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Originally Posted by MontanaMan
Originally Posted by Ton264
By far, the three BEST gunsmiths for Model 70-type action hunting rifles are:

1. D'Arcy Echols

2. Gene Similion

3. Mark...what's his last name? He works with the two above...

Unfortunately, they are also among the most expensive.


You left off David Miller...........easily the equal of Echols, the best of the 3 you mentioned.

MM


Kenny Jarret!!!!Da man.


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Originally Posted by Huntz
Originally Posted by MontanaMan
[quote=Ton264]By far, the three BEST gunsmiths for Model 70-type action hunting rifles are:

1. D'Arcy Echols

2. Gene Similion

3. Mark...what's his last name? He works with the two above...

Unfortunately, they are also among the most expensive.


You left off David Miller...........easily the equal of Echols, the best of the 3 you mentioned.

MM



One thing for sure....you will never go wrong with any of these four guys.




The 280 Remington is overbore.

The 7 Rem Mag is over bore.
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That is assuming you want what they build. They all built their reputation in a fairly narrow niche. If you want a McSwirly/ Remington clone/wildcat I would come up with a different set of names. But for Win M70s, that list would go a long ways (including my kids' inheritance.)

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Kenny Jarrett.....if accuracy is your game.


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Originally Posted by mathman
Quote
I've seen some with 3 shot groups between 1/4" and 1/2" with cartridges suitable for most hunting (like a 30-06).


Aren't Cooper's test targets shot in a 50 yard tunnel?


From Cooper's website. My understanding is that rim fires are shot at fifty yards but center fires are from 100.

Based on our popular �Varminter� with the addition of the Montana Varminters "Buick holes" and the proven strength of laminated wood, the Varmiter Laminate is an instant hit. Available in our Model 21, 22, and 38. All Varminter Laminates are single shot bolt action rifles that present superior accuracy in a variety of standard and wild-cat cartridges guaranteed to shoot 1/2" 3-shot groups at 100 yards (test target proving rifle accuracy included with every Varminter Laminate). Also available left handed.


The Mayans had it right. If you�re going to predict the future, it�s best to aim far beyond your life expectancy, lest you wind up red-faced in a bunker overstocked with Spam and ammo.


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The term "Custom Rifle" has been degraded over the last few years with the stainlees steel and plastic market..Those IMO are simi custom rifles and they bring as much as $10,000 but for the life of me I cannot imagine how other than some folks believe that price is the ultimate indicator of value and in some cases it is but this isn't the place.

The cost of a true custom rifle is mostly in the wood and the craftsmanship of that build. same applies to metal work..

Most of the high dollar SS and plastic guns I see cost about $1800 to build with a few exceptions that may be higher in production cost, but my question is are they better, will they shoot better..A simple custom quality $400 ss barrel with a good $400 plastic stock on a Rem 700 $400 action stuck together in glass will shoot mighty tiny groups and were at $1500 with all the tricks plus labor, so I don't see the high dollar modern stuff...I can see a lot of value in a a traditional wood stock, that is expensive wood (that is also another story)and labor intensive and skill that took maybe 30 plus years to develope, that is "custom"...

I know, the new kids, the 1000 yard snipers, on the block are thinking I have lost it, maybe I have, but if so , I earned the right. smile smile smile and its only my opinnion.

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Originally Posted by bonefish
Is a named custom/semi custom the safe route to go for a super accurate gun with good customer service?


From my experience, it is a safer route, but there are no guarantees. A buddy and I both had work done by one of the "top" smiths that at the time always had guns featured in Shooting Times and other such magazines. The guns were expensive, but hey, you pay for what you get, right? We both ended up sending ours back to be fixed. Customer service was very poor.


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Originally Posted by Huntz
Originally Posted by MontanaMan
Originally Posted by Ton264
By far, the three BEST gunsmiths for Model 70-type action hunting rifles are:

1. D'Arcy Echols

2. Gene Similion

3. Mark...what's his last name? He works with the two above...

Unfortunately, they are also among the most expensive.


You left off David Miller...........easily the equal of Echols, the best of the 3 you mentioned.

MM


Kenny Jarret!!!!Da man.



Sort of the who's who of what you see in the shiny pages but there are many guys out there that will build you one that shoots better for MUCH LESS.

http://benchrest.com/hammonds/hunter_rifle.html
Quietly turning out some of the most accurate hunting rifles available.He ain't a people person on the phone but then ya didn't call for a kiss did ya.Over 30 world records in benchrest and that quality is built into every hunting rifle.


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Really hard to find a guy who can't build a great rifle if you ask around just a little.

Greg Tannel, the Biesens, Charlie Sisk, Mike Bryant, etc.


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For me, it's not about shooting better, it's about a better rifle. I'd have to agree with those that say that those guys make a good rifle great.

The old man biesen was also very good in his prime and made my uncle a 270 Winchester that was kept in the family for 20 years before he sold it without asking me if I'd like to buy it. I think he sold it for 2K, about what it cost him at the time, but way under what it would be worth today.


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try cooper rifles they are kind of semi custom and shoot very well for under $2000


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I think they are but i have a cooper 6.5x284 hunting rifle and i have shot with 140 grain smk 5 bullets touching at a 200yds


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Ray-

You have not lost it, just identified reality.

Many many so called custom "wanabes" can do nothing more than pour glass into a plastic stock.

It has to be wood for a start.
Brownell, Ottmar, Kennedy,Beison,Goens are a few who set the stage years ago.

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After having three rifles built for me, I have to say that I'm very happy with them.
You can get somebody like Pac-Nor to put your choice of a barrel on your action and they shoot really well. Far better than I really need. I did that with my first two.
But to do it really well, you need to find a guy that has alot of experience in building the type of rifle you really want and need. I used such a person to modify my first two and to build my 3rd.
For example, I'm not interested in the last word in accuracy. While it's lots of fun shooting groups under .5 MOA with a light sporter, I'd much rather have a rifle that goes bang under the worst of conditions and a scope that will hold it's zero under such conditions. The two are not at all the same sort of rifle build, trust me.
To my mind, a custom, or customized rifle is one that better suits your needs than one that I can buy off of the rack. Just what those needs and desires are, are up to you and your pocket book.
Beware of doing this however. I was convinced that only one would do. Now I have three and I've customized a couple of others quite a bit. It's is an aquired, very expensive addiction. E

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Plus one to what E said

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Wood is only the half of it - If you have even seen exactly what D'Arcy Echols or David Miller ( or Smithson, Heilman, Wiebe, Borden, Satterlee, Paul, Martini, et al ) do you would see that they can easily put in as many hours with the metal work as the stock maker. That is why a synthetic stocked Echol's or laminated Miller rifle costs what it does.
Like in any field there are plenty of folks copying the same style of rifle and cutting costs by simply re-barreling a Rem-700 clone and dropping it in an after market stock and often these rifle will shoot just as well but if 100% reliability over the long run is your goal then a lot of folks in the know choose rifles by the top end builders.


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Well said E, custom is in the eyes of the beholder!


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Along the lines of what Phil just said, there are alot of rifle builders out there who are switch overs from custom machinists and they can build one hell of an accurate rifle. But if something isn't just right, it's time to seek out the metalsmith who knows how (and why) to make a rifle feed and function correctly. Today, if I were going the super accurate SS/Synthetic route where nothing short of stellar accuracy and function were acceptable, Jim Borden would be my man.

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You are very correct Phil! I'm sorry though as I don't see Sisk and Jarret worthy of this crowd. Jump on me if you want, but until you have actually handled and shot them, you wouldn't understand. That was not directed at you Phil.
Butch

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