Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Africa Here's a good one for the 45/70 crowd

I think I'm done here as obviously I'm not getting trough and it was never my intention to disparage the cartridge. Quite the opposite.

Logcutter, I don't know but I think I was pretty clear I thought the 45/70 was a good cartridge and I'm even ordering one myself. All I said there are better suited cartridges out there for DG, nothing more.

CZ;I can't much disagree with your post as I disagree on quite a few things with Craig. I also can't dispute the figures you quote out of that Ruger #1 but one thing I Do agree with Craig on is he tried a single shot with DG and he'd never do it again. As far as he being an expert, he might not be but my good friend Sharpsguy is and believe me he is and I learn a lot from him. Lastly, Having said that, I'll ask the same question again; if the 45/70 was such a great DG cartridge(and pictures don't mean a whole lot regarding this discussion, I can post just as many of Fred Bear with his long bow) why didn't it become popular in Africa during the 50s & 60s when all the Brit doubles were dead due to a lack of ammo? Surely that would have been a great time for the 45/70 to fill that void. NOBODY, not a single PH uses it in Africa and I've yet to hear from the 45/70 cultists as to why that is. Regarding penetration that seems to be at the crux of the matter and you answered your own question, the 45/70 only becomes adequate when it breaks 2000 fps and again nobody's addressed the 458WM's issues with poor penetration at below 1900 fps. The 45/70 #1 attains it only when pushed in excess of 2100 and you can't get that out of a lever or a Sharps.



I think I've walked a pretty fair middle ground in this discussion, even admitting I was WRONG about the 45/70, but to say the 45/70 is a DG cartridge on an equal footing with the 458s or other NE calibers is nonsense. jorge

You have sir..I agree also with the last part of your quote and always have.The Ruger #1 is rated at 50,000 CUP while the 458 SAAMI is 53,000 CUP.There is alot you can do with 50,000 CUP compared to 40,000 CUP of the leverguns but I would not want a single shot either and then there is the case capacity difference making the 45-70 less likely to achieve the equal of the 458 with about 14 grains more room in the case than the 45-70 largest capacity brass,Winchester at 80.3.

No problem here jorge..Have a great day.

Jayco

Logcutter,
It is apparant that you are a good hunter, a good shot, and have access to some good hunting in which case I would bet dollars to donuts you could duplicate those same feats with a 30-30..I have with the 25-35 Win.

My only point being that for the average hunter, there are better choices for an expensive hunt where opertunity may come only once in a two week hunt..I also know that in the films I have that if the 45-70 afficiendo had put a couple of more shots into that elk the results would have been different, but he was attempting to prove to the world the 45-70 was the last word in one shot killing power..It isn't.

I will stand positive that a 45-70 isn't a good choice for elephant, Lion, Cape Buffalo or Hippo under any conditions. It is a stunt that could get one killed..Killing any one of these animals can and has been done, no doubt about that, I also know it has been done with a 308, 8x57, 7x57 and 30-06, I have done that myself with those calibers. I know of a young kid that was hunting Impala and stuck a 45 gr. Hornet bullet in a sleeping Cape buffalo bulls ear and killed it. I know of a rogue elephant that was killed with a 44 magnum pistol by Hannes Swanapol from a Helicopter. He also killed a full grown African Lion with that same pistol some years later but had no other option... I agree that about any caliber will kill about anything.

My only point is continued use of some of these questionalbe calibers could very easily come back and bite you in the butt. I have stood several charges by Cape Buffalo and I always had "more than enough gun", and I always wished, at the time, that I had a bigger stick in my hands!

You use your 45-70 properly and it works for you..Not everyone will do that.

ray i cant agree more.

from a professional point of view i can foresee some "technical" problems(liability) as well. when someone comes over here with a 45-70 to hunt dgame and this person gets killed, with no fault to the 45-70. it wont be long before someone is going to try and pin this on the ph for allowing a hunter to hunt dgame with a borderline dgame calibre, even if the calibre has nothing to do with the incident.

i remember this happening in the late 90's with an incident in the Limpopo province where the hunter was killed and his choice was the 375H&H. i remember the case officer asking the ph " why did you allow the hunter to hunt with the minimum allowed calibre why not be responsible and get something bigger?"

ridiculous i know, but such is the the day to day stuff that makes africa fun.

i mention this just to illustrate that in africa, so many things can go wrong. let alone when you hunt dgame. why then not take a calibre that has more power. when your life is at stake rather take the calibre that will do the job rather than the calibre that most probably can do the job.

i say again if someone wants to hunt dgame in africa with the 45-70, then come. you will find ph's that will allow this. and no someone that has shot 5 buffalo is no expert, but he is a good hunter, no disrespect intended.

having said all this i have a small suspicion that we all have been had. i suspect that this thread was started knowing the reactions that will follow. if so, congratulations. after all this is what a forum is all about.

Ray..I don't disagree with that at all in fact,I have repeatedly said that if I was ever to go to Africa,I would choose a more powerful cartridge than the 45-70,and I would.I think if everyone would talk to each other rather down at someone who chooses a certain caliber,we wouldn't have these debated talks that always end up like this one and the author new it would and got what he wanted,I suppose.

I have owned two 30-30's most of my life and shot a fair amount of game with them but the 30-30 is not a modern 45-70 with modern bullets..You say and I agree on deep timber and taking any shot available if you want your Elk these days,especially here in Idaho.

I suffered this year from carrying my 45-70 loaded with 425 grain cast at 1850 fps.Saw alot of Elk and the one shot I had was with a cow a few yards behind the big Bull.I new wherever I hit the big Bull with the 425 grain bullet,the bullet would exit so I passed on a prize..I would however pulled the trigger with my 30-30/8MM Mauser/270 or even my '06 I had loaded with the soft Hornady Interbond but I also would have passed with the .300 Win Mag and 180 or 200 Noslers.

I am confident the 45-70 will penetrate any Bull I run into at any angle if I do my part at a reasonable range.A 300 Barnes XFN did 90% of a spike with an exit expanding..

I wouldn't trade my 45-70 Guide Gun for anything as it is the best timber gun I have ever owned but I wouldn't use it in Africa.Some do and are successful doing so but I would be looking for a .416 on up from what little I know.I never count on anyone backing me up so I try to be prepared the first time.

Good luck to you Ray.I think we agree on way more than we disagree on.

Jayco

According to the Hornady manual A Ruger #1 is capable of 1800 fps with a 500 gr RN or FMJ. While that is no .458 it is certainly a different horse than the old 400 gr factory load of 1200 fps.
Nobody that shoots factory ammo can benefit from that fact though.
As far as hunting with a single shot, my customers have told me that when you fire your PH will follow up your shot so that you are hunting with a single shot no matter what rifle you use.
I had a customer go to Africa and use a .375 on elephant and his buddy had a .458. When they got back they told me that the .458 required about 8 shots to bring down the elephant where the .375 required 2 shots.
I'll go out on a limb and say bullet placement trumps all!
whelennut

That's the bottom line isn't it! Completely agree.

That is not a hard and fast rule and something you & your PH should discuss before the hunt. Now if there is a charge that is an entirely different matter. as to the single shot issue, I'll relate another anectdote. I once saw Thompson Center Shill and Whitetail expert Larry Weishun take a buffalo with a Single Shot TC (PUKE) in 416 Rigby. The bufflo was close, less than 15 yards or so. At the shot the buffalo turned 90 deg and bolted while ol' Larry was trying to effect a reload as fast as he could. I timed it. It took him a full 8.5 seconds to get the second shot off. Had the buffalo turned their way and charged, either Larry would have gotten tossed or the PH would have had to step in and administer the killing shot. More or less a similar scenario to folks thst like to go and hunt DG with bows or whatever. Single shot rifles are neat, I do LOVE my Sharps 45-110 and would like to hunt Cape buffalo with one someday, but with the full knowledge that it is my CHOICE and a "just because" thing. My Rigby with 400gr A Frames is a much better tool. jorge

Actually, the first words out of the mouth of the head ballistician at the powder company (I'll not disclose his name for privacy purposes)which tested my loads in the Ruger was :"You have just reinvented the 458 Winchester Magnum. What was the recoil like?" ...referring to shooting those loads from a very lightweight Ruger No.1.

Hornady's loads for the Ruger No.1 are NOT necesarily 50,000 CUP! In fact compare their loads with Lymans, and you'll see what I mean. Example: 53.1 grs of IMR 3031 behind the 500gr Hor is listed as max by Hornady, implying it attained 50,000 CUP or thereabouts. Lyman lists the identical load at 1742 fps at 32,700 CUP, which corresponds with my internal ballistics computer program. And that 50,000 CUP is not SAAMI, but Hornady's decision based on their own criteria. Speer uses 35,000 CUP and Lyman 40,000, and those are all arbitrary. A rep at Ruger told me personally that they will NOT give a number for the strength of the Ruger No.1 in 45-70. But he assured me that IF I wanted a means by which to judge it, it could be compared to the strength of the Ruger No.1 in 458 Winchester.

I mention this because it's been strongly stated, or inferred, several times in these threads that NO 45-70 compares with a 458WM. That's repeating hearsay.

My point is a simple one: a 45-70 in an action as strong as the Ruger, where a 500gr can be seated to the cannelure, equals the performance of published standard .458WM factory 500 grainers, and exceeds them in real life, when loaded from 60,000 to 63,500 PSI. It does it because the 458WM has a too long throat and has been traditionally UNDERLOADED! With good handloads the 458WM comes into its own today with an easy 2150 to 2200 fps from 500s. Can the Ruger in 45-70 match that? NO. But my long-throated Ruger can, and does. Do I think the Ruger is therefore a best or even "good" rifle for PH's? No. But then, neither do I think a single-shot of any caliber-cartridge is a good bet for a pro!

Would I take mine to hunt DG? YOU BET, in the blink of an eye!

Bob

www.bigbores.ca

1. Buy the new Rifle
2. Read the story by the PH who had no doubt killed more big nasties than most of us will SEE Whitetails.

I admit the 9.3x62 surprised me (I own two) but the biggest thing I've shot was an Elk and they generally don't attack, gore and stomp hunters (alas, in some cases)

FWIW,Larry Kelly (of Magna-Port fame) has killed several elephants (including one gigantic old bull)with a 44 Magnum revolver under fair chase hunting conditions.He has also taken cape buffalo,leopard,lion,and grizzly bear with the 44,among others,just FYI.

The 375 JDJ,used by many of the handgun hunting types to kill every species of the Big 5 with relative ease,is the ballistic equivelent of a 375 Winchester rifle.Makes a 45/70 look like a damn cannon in comparison.

99% of it is the nut behind the trigger,rather than the gun/load.A good game shot with a cool head is going to have luck with just about whatever he shoots.

Brian.

A good friend of mine has taken 5 Elepahants 4 with Contenders, 1 with a 45-70 Contender and 3 with the 375 JDJ. He had zero problems

Bob,
I would guess that pressures are held down because they can't be sure what brass cases we are using.
When I was working up loads in 1987 for my Ruger #1 45-70 I used the Lyman #462560 with #2 alloy and sometimes linotype.
A 552 gr Flatnose with a gas check is a lot different than the old soft lead bullets hunters used in the blackpowder days.
There just is no way to lump all 45-70 rifles/cartridges into one category. I also had a Ruger #3 in 45-70 which is just as strong an action but much lighter with a hard buttplate.
This rifle was very accurate and fun to shoot with factory loads however with stiff handloads it moved into another category altogether.
My 35 Whelen is much more pleasant to shoot and I do have some
275 gr Barnes Originals for when a circus tiger escapes.
whelennut

whelennut;

Hey, my son had a #3 and the loads I loaded to 2000+ with the Hornady 500 were shot in his also, with the same results... but I made sure he fired them!!!

Bob

www.bigbores.ca

Brass isn't a problem with the 45-70.George Weber of Hodgdons powder tested Winchester brass(The thinnest of 45-70 brass)at 70,000 CUP and they just fell out of there SAAMI barrel.The action is the week point in the leverguns not the brass..

Hodgdons rates the Ruger #1 at 50,000 CUP but I understand how one could assume it would take the same pressure as the 458 Win Mag in the same firearm,somewhat like my BFR in 45-70 which has an interchangeable cylinder to take the 450 Marlin and it's SAAMI of 43,500 PSI.

Jayco