Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Africa .458 Win in Africa??

If you want 2350fps in a properly weighted rifle, the .460 is still on the shelf and has 51 years of positive references by people who own one. I said that deliberately, as I never met a .460 expert who owned one. Also met a lot that never shot one.

2350fps is a lot of horsepower.

The reason many people are saying that the .458 Lott is only capable of around 2250 fps with a 500-grain bullet is that once it became a factory round it was actually pressure-tested.
It was found that most handload formulas that gave 2300+ fps were well over what is generally considered "normal" pressures today.

This isn't unusual when any wildcat becomes a factory round. When the 7mm STW was THE hot-shot wildcat, most people (inclouding Layne Simpson) reported muzzle velocities of at least 3500 fps and often 3600 with 140-grain bullets "without any sign of high pressure." When Remington adopted it and started testing handloads, they found that almost all produced 70,000 psi or even more. Which is why no 7mm STW 140-grain factory load has ever been listed at over 3400 fps.

If the .458 Lott has a powder capacity advantage of 15% over the .458 Winchester, then the laws of internal ballistics would indicate about a 4% advantage in muzzle velocity for the Lott AT THE SAME PRESSURE. If the .458 Winchester is capable of 2150 with a 500-grain bullet, then the Lott would be capable of about 2236 fps--again, at the same pressure.

Of course, a lot more velocitu is possible when loading to 70,000 psi or more. Luckily, modern rifles can take a lot of pressure, one reason so many enthusiastic wildcatters still have all their fingers.

So ostensibly a Lott is a 100 or so gain over the WM given reasonable pressures? Hell, given those parameters I'll take the WM anyday then given the shorter ation. For the record I don't care for either one. The Dakota, Rigby and Weatherby being far superior in both velocity AND less feeding problems and none of them ever in a double. jorge

Will they apply special powders etc however to boost the 458Lott? Once a factory load (Norma I believe)... what will the 416Taylor be held at as it's another one that has been said to be overloaded to achieve 2400fps. If it only gives 2200fps ... would it prove popular or wither on the vine?
Cheers...
Con

One thing that Phil Shoemaker has pointed out is that when the Lott became legit at SAAMI the specs given it resulted in a much shorter throat than Jack's original and other customs based on his.

Bob

www.bigbores.ca

I would be interested in what the real pressures would be with 83 and 84 grs. of IMR-4320 as I am sure the factory didn't use that powder.

Like most, I do not have pressure testing equipment, and can only go by the usual tell tale signs, but that has kept me in one piece for many years now..With those loads I got 2350 FPS (albiet I always used a 26 inch barrel) and the primers, were good, no extractor marks, no sticky bolt lift, reloaded a single case 10 times, with 3 trims, according to my files. That indicates to me that I was not working at 70,000 PSI, but like I said, I have no other means of testing with any of my rifles. Also in this conversation, one must allow that the 458 Win. boys are operating at high pressure also. sooooo?

I wish I would have sent those loads to Mike at Northfork. I got into a conversation with the 404 Jefferys wherein 95 grs. of IMR-4831 gave me 2653 FPS in my 27 inch original Jefferys, and the pressure thing was challanged...Mike did the testing, got 2590 FPS in his 24 inch test barrel and safe pressure. He allowed my loads were safe and with the additional 2 inches of barrel that I was in the ballpark...The recoil was intense, so I loaded them at 93 grs. for a bit over 2400 FPS for hunting, which I intended to do all the time.

Like most, we can only play with what we have to work with. I feel the 458 Lotts that I played with were safe, at least I hope they were and I shot that load quite a bit without any problems.. I used magnum acitons on my Lotts and though I don't recall offhand I strongly suspect I have long throats so as to seat the bullets out to match the magazines. that in itself would releave a good deal of pressure.

Anyway I submit the above for what its worth..I don't shoot either the 458 Win or the Lott as I went to the 40 calibers almost exclusively some years ago, as I have bursitas in my neck and shoulders from shooting those big kickers. The 416s are about my limit these days. Age and caliber are definatly related

Additionally by way of edit, I would like to add that adding 100 FPS in a big bore caliber is very sugnificant. Adding a 100 FPS to a 458 Win. makes it a considerably better killer and if pressure was OK then none of the conflab would have ever come about...

You cannot apply the same set of rules to a big bore that you can to a high velocity magnum..100 FPS in a .270 or 300 whizbang means nothing, but in a 40 caliber with bullets of 400 grs. and up it means a lot and it gets more so as the bore size increases..add 100 FPS to a 577 or a 600 and your bicuspids will fly and the difference in killing effect can be observed.

Just joined and wow - heckuva good urination match here. I enjoyed it. I am far far less knowledgeable than you guys.

However, having just gotten my first big bore other than a .45-70, which is a CZ 550 safari mag in .458 WM rifle like some of you have, I have a quick question:

The purpose of this rifle is for a "someday-Africa" trip ONLY, and really only for nyati, though I might use it for eland as well. I have never stepped foot out of the USA, to give you an idea of my paucity of experience in world hunting.

The bullet I have selected for reloading is the 450 TSX (a 400 TSX would be absolutely perfect but alas is not made). I will likely use H335 as that is what I have on hand (but could be convinced to change if a good reason). My dark horse 2nd choice bullet is a 400 A-frame, but I think I'll go Barnes. (Don't suppose anyone considers the 350 TSX enough for dugga boys?)

My question is this: This bullet (the 450 TSX) has 4 crimping cannelures; which one should I crimp onto in order to take advantage of the longer action and freebore of this rifle (attaining at or near .458 Lott performance as some claim), while still keeping enough contact with the neck to hold the bullet straight - the 1st, 2nd, 3rd, or 4th cannelure? And, what is the "accepted standard" for counting these (from which end of the bullet) - do you count from the nose to tail, top to bottom (1,2,3,4), or bottom up (1,2,3,4) - so that we're communicating properly? And which cannelure would be the "standard" choice in other actions / traditionally, for traditional COL? So, please describe whether the cannelure you recommend using for max powder capacity in this rifle is "one cannelure away from," or "two away from" the standard - do you see what I'm asking? I can't measure anything because I haven't ordered my components yet, but note that Barnes recommends seating TSXs "between .030 and .070 off the lands" (which would be *what* COL with this bullet and this rifle's throat?).

Probably never shoot this beyond 75 yards, so don't need to attain more than 2,200, but I suppose it wouldn't hurt to go a bit more if this is possible. I guess I should be prepared for a shot at 100 yards if necessary on a buff, so I want to squeeze the most performance I can with zero pressure issues. Also, which is it: (1) the TSX needs 2000 I.V. but the TTSX needs 1800, or (2) the TSX needs 1800 but the TTSX needs 2000? I've seen it claimed both ways. That makes a BIG difference to me in how hot to load these. If it's 1800 with TSX, then I can make a downright pussycat load (2100 or less), which will please my retinas and other old body parts to no end.

Thanks.

One tiny unimportant sidebar: Prior owner of this rifle dispensed with the set trigger and installed a standard one, which I understand is recommended for DG and is fine by me - but how many of you experienced folks with BRNO 602s have actually done this? Does it really matter?

Hi Danny

Welcome to the 24 hour campfire and be warned, there are a lot of rude, impolite and even a few stupid folks that post here. Ignore them. Freedom is a quality that I for one treasure, and that means others have the right to be idiots and act rude. But you have as much right to ignore them as they do to fly their large "I'm stupid' flags.

Once you identify them it's quite easy to go around them and gain information and entertainment from the other 99% of the posters here, which can be a world of knowledge and information --------- available to you for nothing but the cost of some of your time.

Anyway, -------your CZ is a fine rifle and will serve you well.

The cartridge over-all length is easy enough to come up with because #1 is it likely posted in the Barnes Manual and it's on their web-site, shown as 3.340" . But remember The magazine dimension of your rifle will show you what you need. Crimp in the groove that allows you to load the gun. Pretty simple really. I would crimp where Barnes says and I am betting they are going to be right.

#2, I have owned the old CZ 602 and also the 550s. In big chamberings from the 416s and up, I'd agree with the previous owner of your rifle. the set trigger is not ever going to be wanted or needed. In a 375 or smaller it's not beyond the possibility of needed to take a 300 yard or longer shot some time, but for a 458, I see no game animal you'd shoot with it that is small enough to need that degree of precision, and such game is not far away from you.

Big and close are 2 things that preclude the practical use of a set trigger.
You'll never miss it and you'll never really want one in those conditions.

I never had the need to crimp the 458 except with lead bullets. Technically those grooves are driving bands or relief grooves not crimping grooves but they can accept a sort of roll crimp. I would treat yours like any other bullet work up. Find maximum cartridge length either touching the lands or maximum magazine length then seat minus .01". Then shoot for groups and seat deeper by .03" and test again and repeat with another setback etc.. Once you start to see a sweet spot you can fine tune the final COL. Or just start with the Barnes length and see how it shoots.

The scenarios that require crimping are heavily compressed loads where the powder can push the bullet forward and when you keep a full magazine and repeatedly only fire the top round after multiple shots there can be some battering and change in COL. I try to avoid both these scenarios if possible. But once you find the optimal COL then try crimped and un-crimped if the mouth of the case aligns with the grooves of the bullet. Uniformly trimmed cases help with crimping consistency but even with this I have not seen improved accuracy by crimping but other people claim it can improve accuracy. Many crimp just for peace of mind which I can appreciate. You should have minute of buffalo accuracy in just a couple of range sessions.

I would probably not use a 458 as a single gun battery due to the effects of cumulative recoil and the chance for a longer shot. But Elmer Kieth proved the 458 is capable of longer ranges if the shooter is. He would shoot his out to 600 yards on targets at least.

Agree with Szinh and he has more big bore experience than me or most others. Some like a two stage trigger on a dangerous game gun to help prevent a shot going off too soon when excited. Probably a good idea but a matter of preference. A set trigger could be trouble if accidentally set or if filled with grit. The closer to the original Mauser or the Model 70 the better in my opinion.

Oh, ok, I see. Very helpful. I thought these big boomers needed a taper crimp so as not to come unseated in the magazine under recoil. Well that makes it easy then. I'll just work off the lands (within reason). Thanks for the nice welcome.

Oh, no...not using a single gun battery. Planning on taking at least 3 rifles; maybe 4. In addition to this one, a .375 HH mag (with 270 non-premiums), a .30-06, and a 6.5x55. But can likely only afford ONE species that will require the .458, and so that will be buff since that is my primary goal, but if I hit the lotto, might take and eland as well. My non-premium 270s .375 would be marginal on eland, from what I've read, but plenty for slightly smaller critters like zebra, blue wildebeest, roan, kudu, waterbuck.

Danny;

You can read my blogs on this (CZ550 in .458 Win) if you want, but I owned the same rifle for a number of years. Crimp in the BOTTOM (near the base of the bullet) groove for a COL of 3.78" (longer than the Lott by .18". Therefore, you can exceed Lott ballistics if you want. Plus, you still have more "freebore" (leade) than the Lott. That's with the 500 TSX. The 450 TSX will give a COL of 3.68" -- still longer than the Lott at 3.6". That's a common procedure today.

Best powders are 2230, Tac, H335 and H4895. I mostly use H335 for the heavy weights. For the 350 TSX, it's H4198 in my current Ruger Tropical #1 .458 with a 24" barrel. Read my most recent results of this past week at :

www.bigbores.ca

Bob (You should also read on the .458 Win Mag at the AR forums, Big Bores - .458 Winchester Magnum, especially the last 1/2. Now at about 126 pages!!)

Great blog and info; thank you. Much appreciated.

One little aside that your blog reminds me of..... I had a CZ 550 FS in 9.3x62 for several years, right after they first came out, with a Burris Signature Series 1.5-6x42. This is the mannlicher / 20.5" one. Well like an idiot I traded it to a hunting buddy for a trailer back in Okla. So now for the past few years, I've been trying to talk that friend into selling it back to me at an inflated price - I thought I would be successful since he loves HSLD rounds (e.g. he has a rifle in 6.5-.300 RUM!). But he keeps resisting and says he'll think about it. Now, since not only has CZ discontinued the FS, they discontinued all 550s, I want it back even more. Needless to say, reading your blog about a brush gun is not helping my fever any. This friend is recovering from back surgery - I think I'll send him a get well soon card and gift to soften him up, ha ha.

There is an awful lot of speculating,pontificating and out right fabricating on this forum. As John and Jeff have pointed out, with equal pressures there is less than 100 fps differences between the WM and the Lott. And the ballisticians at Hornady, who actually measure such thing, tell me that with the same powders and pressures there is only 60 fps between the two !
But those of you who refuse to believe those facts, and are confident in your loads and the fact that bigger is always better, then by all means use the Lott if you think it is superior. But then why not simply get a 460 Weatherby if you think a lot of extra velocity is needed ?

That's about right for the top temp-stabilized powder (H4895 for both for 500gr).

The advantage to the Lott, to the extent that there is one, is that H4895 load is uncompressed, while it's slightly compressed in the WM. Whether you think that matters with stick powders is mostly a religious question - they don't fail in some hideous way just because they're compressed.

Pretty sure most airlines limit you to 2 rifles, some 3.

Tell you... I've shot the 458 Win Mag and the 450 Ackley.

Shot 'em okay - but I have to admit that's one level above what I enjoy shooting!

I enjoy shooting my 375, and shoot it well. But those doggone 45 cal rifles slinging 500 gr bullets... That's a step beyond my comfort zone.

Much respect for those who shoot 'em well and enjoy it.

Guy

Guy,

A .45 (or slightly larger or smaller) caliber of that power isn't all that bad--as long as the stock fits you reasonably well. Have shot quite a few, both at targets and game, and a .458 Lott isn't that bad IF it fits well. But fitting well depends very much on the stock. Most .458's (of whatever chambering) are set up to shoot both with a scope and iron sights, and unless both irons and scope are pretty close in height, recoil can be miserable when shooting with the scope. Have seen this over and over again in various larger-bore rifles, including the .375 H&H No. 1 you now own. I found the recoil without a scope gentler with same loads, even though the rifle weighed a pound less, because of stock-fit.

Which is why I had D'Arcy Echols put NECG express sights on my bolt-action .375 H&H that are just about as high as the scope in Talley detachable mounts--and then stocked it myself so the comb was the right height for both.

Same deal with larger cartridges, whether the .416s (or thereabouts), .45's, or 470's and .500's--though part of it is also weight. One of the most miserable rifles I've ever fired was a .470 NE double that only weighed 9 pounds--a 13-pound .600 NE was far more comfortable. But the one .458 Lott I've shot extensively fit me well with the express sights, and wasn't bad at all.

Cascade,you can load them down to a level that is comfortable. Then slowly work up to full power if you want. My .460 is loaded with a 500 grain bullet at 2300 fps and there is not one elephant or cape buffalo that will not notice the extra 300-400 fps that the .460 capable of.

Right now I'm going to work up a load in the .460 with the Speer 350 grain bullet. I'm hoping to get 2500-2600 fps with them and get busy on the rabbit population.

Check with gunner500, see what brand he's drinking and get you some...

DF

Thanks, mule deer and everyone. I will say that 10 rounds of my .375 HH and I'm pretty much done, so I may have made a mistake getting this one. We'll see. I weighed this CZ 550 and it's 9 lbs, 7.8 oz unloaded & no sling, but with scope/rings and with the brake that came with it (wearing a Leupold VX-1 Hog 1-4x20 at the moment).

As a silly sidebar, anyone think there's anything to this idea that Lehigh bullets somehow create a great permanent cavity without expanding from the nose / flute design? There's little doubt they'd penetrate enough, but I seriously doubt these claims about wound cavities being the equal or better than a traditional bullet or monometal. It would be cool but I'm sure fantasy if the same bullet / load could serve for both anti-materiel / HTI and African DG - such as the 305 all-brass "penetrator" one:

https://www.lehighdefense.com/index.php?_route_=all/458-xtreme-penetrator-305gr-bullet

.460 Wby mag on rabbits? Lol

P.S. Just found out that some countries allow 2 rifles, some 3, and some like SA allow 4...but as you say the airline may limit you to two. So which airlines allow 3? That's my question - I tried to look it up but can't find the answer - everything talks about the countries themselves but not the airlines.... I could narrow it to 3 pretty easily, but two would be tough. I don't want to use a .375 HH on a duiker any more than I'd want to use a .30-'06 on a kudu let's say. Sure you could, but it's far from ideal. I guess it's always tag / species-dependent in the end, of course, but my guess is I'll only be able to afford one trip in my lifetime, so want to make it count. I suppose if I could take 3 and only 3 rifles, AND was able to go after a wide variety of species, I'd take the 6.5x55, the .375HH (or a 9.3x62), and the .458 (leaving the .30-06 at home). Then I could "overkill" some stuff as needed with the .375 / 9.3, but still take it easy on my shoulder for the little gazelles up to bush pig & baboon with the 6.5x55 which is no slouch with a premium 142 or similar, the way I load them up.