .30-06. I will post of a photo of one, the TE-162, linked up with this 172-gr ammunition.
The 172-gr carried over to the M60 in 7.62x51mm as the 171.5-gr M60 HPT (HP = high pressure, not "hollow point"), charged with IMR-4475 powder at 67,500 PSI proof pressure. Since the original .30-06 M1 172-gr ball was minimum 2,640 FPS from a bolt action rifle, that was the spec for the combat issue M60 equivalent. Since that is too much pressure for the Garand, it was also too much pressure for the M-14.
The 172-gr M118 Special Ball was the boxed match ammunition loaded with WC-846 or IMR-4895 at 50,000 PSI and 2,640 FPS.
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While you're posting photos, why not throw in one of your SC .375?
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The Lake City M118 7.62mm NATO Match that I have says 173 grs., Velocity 2550.[white box] The powder was changed out and the bullets to the 168 sierra hpbt. These were given to Me by a friend, Who used to shoot High Power. He called them "Mexican Match".
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While you're posting photos, why not throw in one of your SC .375? ![[Linked Image]](http://i560.photobucket.com/albums/ss45/thmsbrownlee/24HRC/retardedmedic-1-1.jpg)  Stole it from ND.......  Ingwe
"...the left considers you vermin, and they'll kill you given the chance..." Bristoe
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M60 HPT ammo is "High Pressure Test". I've not seen or heard of it issued to the fleet or leg army ever. Google's getting you in trouble.
Btw, since this is the rifle thread, do you think you could post a pic or source of the Wood stocked, M24 Commemorative that you said Remington released recently. I'd like to get one.
Last edited by ChrisF; 12/19/09.
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