I am thinking about using 185 Barnes TSX bullets in my 338 Win Mag. for a up-comming elk hunt. I would appreciate any imput on this load.

Probably work ok but I like the heavier bullets in my 338 for elk.225s have always worked great for mine! If i want a lighter bullet I shoot 180s from the 06 for elk. JMHO

That 185 will likely penetrate and exit on a broadside shot and keep going on to a lunar orbit.

I like 200-210's in the 338 WM, but that's just me.

Should work fine. From what I can tell, the TSX seems to thrive at high velocity.

I am thinking about the same thing. I'll have to figure out what the ballistic advantage would be over the 210 TSX.

It will have to shoot flatter and recoil less.

The 210 TSX BT has a BC of .404 and a SD of .263

The 185 TSX BT has a BC of .352 and a SD of .231

However:

The 210 TTSX BT has a BC of .482 and a SD of .263

The 185 TTSX BT has a BC of .432 and a SD of .231

SO the 185 TTSX BT may be a better choice over the 210 TSX BT

The critical factor will be muzzle velocity.

I prefer the 210 Partition to anything that can be run through a 338 WM.

Curious, but, this early (or late) in the season, where have you drawn to hunt elk?

If it shoots in your rig it'll most likely work just fine. I had a bud shoot a nice 6 with the bullet out of the 338 Federale and it didn't exit on a shot that I felt it should have. Who knows maybe on the next 10 elk it would, but I like/want/prefer to have to wholes in critters especially elk.

Could be it didn't exit cause it didn't have enough speed to begin with. He's using a factory load and it seems to me it runs at 2550 or something like that out of his Montana.

Bottom line, I like Brad like more bullet weight in the 338, and like him I'd go with the 210 Partition or if you can find it the slug that's my all time fav is the 200 NBT.

The other thing is I've tried to make the 185 TSX shoot in my 338/06,338 wsm and my 340 and to date I've never got it to shoot and trust me I have tried.

If starting from scratch if I had the 200 NBT I'd use it and R17 and R19 and H4350 as a second and third choice. If I didn't have any of the 200 NBT's around I'd not mess with it and go right to the 210 Noz just like Brad said.

In a 3 of any kind you just can't go wrong with that bullet.

Dober

Hope to get drawn for Wyoming in 2011.

When considering lighter versus heavier for a particular cartridge and bullet type, I always run the ballistics and compare both when zeroed for a max rise of 3". Then I compare the downrange trajectory and retained velocity and energy.

Usually I come to the conclusion that lighter is not all its cracked up to be and that medium or even heavy bullets are the better choice. In my .30-30, for example, I use 130's only for plinking and 170's for hunting - because of downrange energy. In my 7mm RM I compared the 120g and 140g TTSX and, after working up loads for both, selected the 140g. You might want to run a similar check on the bullets you are considering. Nothing like a few facts to help make a rational decision...

What speeds and energy are we talking about with the 185 TSX in 338 Win Mag?

Now for starters, the .338 Win mag was made for big heavy game animals and meant to shoot bigger bullets simply put. You are working against the grain, when going after animals the size of elk and want to shoot 185 grain bullets.

I have used a 210 grain Nosler Partition bullet out of my .338 caliber rifles but that is the very lightest I will go in my .338/06 and the .338 Win mag gets the 225 grn bullet most of the time. In the real heavy stuff I will go to the 275 grn Swift A Frames.

I shoot the 338RUM and it loves the 185s and it is what I shoot mainly. It does recoil less than the 210s and hasn't bounced off any critter to date. I would definately not be afraid of that combo for elk. HAPPY HUNTING

Here's a 185 gr TSX recovered from a bull taken at 280 yards. With the bull slightly quartering away the bullet entered just behind the near shoulder and centered the off one stopping just under the hide (I am always amazed how the hide can just take that last bit of "wind" out of a slug). Clearly the bullet got pounded but the bull did drop immediately so no complaints here. Muzzle velocity was a click over 2900 fps. The bullet now weighs 122 grs. Given this small bit of experience I would choose a 210 gr bullet as minimum in the Mag. I have taken a few bulls with the 210 gr Partition in the same rifle at ~2800 fps and the results were similar except the bullet blew on through at much higher impact velocities. Just my two bits.

I've got a 338 Win mag on order. I bought it for elk hunting. I've had excellent experience with TSX's, in 30, and 25 calibers. However I haven't had to shoot long range with them. My elk outfitter asks that I show up with my rifle zero'ed at 300 yards. With a TSX starting at 2800 fps I don't know if it will still open at say 350 yards which is my limit. I want to default to the Nosler Partition in either 210/225 but have heard they are not all that accurate at extended range. I've kicked around the idea of having Superior ammo load some 225 grain MRX's,(which is desgined to open at extended range) but 82.00 a box makes me want to cry for my mommy. I've nevered ordered from them, but I'm sure there is a minimum order and that will get expensive quickly.Any ideas?

Lee are you looking for factory ammo or ammo to load yourself? (sorry if I missed it)

Dober

Factory ammo, afraid I'd blow myself up if I reloaded.

Take a look at the Federal 210 partition load, it's as good as it gets. I think they may even make a high energy load in it?

Dober

Thanks, and I apologize to the OP for the hijack. Lee

"The 185 TSX BT has a BC of .352 and a SD of .231"

Let me gack a bit here...

.352 is a very low BC. It's getting into the realm where it actually DOES start to matter for practical purposes! With that low a BC, the bullet is really going to move around in the wind. Allow me to illustrate.

-in a 10 mph crosswind, a (let's say) 225-gn Accubond started at 2875 fps will drift about 10" at 400 yards.

-the 185 TSX, started at 3100 fps, will DOUBLE that and drift about 20" at 400 yards.

In my experience shooting low-BC bullets at longer ranges, when you get down as low as as .352 BC, you are into the realm of wind movement that actually matters- compared to what you could have- and into a realm of wind movement that actually matters, and WILL cost you hits on a vitals-sized target.

In addition to that, Utah708 failed to get an exit on a bull elk with (2) 210-gn TSX's from a .338. Broadside. So... Barnes bullets are not some sort of miracle pill that penetrates all the way every time regardless of bullet weight.

I'll pimp my favorite bullet for .338. Give the 225 Accubond a try (RL19 works great). It shoots great, it has such a high BC (.550) that it makes the .338 a bona-fide 600+ yard cartridge, and I've seen 2 elk killed with that exact load and it exited both times, with the animal DRT. Granted, they were all 200+ yards.

Just my opinion, but a 185 TSX would be a poor choice for a .338. You can do better.

I basically agree with you Jeff, back when I ran a 338 and a 340 a lot I had a thing for the 250 Noz. It shoot incredibly well, in fact for me quite a bit better than I could ever get the 210 Noz to shoot.

Most don't likey the 250's as they tend to bounce one around a bit more. Me I just don't notice it anymore. Hmm, wonder why..?

Dober

I don't know if or how well I could run your 340 Mark, but I've reached the point where my sporter .338 is just "eh" in terms of recoil, too!

Not sure if that's something to be PROUD of, or worry about, though.

I really should be shooting today; no rain. But I'm trying to get that moolah gravity effect going... you know the one...

Lee I'll offer what I have many times... 338 win mag with the 225 barnes bullet, NOT The new ttsx ones either, the older "harder" to open ones... around 27-2800 fps IIRC... 2 shots on a caribou at 802 yards, both bullets opened(you can tell the difference in the entry and exit sizes, and both continued sailing on. The second one breaking the spine in the process.

With your round, I wouldn't worry about a tsx, or ttsx of any weight, for at least the first 500 yards....

Yes. First,rumores of the inaccuracy of Nosler Partitions at extended range may be true....if by extended range you mean beyond 600 yards (as far as I have shot them in 7mm,30 cal,and 338).Since I've used Partitions on a couple of bulls to the 500 yard mark myself,and seen others do the same,the Partition is plenty accurate.If your outside limit is 350 yards you have nothing to fear assuming your rifle shoots well in the first place.Partitions shoot great.

Besides, this is something you can ascertain for yourself by shooting the rifle at these distances.

With a 225 at 2800, you won't be able to zero at 300 yards without excessive mid-range at 100-200 yards.The load is not fast enough to give those results.About 3" high at 100 is bout right;this will put you about 5" low at 300 yards.A higher shoulder hold at 350 will catch the chest of a bull elk.

Or you can run dotz to compensate at 350-400.

Yet we all know that drop is not what kills a person, its wind drift... especially in the mountains....

Screw the outfitter and setup for best non wind drift and learn the distances and how to elevate. Thats your job really. Has nothing to do with the outfitter IMHO, you should come ready to make any shot out to 500 yards right now, with some help from YOUR rangefinder and YOUR windspeed meter and YOUR dope chart.

Their job is to find an elk for you.

No flame,just my opinion and since you didn't pay much for my opinion...

If you must go 185 Barnes, how about the 185 TTSX? It has a very respectable .432 BC. With the 185 TTSX you can at least start to make paper/internet arguments of the 185 vs the 225 AB. I agree that the poor BC of the TSX does start to matter. Why have to deal with the extra drift and sacrifice energy at range when there are bullets out there that won't put you in that spot. I'm not a long range hunter by any means, but I at least want to make the problem as easy as possible. The 225 Accubond is one I use in my 338-06 for just that reason, I really like it. But, I have some 185 TTSXs loaded up for the 338-06 and 338 Fed.

Consider this: A 185 TSX starting at 3100 is doing ~1883/24.4 drift @500yds. A 185 TTSX started at 2850 from a 338-06 is doing ~1886/21.4 at 500 yds and the 185 TTSX started at 2700 in a 338 Fed is doing 1768/23.3 @ 500yds. The poor BC reduces the 338 Win Mag to 338-06 at range, and only slightly better than a 338 Fed. Yes, it's all ballistic gack (as someone here eloquently refers to it), but there is a point where it makes a difference.

Morning Landkiller-you've got my curiosity up, why did you zero in on the 185 TSX? Speed, lighter recoil, friend using it?

Thx, and I hope you draw the tag when the time comes. Do you have any preference points built up?

Dober

PRM... good post! I will sacrafice BC to bullet performance though... its why I shoot Barnes because I've NEVER had even anything close to questionable performance or failure with them. I might be able to hit easier with a different bullet, but if I question its ability to work in every situation, then whats the use.

Yes you will certainly have trade offs BC vs speed, but that evens itself out further out... actually since we are only talking 350 yards, an 06 with a 168 ttsx would do anything needed, but if we are using a larger round, why not take the most advantage of it?

I moved from Virgina to Colorado this past November. I missed the entire hunting season due to the move. The distances here are beyond my ability to describe. 300 yard shots are not the norm in Virginia, even for varmits. Out here it seems to be almost point blank range. I've watched that televison show where they are routinely shooting a quarter to half mile, and that is way beyond my capablities. Do that in Virginia, and you could pretty much go on a book signing tour. I don't have the confidence to spin the turrets, so I will have to sight the rifle in around five inches high at 100 yards for a 300 yard zero near as I can figure with either TSX's or NP's running at 2800 fps. I didn't want to wound an elk with a bullet that has run out of gas or inaccurate at extended range. That seems to be cleared up with the last couple of posts. Thank you again for your input. Lee

Those 5 inch high zero's can bite you at times....

I"d rather zero the gun at 200 and turn knobs, or actually if no knobs, then learn the holdover at 300 or furhter.

If you are shooting further, then turrets... turrets are so easy I just dont' know why more don't use em. You range the animal and twist the knob.

Holdover, ...ugh. 5" over at 100, that might even be worse...? I cheat. Ballistic Plex on the -06 and a Leupold B&C on the 338 Fed. Makes life very simple. Simple is good. Would go turrets if I were expecting to go over 500yds. I'm not. I'll use my feet to get within 500yds, or much closer.

I have taken 3 bulls with the 210 partion's, no problem shoot good in my rifle, one was killed at 410 yds. no real reason to change bullets other than curiosity. I have heard good things about the Barnes bullets. The 185's shoot good in my rifle as well. After reading these post I believe I will stick with the Noslers. I have one preference point for Wyoming at this time.

Gotcha, the good old Nozler works so well that at times we get bored and start seeking others for funs and giggles.

As to the fella who mentioned 5" high, no thx for me. I'd not do that on any rig as there's just too many times that it can bite you.

I used dotz (or ballistic plex), they're quick easy and I don't have to worry about twisting nobs or calculation drop when I should be concentrating on putting the critter on the turf.

Lots of ways to skin the hold over cat, but dotz is by far the easiest I've ever worked with. Wind is the bigger bugger for me.

Dober

Without getting into the ballistic gack, which has been pretty well covered already anyway, I would like to point out I'm not a huge fan of the "really" light for caliber bullets, which I consider a 185gr .338 to be. If I was wanting to shoot a 185ish grain bullet at an elk I'd use a .308 something or other as it would have a much better ballistic resume.

I'm not trying to convince anybody they're wrong and I'm right but, speaking for myself, shooting a .338 with a bullet under 210gr is something akin to driving around with little donut tires on your SUV.* Will they get you where you're going most of the time? Well, yeah. Are they really what is best suited for the vehicle in question? I don't think so.

*For the sake of argument I suppose if one had a lesser .338 (338/06, etc) and wanted to be as flexible as possible one could try using the 185gr or even 160gr loads (assuming they shot well from your rifle) to attain a flat enough trajectory for antelope or what have you. With my .340 I'm flat enough with 210's that if I can't hit it whatever velocity gain I got from 185's wouldn't matter. It's tough to imagine it wouldn't be basically the same story with a .338WM.

Just my thoughts.

Circumstances don't always allow one to get closer... thats a fact, but whatever floats yer boat is cool. Though I"ll have to say I never thought of this... but maybe a dots or plex scope WITH turrets might be best of both worlds by far.

Guy-I'm not a terribly big fan of light for cal bullets either. I think on the smaller game (IE deer/black bruins/lopes etc) they'll do you just fine. I am a one who wants 2 holes in a critter and I don't feel comfy that one will get that as often with the light stubby bullets even of the TX brand.

I feel that the goodly share of people who've gravitated to the light for cal bullets are either trying to reduce recoil and or trying to get more speed out of a round that isn't a rocket.

Not wrong to go with the light for cal bullets, just not my cup of tea.

Dober

I always felt that light for caliber was a desire for speed, and the non learned types assume speed means flatter and of course flat is the only thing that seems to matter to most folks.

How many times do you see a topic with the question of what bullet/round to make the least wind drift? Contrary, its what is the flattest round.....

I almost bought a scope last summer that is a 3-9 Leo with both dotz and a top M1, seemed like a neat outfit. Would still like to do some work with it, although I feel that in the hunt world I'd hardly ever ever use the M1.

Being an active member of the infamous 50/50 club (50 years or older, and have been in and around the taking of 50 or more elk) I've learned that getting closer isn't always an option! I've also learned that some of the time there is very limited time and for me I can get on the game and take it out quicker with dotz than I can with a turret. Now that's not to say that there aren't times when I didn't have time for the turret but I can say that the dotz will always be one step quicker to putting an elk on the turf. Plus I don't have to worry about the turret turning by accident, and or the challenges that come from sticking a scope with turrets in a scabbard.

My main elk rifle is set to 700 with dotz and for me that's a good deal plenty far...

I do have a 3-10 Silver Leo with an M1 on top of my fav chuck rifle and I plan to give it a good go this summer. Just gotta load up enough 260 Accu's (it's a 375 Wby) for the adventures...

Dober

Isn't that the truth about the wind, that and angle and mirrage give me fits when the drop is easy to sort out. Just range it, pick a dot or turn in your clicks and viola.

It's only rocket science if we choose to make it so.

Dober

It is true that I found both of these 210 gr .338 TTSX under the far side hide of a big old bull. And while I would use that bullet again, I don't think I would be dropping down to the 185 gr if I was shooting a 338 Win Mag.

And at the time I was waffling back and forth between the Barnes and a 210 gr. Partition. I think either would be a fine choice.

Utah-nice pic, how far was the bull and what was the angle?

And yeah if the 210'S didn't exit then the 185's sure weren't gonna either..

Thx
Dober

225s both X and TSX have been nice over the years.

On rocket science yeah.... I"d almost rather have a dot for elevation and a knob for wind though if I had to pick and choose, hence I'd use knobs for both along with dots....or stadia or whatever ya call em wires nowdays.

As to the scabbard... never had to deal with that issue... unfortunately, and may never be able to afford to deal with it either.

Ideally there would be low turrets, protected by a cap and a scope that had 15mp wind hashes and hashes for out to say 600 or even like yours, 700.

I like 15mph marks in my mind, since 15 is an average norther here anyway, if its really strong it approaches 30, double what you have... and in most cases a noticeable wind is at least 5-7mph ie half a mark.....

Agree wholeheartedly. I was only saying that the hunting I do would allow for the opportunity to get closer. Actually, it's more accurate to say there are very few, if any,spots to really open it up. If it were more open, and the rifle would support it, I'd be dialing it up.



That's what I have on my .308. Burris FF II 4.5-14 with the B-Plex and their TAC-2 knobs. I'm good to go out to 600 using the B-Plex as set. I can adjust if I know I'm going to plink at longer ranges. I can either adjust the center reticle or make one of the tics work for a particular range. More likely, I'm just fine tuning for the environment. Haven't felt the need to adjust for hunting, but can't rule that out either.

Lee:

Just wanted to let you know that while we do have some pretty open country out here, that doesn't mean you have to take those shots.

I live in Colorado and as well as hunting here, I also hunt in Wyoming and South Dakota every year. I go after Elk, Mule Deer, Whitetails, and Antelope - and usually end up filling the tags.

The longest shot I've ever taken (was at a mule deer here in Colorado - a great tasting 4x4 by the way) was 175 yards...

Certainly you can take longer shots, but you don't have to. I don't and still seem to fill my tags. More than one way to skin a cat.

Paul

Killing elk at 350 yards is easy....sight in properly,practice at those distances with your rifle,aim at him, and pull the trigger....you don't need a dot, a turret,a fancy reticle or anything else...

Use any 338 bullet from 200-250 grains whether from Nosler,Barnes,Hornady.....whatever.....what the phuck is so complicated?


Elk are a friggin snap to kill,as is anything with 4 feet...if you know what you're doing with a rifle.

Cripes.....

The bull was 110 yards. First shot was broadside, the bull wheeled to run, second one was broadside (with a touch of forward angle) from the other side. Both shots were through the ribs rather than front legs, and both bullets were under the far side skin.

I am one who absolutely requires exit holes, so am perfectly satisfied with this outcome. Either bullet would have been fatal in short order. But most of us--myself included--would have predicted a passthrough.

All I need is one hole in the heart lung region (grin).

Exit holes are an unnecessary but good if you get them. However, a
as long as a bullet penetrates to the far side of an elk, I'm satisfied.

Those elk hides are pretty thick and rubbery and have a real knack of holding bullets...

That is exactly what I run on all my LR hunting rigs. I've got a Burris FFII Tactical 3-9x40 with BP and turrets on one rifle, a Zeiss Conquest 3-9x40 with R600 and turrets on another, and finally, a Hawke Frontier SF 4-16x40 with MD and turrets on my coyote rig. I use turrets for LONG shots, or if the animal is unaware of my presence and in no hurry to get moving, and the reticle for shots that match up to one of the reticle hash marks, or when I don't have time to check my drop charts and dial the turrets. Works great so far.

Jeff,

I have to disagree with you. Out to the OP's personal range limit (350 yards), I don't believe that the 185gr TSX would handicap the shooter to the point where he could make a shot with the AB, but not with the TSX. There just isn't that much difference out to 350. Also, 0.352 isn't THAT low, it's more like a middle of the road B.C. A low B.C. is what most of my .224 bullets have

That being said, I would use the 210gr TTSX and rock on- if you can find it in factory ammo. I typically use light-medium weight TTSX bullets in my serious hunting setups- 100gr .257, 140gr 7mm, 150gr .308.

It really doesn't make any difference what bullet he uses as long as he puts it in the right place. I wouldn't look anywhere other than the 185s for my 338RUM but that is just me and it is what I shoot. HAPPY HUNTING

My issue with light for caliber is still penetration, if a broadside ribs only bull at 110 stops the bullet, and if you are like me... I may take whatever shot I have, and I want to make sure that I have the power to do it.

Living where I do, its not easy to hunt elk, and I may only get one chance, I'm perfectly fine with the tx heart shot if its all I get, I know the gun/bullet combo and shooter are capable.

Thats my choice, if your choice is a bit more picky on shots, then you can get away with less.

Being that I've had to back up folks on a couple of shots on other game I also tend to go more prepared penetration wise....

The bull I am talking about was a big, old bugger-- F&G aged him a 9 1/2 based on teeth. It was as Brad has pointed out--the thick rubbery hide stopped those bullets and their big mushrooms. I suspect a Partition that lost its core and had a smaller frontal area might have punched through (but I am not sure that would have bought you much.)

I am not a "0ne hole=failure" bullet evaluator. But for me, if I am going to put up with the recoil of a 338 win mag, over the 338-06 or even a 30-06, I am not dropping below 200 gr.