Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Handguns Clocked some Gold Dot 9mm +P

The difference is in the propellants that they both use, but it sould also be noted that there is still quite a bit of difference between a 9mm +P and a .357 magnum.

The 124 grain +P load typically churn 1250fps out of a 4" barrel and the .357 does 1450 out of the same barrel length.

Studdies have shown that there is very little velocity lost from the cylinder gap.

The .357's larger case allows it to use more powder, and more of a slower burning powder, extending the peak pressure point out further, which generates quite a bit more velocity than the 9mm.

if you wanna shoot some stout 9mm check out what buffalo bore has to offer

http://www.buffalobore.com/index.php?l=product_list&c=26

124 grain hp at 1300 fps, or the 115 grain at 1400fps and 500#'s of energy. IMO these loads turn the 9mm into a serious man stopper.

Those are rated as +P+ for which there is no SAAMI specification. Are you sure you want to depend your life on a cartridge for which there is no standard? You get those velocities only one way, more pressure, and to get those velocities, it takes a lot more pressure, (assuming they're being 100% honest in the reporting of the velocities).

So if you want a .357 magnum, I�d recommend just buying a .357 magnum. If you need more power than the 9mm produces, then buy a .40 or .357 Sig, or something bigger than a 9mm. Going to a cartridge with absolutely no standards FOR DEFENSE just doesn�t make sense to me.

I�ve treated a lot of gunshot victims over the years and I�ve come to learn that handguns are just impotent. If they don�t go down with a square hit to the chest with a 9mm, the +P or +P+ isn�t going to make a bit of difference. The fact is, some go down and some don�t. For those that don�t, you continue to shoot, simple as that.

The +P�s and +P+ cartridges radically increase wear on your pistol, are generally less reliable, have more noise, muzzle flash and muzzle blast; and mostly make a nuisance of themselves�I just don�t see the attraction at all.

with the robust design of the CZ 75 I don't see a problem firing these warmer loads, if shot from a polymer pistol that is where there might be more wear. if an ammo company is willing to risk putting out factory loads and all the liability that goes with that. I am sure there is a margin of safety.

The margin of safety lies between a SAAMI maximum and where the pistol comes apart. Starting comfortably above SAAMI by definition reduces the margin of safety; if you're willing to live with that, so be it.

As for wear to your pistol, the polymer pistols are actually much more forgiving of such things than steel or aluminum.

That's what I understand too. I've seen some of those high pressure loads do some bad things to some pretty good 9mm pistols.
In fact, I've seen hot loads do bad things to lots of other handguns as well. One of the big reasons why I don't fool with anything over the listed maximums and usually use handloads that're just under, or even quite a bit under, that depsnding on the intended use.
If you need more power, buy a gun chambered for a hotter round. E

So, Kevin, if you don't trust +P in the 9mm (which I can sympathize with), what loads would you recommend for a small 9mm like a Kahr? Or are in the "it really doesn't matter which one" camp?

I ask because I'm thinking about switching from my K40 to a P9 or CW9.

Speer GoldDot 115s should work very well for the Kahr.

I have some Winchester 127gr SXT JHP +P+ rounds that I used in a Kimber Stainless II that I owned. Even in a full size robust steel pistol, the +P+ rounds were used sparingly. I wont use them in my aluminum frame CZ75 PCR, but will use the +P rounds, also sparingly.

Besides the Speer Gold Dot 124gr JHP +P, I can also recommend the Georgia Arms 9mm +P loading using the same GD bullet. I use a lot of their 10mm ammo and it is very high quality, using starline brass. 124gr, 9mm +P is rated at only 1200 fps.

[bleep]'n hell, just looked at the GA site and they want $46.50 plus shipping per 100. I use to snub those generic boxes of Winchester and Remington 115 gr jhp's, next chance I get, I am going to grab some and see how they perform.

I�m probably much different from many others because I�ve treated a wide variety of gun shot wounds; enough to know that this bullet vs. that bullet is a complete waste of time. I recommend you use a JHP design from one of the major manufacturers with a name you can trust. The bullet will do its part, the rest is on you. Having a bullet that will give �X� amount of �Y� type performance over the other bullet will never make a bit of difference in a gun fight; bullet placement will make all the difference.

That is kind of the impression I got from reading a few of your posts - it's pretty much like real estate: location, location, location.

Thanks to you, VA and rkamp for your responses.

Kevin,
I have run a lot of plus P plus U.S. Border Patrol Federal ammo through my Browning HP over the years and no damage, and I like the idea that it is visably more effective than anything else that I have used or seen used in the 9mm..??

I might also call your attention to "Handgun Stopping Power" The Definitive study by Evan P Marshall and Edwin J Sanow. It is the last word in what works in that its based on actual accounts of stopping power by specific calibers and bullet combinations over a very long time period. It is very informative..

I agree that placement is all important in a gun fight or on animals, but caliber, bullet construction, bullet cross section, and velocity all play a part in stopping a gunfight. There is more to a gun fight than killing the opponent, stopping the opponent from agressive behavior plays a big part in your survival..

I feel that you have over simplified the subject to a degree. Like you in some respects I have seen a number of gunshot wounds and gun fights although I have not treated the wounds, but I have observed treatment and many autopsys..I can only add that I have seen a number of failures with well known factory H.P. ammunition. Some of it fails to expand.

If you have not heard the Marshal, Sanow so called definitive study has been shown to be the fraud that it was all along. If you followed thier graph over time some rounds had a better than 100% in one shot stops. That is what happens when you try to make things they way you want them instead of the way they are.

Dr. Martin Fackler President of the International Wound Ballistic Assn. calls Marshal the "bullet salesmans" instead of useing his name

While I don�t say derogatory things about Marshall & Sanow, I�m most certainly not a believer in their methodology (we could have a whole discussion on why that is, but that�s another discussion). Yeah, I�ve put it in simplistic terms. Bullets do repeatable and predictable physical damage, period. The un-predictable part is the person being shot or shot at; will they respond in a way we would like them to? Sometimes they will and sometimes they won�t. But whether they will or won�t doesn�t come down to +P or even .45 vs. 9mm; it comes down to whether or not the person being shot is willing to go down since pistol bullets cant MAKE people go down (absent neuro interruption).

So you see, it really is that simple. You shoot them, and they either go down or they don�t. If they don�t go down, you continue to shoot until they do.

Stoking my pistol with a round that is clearly operating above what the manufacturer designed it to shoot just isn�t appealing to me. Maybe I�m wrong, and maybe all those law enforcement agencies know more than the engineers who created the gun. But I�ve been there and seen first had what bullets do and do not do. As a result, I�m completely unimpressed with handgun cartridges in general as a means of stopping an aggressor, and I�m 100% convinced that a guy who doesn�t go down with a center shot from a standard pressure 9mm will go down with a +P or +P+; all my observations and experience tells me so, and I can�t ignore that.

Stop making sense, dude.

My bad...

KevinGibson & Atkinson

Isn't a 9mm Plus P Plus load like trying to turn a .30/06 into a .300 Magnum? Obviously ammo over the years can achieve higher velocities. I have to wonder about the additional wear and tear from the higher ammo pressures in a gun. Maybe replacing of handguns with a new ones sooner, rather than later, is a good idea?

One of the things I'd point out is that Mr. Atkinson mentioned HP loads that don't open. Back in the 70's such loads were common among the various 9mm and especially the .45 ACP, 230 gr. stuff.
But that was long ago. Now, very few loads fail to expand properly.
From what I can gather, due to alot of the BG's being on something when they are doing bussiness, the current thinking is if he can take aone or two hits center mass and still fight, you need to go for a head shot. Something that is really tough to do when the whistle blows. E

The thing to remember is that definition of insanity�continuing to do the same thing but expecting a different result. There are some agencies these days who are going back to the lower abdomen shot when the center chest doesn�t work. Others teach to go for the head shot. I think it doesn�t really matter as long as you mix it up a bit with things don�t come to a screeching halt after pulling the trigger once or twice.

The danger of shooting the head is that it�s a small target and the cranium is armored and handgun cartridges won�t always crack the skull. The up side; if you do crack the skull, chances are, the game is over immediately.
The danger of shooting the lower abdomen is that there�s a lot of space there and you could make holes and never hit anything vital. On the positive side, you could hit the aorta or break the pelvis; both of which will lead to very rapid incapacitation. So both have their strengths and drawbacks.

CumminsCowboy......I would like to ask you what poly pistol you ran your 9mm Luger +P+ loads through and does the pistol manufacturer recommend using such loads???

Now getting 500-lbs of kinetic energy from a 9mm Luger + P + load does NOT make it a "man stopper" by any means. I have shot goats with using self-defense ammo in the 9mm Luger + P loads and also .40 cal Smith & Wesson loads and those goats shot at under 12 feet did NOT just flop over dead by any means. Goats average weight was 95-lbs.

To me a STOPPER caliber starts with a .41 magnum or better yet the .44 magnum but very few people can really handle such a revolver and I only knew of one LEO, who carried such a weapon 25 years ago, him being a deputy in a rual county in the Ozarks of Missouri. Why even he later went back to the model 1911 with 230 grain hardball ammo.