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I think that what gets Lassie's blood boiling is people professing to be experts on Wild Cat Cartridges when they have never built one (must less 20-30 over a 35 year period).

When you have no experience in having wild cat cartridges built, then DON'T TYPE IN THE WILD CAT SECTION.

It does not help to make crass comments, it just dimenishes this board.

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The REALLY funny thing is that this post isn't/wasn't titled 257 Weatherby Wildcat.

The OP wanted to know about the 257 Roy and the WILDCATTERS made it about something else. wink






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...and by the way, this is the Custom Rifles and Wildcat section, so not only about wildcats. Wanna talk about a wildcat start a thread.


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If you sift gently through the rancor, the Wildcatters have some very good points....following is JMHO so take it for what it's worth and remember what you paid for it....

First'I'm no expert but suspect a lot of things,like a lot of the load work up in loading manuals is done in special pressure barrels that may deliberately be built somewhat "undersized", which means they are tighter,ie a 270 pressure barrel may mike .276 through the grooves,maybe more or less,but the point is that in working up loads for thier particular bullets Nosler, for example, or Hornady for another,want to be sure their data is "safe" in a wide variety of rifles whose barrels may be "tight",exactly to spec, or a bit "loose".

What I'm saying is that barrels vary in dimensions of bore and groove diameter;and bullets vary a great deal in hardness of jackets, material,diameter(mike a Partition sometime),length of bearing surface, etc.

All of these things can conspire in one direction or another to make manual data for a given cartridge not give precisely the same velocity/pressure ratio that the manual suggests.

Plus, these guys who wildcat usually do so with finely squared up actions, and super accurate custom barrels with special throating (because reamers vary a good bit, too). So they get a Lilja(say)that may be on the "tight" side....and mix it with bullet having a longer,full diameter, bearing surface,work up to manual "max",and discover that they are outrunning manual velocities but 100-200 fps....

Factor in what JB has said many times about precisely built,blueprinted actions and barrels that do not demonstrate high pressure signs in the same manner as a somewhat sloppier factory/barrel combination,and you can wind up with a situation where the rifle delivers higher than "normal" velocities at pressures that appear safe based on case life, primer pocket expansion, etc.

Conversely,we take another combination of bullet/barrel that may be "looser,or have a slicker bore(smooth,custom),that when mixed with a bullet that is a half thou undersized,and this combo may allow the use of loads that dramatically exceed the loads listed in the manuals as ""max";and may give more velocity in the process......

It is entirely possible to run into barrel/bullet/load combos that demnstrate excessive pressure yet do not deliver the velocity considered normal for the cartridge.

And always remember those finely built actions and barrels and their effect on the velocities and max loads....

None of this is meant to say that loads giving extra velocities are always above or below SAAMI pressure spec, because most of us do not have the equipment to precisely measure pressure of given loads.I mention this just to make us think and remember that rifle/bullets vary greatly in the way they interact,the velocity they deliver,and the pressures they generate.

I am not much of a wildcatter myself(although I am having one built right now) but the guy who builds and shoot these things routinely is almost always more likely to encounter these varied situations than those who stick pretty much to factory-built rifles and manual loads.

I think this is what Keith and others are trying to articulate and if they think I am wrong they can wang away at me too!LOL! grin

Last edited by BobinNH; 02/03/10.



The 280 Remington is overbore.

The 7 Rem Mag is over bore.
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well said.
that is a great explanation why some loads are safe in some and not in others, and why some rifles achieve high velocities than others, and why some can take more powder and still show no signs of pressure and still be entirely safe.

thank you .



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Originally Posted by splattermatic
and why some can take more powder and still show no signs of pressure and still be entirely safe.


Careful about that part right there... JB has said numerous times that it may not show the typical signs, but that doesn't mean it's safe. (Which is the point I've been making for a while on this thread)

I think Bob summed it up well. I just hate to see people misinterpret the information when it hasn't been fully presented to suggest that it's safe to run loads that are very likely exceeding 65K without understanding the consequences.

Read about Layne Simpson's 7STW loads sometime. Perfectly fine with regard to all the "usual" indicators and running well over 70K pressures when finally tested.

After that you decide if ya wanna take the risk.


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mtnman: Yes, of course...that is the unknown we all deal with in interpreting "traditional" pressure signs and it is hard to remember all this stuff in a post..... smile




The 280 Remington is overbore.

The 7 Rem Mag is over bore.
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I know all about individual rifles, different lots of components, et cetera. But there's an overarching principle of physics that applies no matter whose finely machined gun or jug of powder or brick of primers we're talking about.

Projectile velocity, and hence kinetic energy, is the manifestation of the work done by an expanding volume of gas. When you study physics you learn this work may be expressed mathematically as the integral of pressure with respect to differential volume.

The deal is if you're hooking a given chamber (257 Wby., 25-06 AI, whatever) to a given length of .257" rifled tube the volume part of the integral is fixed. So the only way to get more work out of it is to increase the height of the pressure function that's being integrated. This is the "area under the curve" thing that gets bandied about.

Ideally we would like to have the powder ignite and have the resulting gas pressure quickly rise to a high but safe level and hold there as long as possible. This would maximize the work done on the projectile. There are new propellants that are supposed to come closer to this ideal than the classics. But this argument has been going on since the classic powders were the only ones available.

Like I said earlier I acknowledge different rifles are different. But my assertion is these differences between rifles are more than likely not big enough to explain the large reported differences in performance without altering the integrand (pressure function) in the work integral in a significant way.

I believe if the rifles in question were properly instrumented to test for pressure the results would support my conjecture.

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man it shore do sound purty when you say it... smile


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Originally Posted by LASSIE
Originally Posted by keith
I got educated by shooting 100K+ rounds through various Wild Cats, not by reading.


But Keith you cheated you got the answers from outside the box
you must not have any common sense like these other experts do.
you need to stick you nose back in that loading bible and you will find where you went a stray. now straighten up your act and quit doing them stupid things like learning. the more you learn the more stupid you will get.I think I will get rid of all my guns I now have learned on this site how dangerous they are.


I think with the cash you receive from your sales, you should perhaps invest some of your money in a one week, possibly two week course of simple english/grammar classes- It does a person good. . .

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By the way- I love my .257!

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Bob, that was a great post.

Some of you guys may want to go to the "Hunting Rifles" section and go down about half a page to the "264 Winchester" and read all the responses.

There are some very experienced guys there, and all of them are a fine example how good men discuss their experiences...what I'm used to.

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I just read the 264 thread you mentioned Keith, and yeah it was a good one. But, if I mentioned what I had for results in my 25" .270 you think it'd remain as civil... grin

Hey these threads are fun and they're supposed to be that way. By and large we have a really fine group here on the Fire. From time to time they get a bit off course either by hijacking and or someone having a bit of a "tude". But by and large they're fun. (and I know I can be one of the aids in getting threads off course, but I generally try to be civil)

While I've only been loading for rifles for about 39 years and don't have a total wealth of knowledge I do have a bit. And a goodly share (last 22 years or so)of that has been with the "catz" as I've never quite been able to do things like others. I've seen a lot of different rounds (including several 240 PSP barrels which is mucho like a 6AI), I've seen a lot of different barrels and I've seen that a lot of people go about it very differently. Some take a relatively sensible approach to what they're doing, and by nature of the wildcatter some just can't help themselves and hot rod the heck out of them.

I know this cause I was once one of them. I'd push em to the edge and thensome. Not real smart on my part, bout the only thing I ever did that was smart was to keep my mouth shut and not tell people about some of the crazy stuff I was doing.

And yeah I've worn out my share of barrels, 8 alone on one rifle and the #'s will escalate to about 3x that if I counted all including the ones I didn't run from start to finish.

Guess my point is it's fun to talk about this ballistic gack (when we can't be on the hill hunting), and it's especially fun to do so in a civil manner.

But, when people come on here and start talking about some crazy kinds of #'s people from the Fire are and will take note and call em on it. It's pretty easy to fool those that ride the pine but those that are in the game is another story. So, if someone comes in full of P&V telling us about a 25/06AI @ 3920 and a 6AI @ 4100 something people will notice and say something.

Now people could come back in a civil manner and offer to cuss and discuss it, but by reacting with insults name calling and other acts of poor behavior it gets a bit old...

Lastly, I will say that I am a believer in there being fast and slow barrels. But, some of the #'s being tossed about have a very high probablility of being attained by clocks giving poor readings, perhaps some really fast tubes that are being redlined and of course toss in a bit of male machismo and viola you have some nutso #'s.

As for the person who choose to act like your basic 6 year old I'd be more than welcome to meeting him at the range some hot August night and seeing how his rigs run. I'll be the one bringing the hammer and the one stepping off a bit while he drops the hammer... wink

And someone also mentioned the idea of running some of the data thru quick load, that'd be kind of an interesting idea. I had MtMarine help me while back with my 338 WSM and some of the loads I was running he said looked kool and some he said you might wanna back off a bit. Not a perfect solution I know but it wouldn't hurt to run them just the same.

Dober (aka dummer as Lassie renamed me... :o)


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On a friendlier note, if anyone is looking for some reasonably priced .257 ammo Midway has some 100g SP in stock for 33.50 a box. Not bad considering the same brass costs 32.00 and change for 20 empty brass.

I was sent a notification yesterday evening, but wasn't able to order it on the site. When I called and asked they said it was there and I was able to do it on the phone.


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Good post Mark, I have seen some guys do some things that are spectacular in terms of speed with accuracy.

Containing pressure is the case, I had samples of various Brands of brass Rockwell tested, which was a real eye opener. There was a 13% difference in spread between the softest and hardest brands of brass, and a 12 % spread in Hardness in the same lot number of the same brand of brass. Really makes for an eyeopener on reading pressure signs.

I think that the guys that have designed Rem actions have made one whale of a strong action, as proved over the years. I don't think that you or I will live long enough to have one of our actions blow up from metal fatigue.

I have serious misgivings about running hot rod loads through A- Bolts and Ruger 77's, and I have put custom barrels with minimum spec match chambers on these actions, getting spectacular velocity and accuracy, these were not high volume shooters.

Putting wild cats that are stomping on 60,000-65,000 constantly on a falliing block action or a Break open action of any kind is asking for all kinds problems, and I don't think that it is prudent for anyone to do it. I had a friend put a 257 Weatherby on a break open, stretched the frame at the hinge pin creating excessive headspace.

What gets me on this board more than anyother board is the amount of Heckling that goes on. Most board have moderators that nip Heckling in the bud, this board does not...it is really sickening.

Last edited by keith; 02/03/10.
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Originally Posted by ingwe
Maybe I can help with that Gene..

It IS possible to get 3900fps out of an 87 grain .25-06...



IF and only IF you live on the moon with 1/6th the gravitational pull of the earth...and are completely in denial about the Law of Physics...


grin
Ingwe


Interesting thread. There is another way to get those kinds of velocities. When the LED screen starts to go it can be difficult to see the difference between a 9 and an 8 and maybe a 6 or a 0.


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Dober/Keith/Mathman: Great posts and well said!.....Sanity restored!LOL!

Last edited by BobinNH; 02/03/10.



The 280 Remington is overbore.

The 7 Rem Mag is over bore.
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4 now.... wink

Dober


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Mark, I'd love to hear about the results you got with your 270, and I bet a lot of others would also.

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he doesn't want to get jumped on....


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