Page 1 of 12 1 2 3 ... 11 12 >
Topic Options
#3895200 - 03/14/10 04:06 PM Why a 45-70?
duck911 Offline
Campfire Regular

Registered: 02/09/07
Posts: 978
Loc: Loveland, CO
Hi all,

I'm in the market for my next rifle and had never really considered the 45-70. Bu then I saw this rifle:

http://www.marlinfirearms.com/Firearms/bigbore/1895GBL.asp

And I have to say, I really like the way it looks blush

I am typically a small caliber guy and was considering a 17 Remington to round out my battery, but I already have a 17 FB. What I do NOT own is a lever action, or, a BP caliber (or for that matter, anything larger than a .270 and a 30 carbine in a rifle case)

I do hunt big game, and might warm up enough to consider using this rifle for that purpose.

But more than that, it looks like a hoot to reload for and shoot, especially loading some powder puff loads for ringing steel. I don't really need a valid excuse to buy another rifle, but I am interested in what you all have to say about the 45-70.

What say ye??

thanks,

--Duck911

Top
#3895215 - 03/14/10 04:11 PM Re: Why a 45-70? [Re: duck911]
atkinsonhunting Offline
Campfire Tracker

Registered: 03/04/01
Posts: 6954
Loc: Filer, Idaho, USA
I wouldn't...
_________________________
Ray Atkinson
www.atkinsonhunting.com
ray@atkinsonhunting.com
208-326-4120

Top
#3895230 - 03/14/10 04:14 PM Re: Why a 45-70? [Re: atkinsonhunting]
MontanaMarine Offline
Campfire Outfitter

Registered: 09/25/01
Posts: 7958
Loc: Canyon Ferry, Montana
It's just one of those things. The 45-70 is a piece of Americana. I recently bought a Marlin 1895GBL myself. Working on a pet load that will push a 405gr cast at 1300-ish fps.

I'd say go for it. Upon shooting it you will either love it or not. If not, you can probably move it along for about what you have into it.
_________________________
Shane

Top
#3895241 - 03/14/10 04:17 PM Re: Why a 45-70? [Re: duck911]
Huntaria_Setters Offline
Campfire Regular

Registered: 11/26/07
Posts: 1408
Loc: Western Kentucky
I have a ball with mine. Its a Miroku Winchester Highwall with tang sights. For target practice I shoot 300 gr. bullets at 1500 fps at my gong at 300 yards (as far as I can shoot on my range) and its lots of fun to see the gong swing, then a second later hear CLINK.

I killed this buck with one shot at 125 yards using 350 gr. Hornady's. He didn't go very far.


Top
#3895246 - 03/14/10 04:19 PM Re: Why a 45-70? [Re: MontanaMarine]
Oregon45 Online   content
Campfire Outfitter

Registered: 08/19/06
Posts: 9574
Loc: Oregon
I agree with MontanaMarine, a 405gr cast bullet at moderate velocity is a gentle load that hits pretty darn hard. Elmer Keith rated the original 405gr 45-70 load in the Winchester 1886 extra light as one of the best "woods loads" available, and back then the bullets didn't get much over 1400fps, if that.

Top
#3895267 - 03/14/10 04:24 PM Re: Why a 45-70? [Re: atkinsonhunting]
logcutter Offline
Campfire Tracker

Registered: 02/06/04
Posts: 5757
Loc: Central Idaho
Originally Posted By: atkinson
I wouldn't...


grin grin grin

I agree with almost everything you say except this topic....Go figure!!!

Jayco

Top
#3895268 - 03/14/10 04:24 PM Re: Why a 45-70? [Re: MontanaMarine]
JohnMoses Offline
Campfire Kahuna

Registered: 05/23/09
Posts: 18213
Loc: Mississippi
Marlin makes a good lever action. The 45-70 is a classic old round.

With practice, you can take critters out to 200 yds. with good loads. Hornady's LEVERevoluton ammo is nice.

It's a good combination for hunting most anything within reasonable ranges.

JM
_________________________

www.pronghornsling.com

Top
#3895277 - 03/14/10 04:27 PM Re: Why a 45-70? [Re: duck911]
luv2safari Offline
Campfire 'Bwana

Registered: 12/31/06
Posts: 13044
Loc: NW NV & Far NW MT
+1 with Ray...Why???

It sure is limiting and not suited to a lot of hunting, but it does make a hunter out of you...so...why not? wink
_________________________
Hunt with Class and Classics

Top
#3895278 - 03/14/10 04:27 PM Re: Why a 45-70? [Re: JohnMoses]
eh76 Offline
Campfire Oracle

Registered: 12/17/06
Posts: 47265
Loc: North of Liberalism in Wyoming
Originally Posted By: JohnMoses
Marlin makes a good lever action. The 45-70 is a classic old round.

With practice, you can take critters out to 200 600 yds. with good loads. Hornady's LEVERevoluton ammo is nice.

It's a good combination for hunting most anything within reasonable ranges.

JM


PM sharpsguy......


Top
#3895291 - 03/14/10 04:29 PM Re: Why a 45-70? [Re: JohnMoses]
logcutter Offline
Campfire Tracker

Registered: 02/06/04
Posts: 5757
Loc: Central Idaho
Originally Posted By: JohnMoses
Marlin makes a good lever action. The 45-70 is a classic old round.

With practice, you can take critters out to 200 yds. with good loads. Hornady's LEVERevoluton ammo is nice.

It's a good combination for hunting most anything within reasonable ranges.

JM


Really???

This nice bull was shot with a 45-70 with a muzzle velocity of 1600 fps from Garrett Cartridges at 275 yards...No your weapon and everything is kool!!!!



Jayco

Top
#3895312 - 03/14/10 04:33 PM Re: Why a 45-70? [Re: logcutter]
JohnMoses Offline
Campfire Kahuna

Registered: 05/23/09
Posts: 18213
Loc: Mississippi
Don't know what your getting at Log Cutter. I like the rifle and the cartridge..???

You must have misunderstood my post.

Best,

JM
_________________________

www.pronghornsling.com

Top
#3895315 - 03/14/10 04:34 PM Re: Why a 45-70? [Re: JohnMoses]
logcutter Offline
Campfire Tracker

Registered: 02/06/04
Posts: 5757
Loc: Central Idaho
Sorry John..I did not want it to sound like it did..I like your post but I am poor at putting my words on paper...The dinosour years still prevail to some old dogs.

Jayco. grin

Top
#3895320 - 03/14/10 04:35 PM Re: Why a 45-70? [Re: logcutter]
rattler Online   sleepy
Campfire Oracle

Registered: 11/07/03
Posts: 25939
Loc: NE Montana
ive got one of the original Guide Guns.....its my fun gun and does more duty as a gopher(richardsons ground squirrels) rifle than anything.....405 grain hard cast makes a hell of a "bunker buster" when the lil bastards start getting smart and holding tight to their holes....i have lil use for a bench gun like alot do for prairie dogs.....most my shooting is done off hand or using improvised rests with a long shot being a couple hundred yards, 25 feet isnt an uncommon shot.....it also tends to be the gun that lives beside the bed year round, dont have a short barreled shotgun and its handy in the tight spaces of the house....
_________________________

http://northeastmontananews.com/
A serious student of the "Armchair Safari" always looking for Africa/Asia hunting books

Top
#3895324 - 03/14/10 04:37 PM Re: Why a 45-70? [Re: rattler]
JohnMoses Offline
Campfire Kahuna

Registered: 05/23/09
Posts: 18213
Loc: Mississippi
Bunker Busters...I bet that is fun. grin

JM
_________________________

www.pronghornsling.com

Top
#3895342 - 03/14/10 04:43 PM Re: Why a 45-70? [Re: JohnMoses]
rattler Online   sleepy
Campfire Oracle

Registered: 11/07/03
Posts: 25939
Loc: NE Montana
my brother calls it cheating when we got a bet going on numbers killed grin he tried using the SKS with FMJ's to keep up but they dont do near aswell as that big chunk of lead at easy on the shoulder velocities....the 22's gets a lil boring after awhile and our uncle wants the sod rats near his roads thinned out....gotta do something to keep it interesting...
_________________________

http://northeastmontananews.com/
A serious student of the "Armchair Safari" always looking for Africa/Asia hunting books

Top
#3895368 - 03/14/10 04:51 PM Re: Why a 45-70? [Re: JohnMoses]
logcutter Offline
Campfire Tracker

Registered: 02/06/04
Posts: 5757
Loc: Central Idaho
My apologies to John Moses again.I am not here to get more enemies but to relay only my experiences compared too...

I have been lucky enough to know two people with pressure equipment for the 45-70..One with a pressure barrel with no throat and one with strain equipment hooked to a Marlin barrel.

There readings are virtually the same on some hot manufactured loads.

I also have one of the very first Guide Guns produced and you can get 2300 fps from a 300 grain Nosler.(The discontinued one) and be right at 40,000 PSI.

My other loads of a 350 North Fork can reach right at 2150 fps in my Guide Gun and be at 450 Marlin pressures...

The 425 and 525 grain cast hit 1850 fps(425) and 1515 fps (525) at below 35,000 PSI out of a Guide Gun.

This is all with "only" the right components and I never stray.

Jayco

Top
#3895444 - 03/14/10 05:17 PM Re: Why a 45-70? [Re: luv2safari]
jwp475 Offline
Campfire Kahuna

Registered: 04/24/05
Posts: 18250
Loc: USA
Originally Posted By: luv2safari
+1 with Ray...Why???

It sure is limiting and not suited to a lot of hunting, but it does make a hunter out of you...so...why not? wink



Your experience has been negative with the 45-70?
_________________________
Originally Posted By: Jeff_O
….they WAY over penetrate on deer...


Top
#3895595 - 03/14/10 05:53 PM Re: Why a 45-70? [Re: jwp475]
logcutter Offline
Campfire Tracker

Registered: 02/06/04
Posts: 5757
Loc: Central Idaho
Some quick history on the 45-70 and 450 Marlin.The 45-70 remains at a SAAMI 28,000 for the old trapdoors and all the 45-70 bullets are made to perform at that level except the new one like the A-Frame and North Fork.

Then came the 450 Marlin at 43,500 PSI SAAMI( to match what some handloaders have done with the modern 45-70) in the very same action(1895) with a belted case so it cannot be used in old trap door rifles.Speer claims the Winchester 45-70 brass holds 7 more grains of powder than Hornady 450 Marlin brass..No lecture here.Make of it what you want.

Rick Jamison was the first to take the 1895 action with the 450 Marlin with some of the better bullets out of a pressure barrel.(NOTE>>The 300 Nosler loads with RL-7 are with the old colored RL-7 Not the new)

Some impressive numbers for a levergun!!!!!!



Jayco

Top
#3896048 - 03/14/10 07:41 PM Re: Why a 45-70? [Re: duck911]
1minute Offline
Campfire Kahuna

Registered: 01/28/01
Posts: 15391
Loc: Burns/Hines, Oregon, USA
A great cartridge that can handle any North American land animal and most of what one finds on other continents too.

Factory rounds with 405's are pleasant to shoot and move at about 1200+ fps. Hop the same slug up to 1,700+ with reloads, and it will get ones attention when it goes off. Can't wait to bag an elk and maybe a bison with mine. A neat piece of history too.

I have a 1895 Marlin guide gun with a scout scope. Extremely easy to pack around, but I think things are out of the park for me past about 250 yds unless I did some serious science.


Edited by 1minute (03/14/10 07:44 PM)
_________________________
1Minute

Top
#3896263 - 03/14/10 08:41 PM Re: Why a 45-70? [Re: 1minute]
EvilTwin Offline
Campfire Kahuna

Registered: 11/01/04
Posts: 17192
Loc: Upstate NY
45-70 is a great round and a first class critter killer and it will do so at ranges that would embarass a lot of people. I suspect the guys who consider it a failure used hardcast bullets. I'd have to wonder if these fellas would use a 458 WinMag with solids for killing a moose or elk. I seriously doubt it. They are for penetrating. Hardcast slugs from a 45-70 are penetrators. Use one with a 20:1 bullet at 1400 and it will both penetrate AND expand,very nicely thank you. At that speed it ain't gonna make you recoil shy either. With the right sights it will place a slug accurately at LONG range. Get a 45-70 and with a bit of work, I think you will have lotsa fun and smash any critter you get your sights on.
_________________________
Be afraid,be VERY VERY afraid
ad triarios redisse
My Buddy eh76 speaks authentic Frontier Gibberish!

Top
#3896478 - 03/14/10 10:53 PM Re: Why a 45-70? [Re: EvilTwin]
WranglerJohn Offline
Campfire Ranger

Registered: 09/30/08
Posts: 1682
Listen pilgrim, the .45-70 is the preferred big bore around here. I got three of 'em, two Browning M-1886's and one Siamese Mauser. Deer die just from looking down the bore, that's how deadly they are. Pig and bear drop like they was pole axed - whatever a pole ax is. Why I shot end for end through a derelict'56 Ford at the ranch once, punched the trunk lock, took the clock out of the dashboard and knocked the carburetor into smithereens. Loaded with 53 grains of 3031 and a 500 grain cast bullet it'll shoot clear through a bison, ricochet off a flat rock and open a case of tall necks back in camp. Try that with a .17 caliber pee-wee.

Top
#3896498 - 03/14/10 11:08 PM Re: Why a 45-70? [Re: WranglerJohn]
Gene L Offline
Campfire Guide

Registered: 06/14/06
Posts: 4773
Loc: Georgia
I've got an older Marlin, pre-side safety 1895, I think, and it's great with jacketed bullets. It's got Micro-Groove rifling and I haven't had much luck with limited experience with lead.

My bud has a Guide Gun, and it's very accurate and taken lots of deer. His had the ported barrel and sent it back for a non-ported barrel that's not nearly as loud.

Marlin makes a strong rifle. I don't load mine very hot, as I enjoy the use of my shoulder, and neitehr does my friend. With a hot load, which I've shot a time or two, it's a bit too much for me in the recoil department.
_________________________
Not many problems you can't fix
With a 1911 and a 30-06


Top
#3896523 - 03/14/10 11:46 PM Re: Why a 45-70? [Re: duck911]
EthanEdwards Offline
Campfire Oracle

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 32914
Loc: Four States
I like the looks of that gun. I've had eight 45-70's, including three Marlins. They were all good guns and the caliber is an excellent one, having the ability to be loaded way up or way down. You've heard about the hot loads being nearly up there with a .458, but the caliber is equally capable of 45 Colt velocities that are downright gentle to shoot. I've shot a squirrel and a big old cow with the round and both were DRT. I can't recommend it highly enough. The worst thing I can think of about it is the fact that Wal Mart doesn't carry it around here. Lots of places do though and WM doesn't carry 45 Colt either.
_________________________
I like my guns just like Obama likes his immigrants...undocumented.

Top
#3896528 - 03/15/10 12:04 AM Re: Why a 45-70? [Re: jwp475]
luv2safari Offline
Campfire 'Bwana

Registered: 12/31/06
Posts: 13044
Loc: NW NV & Far NW MT
Originally Posted By: jwp475
Originally Posted By: luv2safari
+1 with Ray...Why???

It sure is limiting and not suited to a lot of hunting, but it does make a hunter out of you...so...why not? wink



Your experience has been negative with the 45-70?


It isn't very suited for my area with the longer shots we have to take often, but I have never had any negative experiences with the 45-70. It just isn't an open country round, compared to the later smokeless-based rounds or even the 30-40 Krag... wink

I love to play with my Trapdoor Cadet Mdl, however.
_________________________
Hunt with Class and Classics

Top
#3896914 - 03/15/10 07:14 AM Re: Why a 45-70? [Re: luv2safari]
Big_Redhead Offline
Campfire Tracker

Registered: 12/21/03
Posts: 5751
Loc: Michigan
It appears to be in vogue for African hunters to malign the 45-70. Maybe they just can't deal with the fact that they spent so much hard-earned money on ridiculously expensive rifles when a five-hundred-dollar Marlin levergun has been proven effective against all the species on this planet. That would make me a little sick too.

Duck911, get the 45-70. They are just a bunch of fun to shoot and load for, and they kill game extremely well.

By the way, the range limitation resides with the hunter, not the caliber. A 45-70 will kill game at any range the shooter can hit the vitals. The same is true for the 30-378 magnum or 50 BMG. Words to the effect that the 45-70 is a short-range cartridge is pure horse pucky.
_________________________
Our God reigns.
Harrumph!!!
I often use quick reply. My posts are not directed toward any specific person unless I mention them by name.

Top
#3896922 - 03/15/10 07:21 AM Re: Why a 45-70? [Re: luv2safari]
jwp475 Offline
Campfire Kahuna

Registered: 04/24/05
Posts: 18250
Loc: USA
Originally Posted By: luv2safari
Originally Posted By: jwp475
Originally Posted By: luv2safari
+1 with Ray...Why???

It sure is limiting and not suited to a lot of hunting, but it does make a hunter out of you...so...why not? wink



Your experience has been negative with the 45-70?


It isn't very suited for my area with the longer shots we have to take often, but I have never had any negative experiences with the 45-70. It just isn't an open country round, compared to the later smokeless-based rounds or even the 30-40 Krag... wink

I love to play with my Trapdoor Cadet Mdl, however.



A proper search will turn up results that show the 45-70 was used to take game in the old days out to 600 yards and beyound. The round is not the limiting factor, the skill level of the shooter is.
_________________________
Originally Posted By: Jeff_O
….they WAY over penetrate on deer...


Top
#3896928 - 03/15/10 07:22 AM Re: Why a 45-70? [Re: Big_Redhead]
jwp475 Offline
Campfire Kahuna

Registered: 04/24/05
Posts: 18250
Loc: USA
Originally Posted By: Big_Redhead
It appears to be in vogue for African hunters to malign the 45-70. Maybe they just can't deal with the fact that they spent so much hard-earned money on ridiculously expensive rifles when a four-hundred-dollar Marlin levergun has been proven effective against all the species on this planet. That would make me a little sick too.

Duck911, get the 45-70. They are just a bunch of fun to shoot and load for, and they kill game extremely well.

By the way, the range limitation resides with the hunter, not the caliber. A 45-70 will kill game at any range the shooter can hit the vitals. The same is true for the 30-378 magnum or 50 BMG. Words to the effect that the 45-70 is a short-range cartridge is pure horse pucky.



I have a friend that has taken 4 Elephants with Contenders. The first one was with a 45-70 that he borrowed from JD Jones and it worked to perfection for Ray


Edited by jwp475 (03/15/10 08:45 AM)
_________________________
Originally Posted By: Jeff_O
….they WAY over penetrate on deer...


Top
#3896937 - 03/15/10 07:29 AM Re: Why a 45-70? [Re: Big_Redhead]
curdog4570 Offline
Campfire 'Bwana

Registered: 02/18/01
Posts: 13408
Loc: North texas usa
If a man is gonna own three centerfire rifles , the third one should be an 1895 in 45 70 with a reciever sight [ for young guys ] or a low power variable scope for us older ones . And you really ought to reload for it .
_________________________
Never holler whoa or look back in a tight place

Top
#3896954 - 03/15/10 07:36 AM Re: Why a 45-70? [Re: curdog4570]
Huntz Offline
Campfire Tracker

Registered: 10/28/07
Posts: 5299
Loc: N.E.Wisconsin
I prefer The 45-70 in a #1.The Marlin does not balance as well in my hands.With 62 grs. of N133 I am getting 2,350 with a 350 gr. Boolit.Some serious stuff right there.
_________________________
The older I get,the better I wuz!!!!

Top
#3896974 - 03/15/10 07:41 AM Re: Why a 45-70? [Re: logcutter]
acesandeights Offline
Campfire Regular

Registered: 03/21/08
Posts: 1154
Loc: So Oregon
Sounds like you have plenty of rifles in plenty of calibers if everything is all rounded out. Problem I see is you'll likely get addicted to the lever-action type rifle and there go all the others. I don't have any bolt guns anymore, since getting hooked on levers. I have a shotgun, a semi-auto .22 that my dad just gave me, and the rest are levers. So, what'll likely happen in a few years is you'll have a safe/gun cabinet full of lever actions in various calibers and be having almost the same conversation, except it'll go something like, "Should I get a Marlin 39A? I've got a lever-action in every caliber and Marlin is coming out with a stainless 39A. What say ye?"
_________________________
Deserve's got nothing to do with it.

TripleA RV in Medford, OR SUCKS

Top
#3897009 - 03/15/10 07:53 AM Re: Why a 45-70? [Re: Huntz]
achildofthesky Offline
Campfire Ranger

Registered: 10/22/07
Posts: 1990
Loc: Amongst the swaying palms...
Got to love the Marlin 1895's and the 45-70. Relatively inexpensive and big boom. if you shoot anything with it anywhere near properly, it will die. Roundball plinker loads at pennies a round? Check. Thermo nuclear, snot flinger loads with the requisite softball sized fireball at the end of the barrel? For sure. One gun that will surely do it all ifn' you can too.

I have had 2 and will have another soon. Unfortunately for me, the only 45-70 I have now is a NEF handi rifle and it is a great gun at a dirt cheap price (< $175). The only potential problem I see isn't with the round itself but catching marlinitus and then owning just one isn't going to cut it.

Buy it, you will like it.

Top
#3897012 - 03/15/10 07:54 AM Re: Why a 45-70? [Re: duck911]
Klikitarik Online   sick
Campfire 'Bwana

Registered: 08/12/03
Posts: 11526
Loc: Alaska - N63º, W162º
There was a time when I owned three CF rifles; a Rem 788 223, a Winchester 670 in 30-06, and a Marlin 45-70. I lost that Marlin and picked up a few more rifles. I have another Marlin, a Guide Gun, again which I rarely hunt with; it's more generally a bear gun for boat and camp. I do enjoy hunting with a 45-70 though; this single shot:


The distance was only 40 yards; the temperature was the only limiting factor: -25º F. Didn't affect either rifle or cartridge.

Same rifle again at half the distance (and 50º warmer):



And then there was this critter at 246 yards, ranged after the drop-dead shot; same rifle:



And, if the 45-70 was my only rifle, I'd probably be half decent with it. As with anything, it all depends more on the guy holding the tool than the tool itself. Killing stuff with cartridge rifles is actually pretty darned simple. If you already own two CF rifles, you probably owe yourself one that is plain pure fun, and a Marlin lever gun can be. Yeah there is some recoil. grin But they can be made to work.
_________________________
[size=9][/size]

Top
#3897063 - 03/15/10 08:10 AM Re: Why a 45-70? [Re: acesandeights]
JohnMoses Offline
Campfire Kahuna

Registered: 05/23/09
Posts: 18213
Loc: Mississippi
I'm sure a 45-70 will kill at suprising ranges. If you are going to be taking shots past 200-250 yds. there are better choices IMHO.

One of the best Factory offerings in this caliber has a drop of -28" @ 300yds. and that is sighting the rifle in 3" high at 100 yds.

Anything further than that, you'll have an arc like a mortar round, making hits to the vitals alot more difficult to pull off.

It's a great rifle and caliber, but it ain't no long range rig.

That's just a fact.

JM

_________________________

www.pronghornsling.com

Top
#3897099 - 03/15/10 08:19 AM Re: Why a 45-70? [Re: acesandeights]
EthanEdwards Offline
Campfire Oracle

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 32914
Loc: Four States
Originally Posted By: acesandeights
Marlin is coming out with a stainless 39A. What say ye?"


GET OUTA' TOWN! I gots to have one!
_________________________
I like my guns just like Obama likes his immigrants...undocumented.

Top
#3897131 - 03/15/10 08:32 AM Re: Why a 45-70? [Re: acesandeights]
temmi Offline
Campfire Outfitter

Registered: 06/09/06
Posts: 9753
Loc: Texas
I don’t have a 45/70 but I have its cousin the 450 Marlin…

I believe they are both fantastic rounds…

If you keep in mind they are what they are… if you need something more powerful than either can provide… move up to one of the DG 458… (Win, Lott…)don't try to push either one harder.

That seems to be the main bone of contention.

IMO
_________________________
That which does not kill us makes us stronger

Friedrich Nietzsche

Top
#3897142 - 03/15/10 08:36 AM Re: Why a 45-70? [Re: JohnMoses]
logcutter Offline
Campfire Tracker

Registered: 02/06/04
Posts: 5757
Loc: Central Idaho
A Buffalo Bore 300 grain at 2350 fps is more like a 17"+ drop at 300 yards as well as the 300 Nosler at 2367 fps...

Well withing aiming at hair instead of the horizon for an Elk.



But I do agree..There are better choices for 300+ shots although it can be done.

Jayco

Top
#3897147 - 03/15/10 08:39 AM Re: Why a 45-70? [Re: logcutter]
temmi Offline
Campfire Outfitter

Registered: 06/09/06
Posts: 9753
Loc: Texas
Originally Posted By: logcutter
A Buffalo Bore 300 grain at 2350 fps is more like a 17"+ drop at 300 yards as well as the 300 Nosler at 2367 fps...

Well withing aiming at hair instead of the horizon for an Elk.



But I do agree..There are better choices for 300+ shots although it can be done.

Jayco


I agree which is why I say … They are what they are
_________________________
That which does not kill us makes us stronger

Friedrich Nietzsche

Top
#3897193 - 03/15/10 08:51 AM Re: Why a 45-70? [Re: logcutter]
JohnMoses Offline
Campfire Kahuna

Registered: 05/23/09
Posts: 18213
Loc: Mississippi
That would be using hot compressed loads I would imagine.

The fastest 300 gr. load Nosler Manual shows is 2282fps @ 105%.

At 300 yds and further with book max. loads, you do not have the 22" from vitals to backline, as the trajectory of the bullet is arcing giving you a steeper angle of entry, which reduces this area.

Best,

JM
_________________________

www.pronghornsling.com

Top
#3897250 - 03/15/10 09:10 AM Re: Why a 45-70? [Re: JohnMoses]
logcutter Offline
Campfire Tracker

Registered: 02/06/04
Posts: 5757
Loc: Central Idaho
John

The Nosler load is from Real Guns data pressure checked to 38-40,000 PSI while the other load is Buffalo Bores 300 grain Speer Unicore they offer in there factory loads.

http://www.realguns.com/loads/4570.htm

http://www.buffalobore.com/index.php?l=search_list&s[search]=&s[title]=Y&s[short_desc]=Y&s[full_desc]=Y&s[sku]=Y&s[match]=all&s[cid]=35

Jayco

Top
#3897284 - 03/15/10 09:20 AM Re: Why a 45-70? [Re: duck911]
Eremicus Offline
Campfire Kahuna

Registered: 03/01/01
Posts: 18881
Loc: Placerville,CA,USA
While I'm a big fan of Marlin's lever actions, and have seriously considered the .45-70 in one on several occassions, the very heavy recoil of any load with anything like 2000 fps. convinced me to look elsewhere for a hunting rifle.
Now, if ringing steel is what you want, Marlin makes several which are excellent and fun for that. Any of their Cowboy Action Rifles would be my first pick. There is, or was, even a long, heavy .45-70 in that line. Other offerings include the .38 Special, the .44 Magnum and the .45 Colt.
You can also step down a tad to the .444 Marlin. Another round in that same class with a little less recoil at 2000 fps. plus.
As a hunting rifle, I've learned over the years that the critters don't follow my preconcieved game plan by standing around at the ranges and under conditions that allow me to shoot my best.
That's why my iron sighted, heavy cover rifle is a Rem 760 in 30'06. Much easier to reach with than the .45-70. E

Top
#3897311 - 03/15/10 09:25 AM Re: Why a 45-70? [Re: logcutter]
DigitalDan Offline
Campfire Kahuna

Registered: 05/01/04
Posts: 21091
Loc: Yankeetown, Fl
Would be inclined toward the 1895 CB instead 'cause I don't care for the short barrel....and I've seen the CB run with 510 grain paper patch at ~1800 fps. Recoil was firm but not abusive. Sub MOA with optical sights and close enough with a receiver sight the difference is lost in statistical clutter. Fine gun, fine cartridge. Go Long.
_________________________
I am..........disturbed.

Bang! Bang! All the needles in the red!





Top
#3897321 - 03/15/10 09:29 AM Re: Why a 45-70? [Re: DigitalDan]
JohnMoses Offline
Campfire Kahuna

Registered: 05/23/09
Posts: 18213
Loc: Mississippi
Thanks Log Cutter. I did not know that. It certainly improves the trajectory over what info I had.

Best,

JM
_________________________

www.pronghornsling.com

Top
#3897333 - 03/15/10 09:31 AM Re: Why a 45-70? [Re: Eremicus]
logcutter Offline
Campfire Tracker

Registered: 02/06/04
Posts: 5757
Loc: Central Idaho
My hunting rifles are the .270 Win/30-06 and .300 Win Mag as well as the 45-70..Hunting has changed around here and I find myself not hunting clear cuts anf open areas but hunting the deep thick timber where shots rarely exceed the capability of the 45-70, properly loaded.

My son and I fought over who got to use the lighter Guide Gun in the thick stuff while the other the heavier .300 Win Mag or the new to me 30-06.The Guide Gun is a joy to pack in the really thick stuff and the light weight helps after several hours of packing...

The 45-70 actually cost me an Elk this year with my only shot at alittle over 100 yards had a Cow behind the bull and I new it would penetrate the Bull and possibly hit the cow so it lived another year but had I had the '06 with the soft 165 grain Interbond,he would have got a shoulder full with little worry of complete penetration, but thats hunting.

Jayco

Top
#3897457 - 03/15/10 10:04 AM Re: Why a 45-70? [Re: logcutter]
atkinsonhunting Offline
Campfire Tracker

Registered: 03/04/01
Posts: 6954
Loc: Filer, Idaho, USA
I have seen such poor performence with a hot loaded 45-70 with hard cast and Nosler, Hornadys that I am pretty sour on it..I have a number of filmed kills with it and it would make you sick to watch..I even lost a Guide Company because the guide/owner insisted on a one shot kill and we followed a lung shot bull for a half mile waiting on him to die and he wouldn't let the hunter finish him off..I got mad and shot the bull and walked to my truck and went home..I have that one on film.

I used the 45-90 a bit on elk some years ago and it was better when loaded properly, but again I am not impressed with any of those big slow bullets...If I were to use the 45-70 today it would be in a Ruger no. 1 and I would load it to 2000 plus FPS in that strong action, but why, when I can get the same gun in a .458 Win.

Just my opinnion based on my experience with the caliber, but I believe many 45-70 owners have not used the caliber much and just want to believe its effective out of nostalgia, others have apparantly had better luck than I...but thats why we have so many caliber choices, because we all have a right to an opinnion.
_________________________
Ray Atkinson
www.atkinsonhunting.com
ray@atkinsonhunting.com
208-326-4120

Top
#3897531 - 03/15/10 10:26 AM Re: Why a 45-70? [Re: JohnMoses]
jwp475 Offline
Campfire Kahuna

Registered: 04/24/05
Posts: 18250
Loc: USA
Originally Posted By: JohnMoses
I'm sure a 45-70 will kill at suprising ranges. If you are going to be taking shots past 200-250 yds. there are better choices IMHO.

One of the best Factory offerings in this caliber has a drop of -28" @ 300yds. and that is sighting the rifle in 3" high at 100 yds.

Anything further than that, you'll have an arc like a mortar round, making hits to the vitals alot more difficult to pull off.

It's a great rifle and caliber, but it ain't no long range rig.

That's just a fact.

JM




How is that a fact? The 45-70 has been and still used in competition out to 1000 yards and beyound. The old Buffalo hunters would sneek up on a herd at a good vantage point and start shooting as the herd moved away they routinely contunued to knock down Bison to well past 600 yards.

Not a long range cartridge? Maybe not your choice, but it has been and still is used at long range to great effect


In fact I saw a video of a guy that used a vintage Remington Rolling Block with black power loads to hit a target 5 times in row with the open sites at 1140 yards. Impressed me!!


Edited by jwp475 (03/15/10 10:29 AM)
_________________________
Originally Posted By: Jeff_O
….they WAY over penetrate on deer...


Top
#3897570 - 03/15/10 10:36 AM Re: Why a 45-70? [Re: jwp475]
JohnMoses Offline
Campfire Kahuna

Registered: 05/23/09
Posts: 18213
Loc: Mississippi
I'll tell you how.

1. It starts rolling of the table past moderate ranges.

2. Hunters aren't 1000 yd Competition shooters. Do you sight your rifle in 60+ inches high @ 100 yds. to hunt with?

3. That's about all the old timers had to use, so yeah, they shot it.

4. Do you wonder how many wounded Bison ran off gut shot from 600 yds. in the old days?

5. How many guns in this caliber are purchased each year as long range hunting rigs?

A little common sense should be used here. A phucking .22 can go a mile. Just because you can dial in enough elevation to get a bullet over the moon doesn't mean you should be trying to drop it on critters on it's way back to earth.

So save your breath telling me it's a good long range cartridge.

It ain't.

JM
_________________________

www.pronghornsling.com

Top
#3897596 - 03/15/10 10:46 AM Re: Why a 45-70? [Re: JohnMoses]
EvilTwin Offline
Campfire Kahuna

Registered: 11/01/04
Posts: 17192
Loc: Upstate NY
John, one of our Campfire denizens is fully capable of such shooting with the 45 caliber guns bith BPCR and smokeless moderns. He regularly takes large game at pretty impressive ranges with them. He is likely the best game shot with them around. Practice,practice. He uses iron sights to boot. Sharpsguy. The killing power of 45 caliber rifles at range is very impressive. BTW, the buff hunters would intentionally gutshoot the lead cow. She wouldn't run which meant the pod wouldn't run. Second shot was to kill then on down the line. That was their technique.
_________________________
Be afraid,be VERY VERY afraid
ad triarios redisse
My Buddy eh76 speaks authentic Frontier Gibberish!

Top
#3897616 - 03/15/10 10:52 AM Re: Why a 45-70? [Re: EvilTwin]
JohnMoses Offline
Campfire Kahuna

Registered: 05/23/09
Posts: 18213
Loc: Mississippi
As I stated before, I'm sure it is capable in the right hands.

Just because someone who is dedicated and practiced is able to make long shots, does not a good long range caliber make..
He is able to overcome the deficiencies of the cartridge thru skill and practice. Also, He's using a target rifle, not a Marlin Lever gun sighted in at 100 or 200 yds.

As along range hunting caliber, there are much better choices.

Shooting at extreme ranges with a Marlin Guide gun in 45-70 is a risky proposition at best and beyond the capabilities of most of us who hunt.

As far as gut shooting Bison, you may be right. Gut shoot a Whitetail or Elk and he's gonna run and those are the animals people are discussing here.

JM.
_________________________

www.pronghornsling.com

Top
#3897645 - 03/15/10 11:00 AM Re: Why a 45-70? [Re: JohnMoses]
jwp475 Offline
Campfire Kahuna

Registered: 04/24/05
Posts: 18250
Loc: USA
Originally Posted By: JohnMoses
I'll tell you how.

1. It starts rolling of the table past moderate ranges.

2. Hunters aren't 1000 yd Competition shooters. Do you sight your rifle in 60+ inches high @ 100 yds. to hunt with?
3. That's about all the old timers had to use, so yeah, they shot it.

4. Do you wonder how many wounded Bison ran off gut shot from 600 yds. in the old days?

5. How many guns in this caliber are purchased each year as long range hunting rigs?

A little common sense should be used here. A phucking .22 can go a mile. Just because you can dial in enough elevation to get a bullet over the moon doesn't mean you should be trying to hit critters with it on it's trip back to earth.

2-So save your breath telling me it's a good long range cartridge.

It ain't.


JM



A long range hunter would never site his rifle in 60" high at one hundred yards, he would use adjustable sights for the yardage

As the post above mentioned Sharpsguy has taken game I believe out past 600 yards with his Sharps in 45-70


As far asw the 45-70 not being a good long range caliber that is your opinion and is not a fact

Not sure why you would think that some one whoms lively hood depended on putting game on the grounds would be gut shooting them to run off.


Edited by jwp475 (03/15/10 11:04 AM)
_________________________
Originally Posted By: Jeff_O
….they WAY over penetrate on deer...


Top
#3897646 - 03/15/10 11:00 AM Re: Why a 45-70? [Re: duck911]
whelennut Offline
Campfire Guide

Registered: 09/15/06
Posts: 4195
Loc: Minnesota
The 45-70 is a hoot all right!
It is fun to shoot at cement blocks and stuff like that.
The light rifles with heavy loads are punishing.
I would like a Ruger #1 with a heavy octagon barrel about 28" long if I ever bought another one.
This is one cartridge that I might consider using a range finder for! grin
whelennut
_________________________
I like to do my hunting BEFORE I pull the trigger!
There is only one kind of dead, but there are many different kinds of wounded.

Top
#3897661 - 03/15/10 11:05 AM Re: Why a 45-70? [Re: whelennut]
JohnMoses Offline
Campfire Kahuna

Registered: 05/23/09
Posts: 18213
Loc: Mississippi
JWP,

In a Marlin lever guide gun it is a fact.

You are wrong....again.

But keep trying.....

I guess you would have our sniper's using the Marlin guide gun in 45-70.

Dream on..

JM

p.s. Since notmany are shooting bison these days, the thread is concerning game animals such as elk and deer.

They do run when gut shot. Just an FYI,...
_________________________

www.pronghornsling.com

Top
#3897670 - 03/15/10 11:06 AM Re: Why a 45-70? [Re: JohnMoses]
jwp475 Offline
Campfire Kahuna

Registered: 04/24/05
Posts: 18250
Loc: USA
Originally Posted By: JohnMoses
As I stated before, I'm sure it is capable in the right hands.

Just because someone who is dedicated and practiced is able to make long shots, does not a good long range caliber make..He is able to overcome the deficiencies of the cartridge thru skill and practice. Also, He's using a target rifle, not a Marlin Lever gun sighted in at 100 or 200 yds.

As along range hunting caliber, there are much better choices.

Shooting at extreme ranges with a Marlin Guide gun in 45-70 is a risky proposition at best and beyond the capabilities of most of us who hunt.

As far as gut shooting Bison, you may be right. Gut shoot a Whitetail or Elk and he's gonna run and those are the animals people are discussing here.

JM.


If the 45-70 was not up to the task, then dedication and practice would not make it happen
_________________________
Originally Posted By: Jeff_O
….they WAY over penetrate on deer...


Top
#3897681 - 03/15/10 11:09 AM Re: Why a 45-70? [Re: JohnMoses]
jwp475 Offline
Campfire Kahuna

Registered: 04/24/05
Posts: 18250
Loc: USA
Originally Posted By: JohnMoses
JWP,

In a Marlin lever guide gun it is a fact.

You are wrong....again.

But keep trying.....

I guess you would have our sniper's using the mMrlin guide gun in 45-70.

Dream on..



Quote:
You are wrong....again.



Again what you or I or a Sniper may or may not choose is not the question here, now is it?

The 7.62X51 NATO round is our standard military Sniper round, would it be as good chambered and issued in an NEI Handi Rifle?


Edited by jwp475 (03/15/10 11:11 AM)
_________________________
Originally Posted By: Jeff_O
….they WAY over penetrate on deer...


Top
#3897702 - 03/15/10 11:14 AM Re: Why a 45-70? [Re: jwp475]
JohnMoses Offline
Campfire Kahuna

Registered: 05/23/09
Posts: 18213
Loc: Mississippi
Hmmm.

So I guess you could jump in a Stock car and turn a 195 mph lap at Atlanta Motor speedway just like Dale Earnhardt Jr.????

I'd pay to see that. grin

Skill level... it's about taking something to the edge of what it can do.

It's not common place my friend.

So please list all the 400 yd plus kills you know of with a 45-70 marlin (besides the target shooter you mentioned already) and don't say "the Oldtimers" as they had very few other choices.

I'm waiting...

JM
_________________________

www.pronghornsling.com

Top
#3897713 - 03/15/10 11:16 AM Re: Why a 45-70? [Re: JohnMoses]
jwp475 Offline
Campfire Kahuna

Registered: 04/24/05
Posts: 18250
Loc: USA
Originally Posted By: JohnMoses
Hmmm.

So I guess you could jump in a Stock car and turn a 195 mph lap at Atlanta Motor speedway just like Dale Earnhardt Jr.????

I'd pay to see that. grin

Skill level... it's about taking something to the edge of what it can do.

It's not common place my friend.

So please list all the 400 yd plus kills you know of with a 45-70 marlin (besides the target shooter you mentioned already) and don't say "the Oldtimers" as they had very few other choices.

I'm waiting...

JM



Yes skill level is important, but no amount of skill level will get a car to 195 MPH that is not capable of 195MPH is the point

Common place and capability are not one and the same, now is it?


The amount of choices of the old timers and the choice of todays shooters have nothing to do with wheter are not a caliber that is not commonl;y chosen is capable or not, now does it?


Edited by jwp475 (03/15/10 11:19 AM)
_________________________
Originally Posted By: Jeff_O
….they WAY over penetrate on deer...


Top
#3897721 - 03/15/10 11:21 AM Re: Why a 45-70? [Re: jwp475]
JohnMoses Offline
Campfire Kahuna

Registered: 05/23/09
Posts: 18213
Loc: Mississippi
You answer makes no sense, now does it?

1. You are saying that the 45-70 in a Marlin Guide gun is a good LR rifle/caliber set up.

2. You are completely comfortable with the average hunter taking shots at game at 400+ yds with this gun and caliber.

Wow, is all I can say.

I'm still waiting on the list of game taken with this combo at long range......Answer the question.


JM
_________________________

www.pronghornsling.com

Top
#3897724 - 03/15/10 11:21 AM Re: Why a 45-70? [Re: jwp475]
bluesman Offline
Campfire Regular

Registered: 09/19/04
Posts: 1074
Loc: Pittsburgh, Pa
Many - MANY years ago I spent an entire summer casting 500 grain bullets and reloading and shooting an old .45-70 trapdoor Springfield that a friend didn't have much use for. Seems that it bit him as hard on the back end as it did the single doe he killed.

I shot that rifle across a lake in southern New Jersey (Yes - there WAS a time when one could shoot just for the pure fun of it in New Jersey.)that we had actually measured and marked off in 50 yard increments becausae this was also where we hunted the geese and ducks that slid up and down the Atlantic flyway. At the end of the summer I was out of lead and had learned a LOT about long range shooting, range estimation, and bullet drop.

More thhn anything else I learned that the point at which the bullet enters the critter, and what it hits as it courses deep into the interior of the beast, will decide how effective a cartridge is or can be.

I now own only two rifles chambered for this wonderful old cartridge,a Ruger #3 and a custom Siamese Mauser. The Mauser has killed two Cape buffalo with a single round per animal. I was close (70 yards) and both broke the spine. Love those rifles and never learned as much from another rifle as I did from that ancient Trap door.

Like ALL CARTRIDGES, you can learn a bunch of stuff from the .45-70 - so go enjoy it and don't worry who tells you what. Put a 500 grain cast bullet or a 350 grain soft where it belongs and you will, as our ancestors did - make meat.


Terry

Top
#3897734 - 03/15/10 11:22 AM Re: Why a 45-70? [Re: JohnMoses]
jwp475 Offline
Campfire Kahuna

Registered: 04/24/05
Posts: 18250
Loc: USA


I have never stated any particular rifle, since that is another subject in and of itself

I have never stated wheter I am or am not comfortable with what some one eles does or does not do
_________________________
Originally Posted By: Jeff_O
….they WAY over penetrate on deer...


Top
#3897735 - 03/15/10 11:23 AM Re: Why a 45-70? [Re: duck911]
7mm08 Offline
Campfire Regular

Registered: 07/23/03
Posts: 260
If you have a hankering to buy a .45/70 by all means buy one. I bought one to use during MS's primitive weapons season and I love mine. Mine is an H&R single shot and its more accurate than I thought a flat nosed bullet style would be. I've killed a pile of deer with mine and it drops a deer pretty quick leaving a nice sized hole on both sides. The only down side is the range limitations but I can live with that.

Top
#3897741 - 03/15/10 11:24 AM Re: Why a 45-70? [Re: JohnMoses]
jwp475 Offline
Campfire Kahuna

Registered: 04/24/05
Posts: 18250
Loc: USA
Originally Posted By: JohnMoses
You answer makes no sense, now does it?

1. You are saying that the 45-70 in a Marlin Guide gun is a good LR rifle/caliber set up.

2. You are completely comfortable with the average hunter taking shots at game at 400+ yds with this gun and caliber.

Wow, is all I can say.

I'm still waiting on the list of game taken with this combo at long range......Answer the question.

JM
The question has been asked and answered and you refused the answer
_________________________
Originally Posted By: Jeff_O
….they WAY over penetrate on deer...


Top
#3897762 - 03/15/10 11:29 AM Re: Why a 45-70? [Re: jwp475]
JohnMoses Offline
Campfire Kahuna

Registered: 05/23/09
Posts: 18213
Loc: Mississippi
Originally Posted By: jwp475


I have never stated any particular rifle, since that is another subject in and of itself

I have never stated wheter I am or am not comfortable with what some one eles does or does not do



1 guy. I accept that as your answer. 1 guy that wasn't using a marlin lever either. About what I thought....

You are just being argumenative because you know you are just wrong. You are just another bobble head on here who doesn't want to face the facts and won't answer a question when he is painted into a corner.

I saw that on the Optics forum over the weekend.

Not wasting my time with you. You don't want to face the obvious, you just want to defend an idiotic position no matter how indefensible it is.

Bye,

JM







_________________________

www.pronghornsling.com

Top
#3897775 - 03/15/10 11:31 AM Re: Why a 45-70? [Re: JohnMoses]
jwp475 Offline
Campfire Kahuna

Registered: 04/24/05
Posts: 18250
Loc: USA
Originally Posted By: JohnMoses
Originally Posted By: jwp475


I have never stated any particular rifle, since that is another subject in and of itself

I have never stated wheter I am or am not comfortable with what some one eles does or does not do



You are just being arguminative because you know you are as wrong as someone can be. You are just another bobble head on here who doesn't want to face the facts and won't answer a question when he is painted into a corner.

Not wasting my time with you. You don't want to face the obvious, you just want to defend an idiotic position no matter the cost.

Bye,

JM

JM








No you stated as a matter of fact that the cartridge was not a viable long range cartridge and I maintain that is an opinion, not a fact. I stand by that
_________________________
Originally Posted By: Jeff_O
….they WAY over penetrate on deer...


Top
#3897779 - 03/15/10 11:33 AM Re: Why a 45-70? [Re: jwp475]
JohnMoses Offline
Campfire Kahuna

Registered: 05/23/09
Posts: 18213
Loc: Mississippi
Bye.
_________________________

www.pronghornsling.com

Top
#3897786 - 03/15/10 11:36 AM Re: Why a 45-70? [Re: JohnMoses]
jwp475 Offline
Campfire Kahuna

Registered: 04/24/05
Posts: 18250
Loc: USA


There is no dissagreement with the statement "In My Opinion" it is not a vaiable long range cartridge, but to ignore the fact that many have used it succesfully for such is a different animal, isn't it?
_________________________
Originally Posted By: Jeff_O
….they WAY over penetrate on deer...


Top
#3897859 - 03/15/10 12:05 PM Re: Why a 45-70? [Re: jwp475]
logcutter Offline
Campfire Tracker

Registered: 02/06/04
Posts: 5757
Loc: Central Idaho
grin

After the Sandy Hook tests of 1879, a new variation of the .45-70 cartridge was produced, the .45-70-500, which fired a heavier 500 grain (32.5 g) bullet. The heavier 500-grain (32 g) bullet produced significantly superior ballistics, and could reach ranges of 3,500 yards (3200 m), which were beyond the maximum range of the .45-70-405. While the effective range of the .45-70 on individual targets was limited to about 1,000 yards (915 m) with either load, the heavier bullet would produce lethal injuries at 3,500 yards (3,200 m). At those ranges, the bullets struck point-first at roughly a 30 degree angle, penetrating 3 one inch (2.5 cm) thick oak boards, and then traveling to a depth of 8 inches (20 cm) into the sand of the Sandy Hook beach*. It was hoped the longer range of the .45-70-500 would allow effective volleyed fire at ranges beyond those normally expected of infantry fire.[5]

Jayco

Top
#3898133 - 03/15/10 01:47 PM Re: Why a 45-70? [Re: logcutter]
sharpsguy Offline
Campfire Regular

Registered: 05/29/07
Posts: 1154
A 45-70 is a very capable long range hunting cartridge if it is loaded with the proper bullet and the rifle is set up properly AND YOU KNOW HOW TO USE IT.

I have taken a number of animals in Africa with a 45 caliber Sharps, and only two of them have been at less than 200 yards. I shoot 480 to 520 grain bullets and drive them at 1200 to 1350 fps. I have never recovered one of these from any animal I have shot, always getting complete pass throughs.

Since it has been brought up, I will state that I have taken kudu at 302 yards, Black wildebeast at 225 yards, Blue wildebeast at 312 yards, impala at 229 yards, gemsbok at 200 yards, and springbok at 325 and 526 yards. All distances were measured with a Leica CRF 1200 laser rangefinder, and all of the shots are on DVD except the 526 yard springbok. All were first shot hits. However, I do have the two African PHs talking about the 526 yard shot on DVD. Only the two wildebeast required more than one shot.

It is something other people can do, if they want to. I shoot OPEN BARREL SIGHTS WITH A COPPER BLADE FRONT. The sights are a ladder sight that is standard equipment on a Sharps, and I have correlated the staff and marked it in 100 yard increments against the laser rangefinder. If you know the distance and have the sight set correctly--and break a good shot, you will hit with a killing shot. It is that simple. I have in fact had several people come to my range here at the house, and I have shown them how to do it.

I also have a Marlin 1895 Cowboy in 45-70. I have replaced the standard barrel sight with a ladder sight off of '73 Winchester, and correlated this sight with the rangefinder as well. I load the Lyman 457121 bullet at 480 grains and have nine shots at my disposal. I shoot steel animal silhouettes at my range at varying distances from 100 to 500 yards, and I can tell you that an elk at 300 is a dead nuts gimmie with either the Sharps or the Cowboy Marlin with ladder sights. 400 yards is not hard to do. LADDER BARREL SIGHTS as fitted to early Winchesters and Marlins greatly extend the range at which these rifles are capable.

Any of these loads will shoot through TWO INCHES of sun dried oak planking at 800 yards and and you are limited in what you can shoot ONLY BY THE QUALITY OF THE SIGHT PICTURE YOU CAN GENERATE.

Anyone who thinks that a 45-70 is strictly a short range proposition needs to go to a BPCR Silhouette match some time. When you see some guy run 10 pigs at 300 meters, and 7 or 8 turkeys at 424 yards or 8 or 10 rams at 547 yards with a 45-70, it becomes apparent real quick that if you are within a quarter of a mile of some guy with a 45-70 and he wants you, you are in serious trouble. I realize that these guys are using target sights. I have them on a couple of my rifles.

But you need to realize that I know several guys that can hit a gallon milk jug at a quarter of a mile with the barrel sights on their 45-70. I can do it, they can do it, and you can too, if you know how. If you can hit a gallon milk jug, you can hit a deer or elk in the hear/lung area.

IT IS THE SIGHTS that keep today's 45-70s from being long range capable, NOT THE CALIBER. That, and the 400 grain and lighter bullets.







Edited by sharpsguy (03/15/10 02:04 PM)

Top
#3898227 - 03/15/10 02:14 PM Re: Why a 45-70? [Re: sharpsguy]
acesandeights Offline
Campfire Regular

Registered: 03/21/08
Posts: 1154
Loc: So Oregon
I would think it's "sights" or optics that limit the range. If you can see something well enough at 200 yards with open sights you can shoot it with a 45-70 with open sights; however, if you can see it well enough at 300+ with open sights you can shoot it with a 45-70. If you want to scope your 45-70 it becomes a long range gun; although I think long range is a subjective term.
_________________________
Deserve's got nothing to do with it.

TripleA RV in Medford, OR SUCKS

Top
#3898321 - 03/15/10 02:42 PM Re: Why a 45-70? [Re: acesandeights]
sharpsguy Offline
Campfire Regular

Registered: 05/29/07
Posts: 1154
Scoping a 45-70 will force you to hold over the animal when you get beyond your maximum zero range. With the ladder sight, you simply set the sight for the distance--whatever it is. Hold at six o'clock and break the shot. There is no guess work with the ladder sight. You get the distance from the rangefinder, and set the sight. That's it. And it is that quick.

You don't worry about bullet drop or trajectory. That is automatically compensated for when you set the sight. The scope sets limits. The ladder sight sets you free, and the 45-70 and the 500 grain bullet drills through whatever you hit. It is a wonderful combination.


Edited by sharpsguy (03/15/10 02:44 PM)

Top
#3898350 - 03/15/10 02:51 PM Re: Why a 45-70? [Re: acesandeights]
1minute Offline
Campfire Kahuna

Registered: 01/28/01
Posts: 15391
Loc: Burns/Hines, Oregon, USA
Get into the BPCR realm and those folks do amazing things with 45-70's out to a 1000+ yds. That being, they can be a long range unit, but one must make a science out of things to be effective way out there. Iron sights and a precise sight picture are a cinch with nice black and white concentric circles and double aperture sights. Going to extreme ranges on game would probably be better done with good glass on top and a rangefinder in hand. There are scopes and mounts suitable for working at extreme ranges.

I believe it's the August 2007 issue of Reloader that has a wonderful article with pressure data for many many bullet/powder combinations. The author of that article accidently took out two water buffs with a single round from one of his Marlins. A phone call to the publisher and $10 can get you a copy of the magazine.

Again, a neat cartridge that I'd like to drop an elk with.

I'm also tuning up a 45-90 Sharps running a 540 grain slug ahead of black powder, but may need some help to pack that one through the woods after game.


Edited by 1minute (03/15/10 09:36 PM)
_________________________
1Minute

Top
#3898383 - 03/15/10 03:03 PM Re: Why a 45-70? [Re: sharpsguy]
jimmyp Offline
Campfire 'Bwana

Registered: 11/28/03
Posts: 10794
Loc: Georgia
I had one of the longer Marlin 45-70's for a while, I sold it as it seemed heavy to me, and did not seem to offer much more than a 308 as far as killing thin skinned WT deer. For the $600.00 they want for this rifle I would save a bit more and just buy a stainless steel 375 Ruger Alaskan with the 20 inch barrel.
_________________________
"We know voter suppression when we see it"

Top
#3898449 - 03/15/10 03:24 PM Re: Why a 45-70? [Re: jimmyp]
ruger375 Offline
Campfire Regular

Registered: 05/31/07
Posts: 436
Loc: qc, canada
i ve seen one caribou hunter shooting at 325 yards and the other caribou at 55 yards (thanks telemeter) he was using a 45/70 guide gun with "new" lever evolution. the damage on the meat was less than with the 338 win mag 225 grain Nosler parition his friend was using.
just my two cents.

Top
#3898450 - 03/15/10 03:25 PM Re: Why a 45-70? [Re: Big_Redhead]
luv2safari Offline
Campfire 'Bwana

Registered: 12/31/06
Posts: 13044
Loc: NW NV & Far NW MT
Originally Posted By: Big_Redhead
It appears to be in vogue for African hunters to malign the 45-70. Maybe they just can't deal with the fact that they spent so much hard-earned money on ridiculously expensive rifles when a five-hundred-dollar Marlin levergun has been proven effective against all the species on this planet. That would make me a little sick too.

Duck911, get the 45-70. They are just a bunch of fun to shoot and load for, and they kill game extremely well.

By the way, the range limitation resides with the hunter, not the caliber. A 45-70 will kill game at any range the shooter can hit the vitals. The same is true for the 30-378 magnum or 50 BMG. Words to the effect that the 45-70 is a short-range cartridge is pure horse pucky.


I use moderately priced rifles appropriate for the job at hand. Elephants have been killed with a 22, but that doesn't make them elephant guns. So...take a good swipe at me because I mortgage the farm to go to Africa, while you only wish... wink
_________________________
Hunt with Class and Classics

Top
#3898764 - 03/15/10 05:05 PM Re: Why a 45-70? [Re: luv2safari]
CZ550 Offline
Campfire Regular

Registered: 05/11/08
Posts: 843
Loc: Kawartha Lakes, Ontario, Canad...
That the 45-70 is still around and quite popular speaks more to its utility and effectiveness than pure nostalgia, in my view.

I was very big into the fast magnums up to the 340 WBY until I discovered the 45-70 22 years ago... and I've never looked back. My only regret is that it took so long to discover it and find out what it was capable of. My first was an 1895 Marlin, and I've had three other Marlins since.

My current Marlin is the "classic" with nice wood, blued steel, pistol grip and 22" barrel. I've yet to fire a factory cartridge in those 22 years. But I have shot factory bullets from 300-grains to 500-grains. All were plenty accurate. But, personally speaking, I prefer good 400s, or 405s, with flat tips and copper or gilding-metal jackets at a tad over 2000 fps. Then, there's my favorite cast-bullet load: a 465-grain at 1900 fps even. All four of my Marlins would shoot my preferred loads at close to MOA.

As to the range at which a Marlin is capable of easily taking on a moose, for example, I agree with those who say it depends on the shooter AND THE LOAD HE'S FAMILIAR WITH AND SIGHTED-IN FOR if using a scope, which I do on all my rifles. Though a ladder-type on a CB (for instance) makes a lot of sense. It's true, a scope is the limiting factor IF YOU HAVE GOOD EYES! I don't, so at my age I'm compelled to use a scope IF I expect to shoot at 300 yds, for instance. On more than one occasion, I've taken a Marlin or my Ruger #1 loaded for moose to the "Far North" where shots could have been anything up to 600 yards!

I think my current Marlin, which seems more accurate than any previous version, IS capable at 300 yards for moose with my loads, as long as I have a range finder, by simply holding on the hump.

I've also owned a NEF with black composite stock and though ugly it was very accurate. I killed a very nice bl. bear with it and the 465gr cast (1 to 10, tin to lead). The bear, at 70 yds, dropped so fast I initially lost sight of him in the tall grass as the rifle came down from recoil. I was in a tree stand, btw.

My favorite 45-70 is the Ruger No.1 in 45-70 Improved (long-throated). If and when I have to give up my rifles, this will be the last to go. With a Burris fixed 4X it comes in at 7.4 lbs. With sling and 1 in the chamber, plus four on the stock, it breaks 8 lbs even. With the power of a .458 WM, what's there not to like. My current load is a 350 TSX at 2470 fps. That's not max. It will shoot the 300 TSX at 2600 fps, the 350 at 2500 fps, a 400 at 2400, a 450 Swift at 2300 fps and the 500gr Hornady at 2200 fps. So, it's really a .458 WM disguised as a 45-70!

Since I'm now enamored by .458-bore, I must mention that my true .458 WM is the CZ, which I'm also passionate about.

But just in case I come across a coyote at 800 yds, I keep a 300 WM in my closet as well! whistle I still happen to like 300 magnums for some silly reason... laugh

Bob

www.bigbores.ca


Edited by CZ550 (03/15/10 05:17 PM)
_________________________
"You are not entitled to your opinion. You are entitled to your INFORMED opinion. No one is entitled to be ignorant"

-- Harlan Ellison

Top
#3898856 - 03/15/10 05:31 PM Re: Why a 45-70? [Re: duck911]
BigBoreFan Offline
Campfire Regular

Registered: 02/10/04
Posts: 364
I have numerous rifles to hunt deer, boar, and bear, but I always end up with a 45/70. I have several guns in this caliber and I like to hunt with my 1895GS. It is handy and compact and it works well in thick timber. I limit my shots to 200 yards by choice but I do practice with it on my range at 300 yards.

I have found that the two Marlin guide guns that I own shoot well. I have been able to put 5 shots inside 1/2" at 50 yards with a 525 grain hardcast Beartooth Pile Driver. It will shoot 300 grain and 350 grain bullets under 2" at 100 yards. Someone posted here about the 45/70 not being an effective caliber for quick kills. I have found that certain bullets (most 300grain HP) are not designed to be pushed over 2,000fps. These lead core bullets act like varmint bullets when pushed at 2,300 fps. At this velocity the 300 HP will turn the front shoulders of a deer into mush. I have been experimenting with pushing the Barnes 250 and 300 bullets to top velocity in a Ruger #1. My father has reached 2,600 fps with the 250 grain bullet safely from the data in the Barnes reloading book. He used the load to take a decent 8 pointer at 225 yards and it worked very well. The hard cast bullets from Cast Performance and Beartooth are designed to penetrate and penetrate they do.

Buy the 45/70 and if you don't like it, you can always sell it.

Top
#3899208 - 03/15/10 07:12 PM Re: Why a 45-70? [Re: luv2safari]
meddybemps Offline
Campfire Regular

Registered: 01/31/08
Posts: 502
Loc: Mass and Maine
I guess I take the middle road here. I have two .45-70's. My first was part of the intial run Marlin made in 1972. Straight grip and a microgroove barrel. The other is a Number 1 purchased in 1978. I have taken deer and hogs with both. There is no doubt that at the short ranges I used them they were wickedly effective. I have even taken a few woodchucks with the Number 1 -- a few at around 200 yards.I am sure that if you knew where to hold and practiced a bit you could stretch the ranges considerably. Neither of my rifles are set up for long range shooting; I just sight them in a little high at 100 yards and I am pretty much on the money at 150 or a little less. At woods ranges that is fine. A few years ago I spent an afternoon battering a 300 yard plate with a trapdoor Springlield.You could wind your watch and cash your paycheck waiting for the sound of those bullets impacting the target. A 500 grain bullet makes quite a fuss when it arrives on scene.

That said, even though they will toss a bullet one hell of a long way with amazing accuracy, I don't consider the cartridge a long range affair. No question that it can be done. And if it is your thing then be my guest. I am all for it, although it strikes me a slightly incongruous to crank up a ladder sight on a nineteenth century rifle to hit something you have lasered with a twenty-first century rangefinder. Hey, but if that's your thing....
_________________________
Downeast Maine by birth and choice, Massachusetts out of necessity

Top
#3899239 - 03/15/10 07:21 PM Re: Why a 45-70? [Re: atkinsonhunting]
Klikitarik Online   sick
Campfire 'Bwana

Registered: 08/12/03
Posts: 11526
Loc: Alaska - N63º, W162º
Originally Posted By: atkinson
..If I were to use the 45-70 today it would be in a Ruger no. 1 and I would load it to 2000 plus FPS in that strong action, but why, when I can get the same gun in a .458 Win.


The Ruger #1-H in 458 is not the same gun as the Ruger #1-S in 45-70. I rather think you might reconsider that statement if you ever carried and used the #1-S. That caliber is perhaps the most perfectly balanced of the entire #1 series. It makes these single shots an easy love affair. (It's a livelier rifle even than the very similar 9.3x74R due to the latter's extra barrel weight.)
_________________________
[size=9][/size]

Top
#3899337 - 03/15/10 07:51 PM Re: Why a 45-70? [Re: Klikitarik]
bcp Offline
Campfire Guide

Registered: 03/04/05
Posts: 4359
Loc: SW WA
A Ruger 1H in 458 feels like a truck axle with a stock. smile

The 1S 45-70 feels like a quail gun.

Bruce

Top
#3899365 - 03/15/10 07:57 PM Re: Why a 45-70? [Re: Klikitarik]
CZ550 Offline
Campfire Regular

Registered: 05/11/08
Posts: 843
Loc: Kawartha Lakes, Ontario, Canad...
Originally Posted By: Klikitarik
Originally Posted By: atkinson
..If I were to use the 45-70 today it would be in a Ruger no. 1 and I would load it to 2000 plus FPS in that strong action, but why, when I can get the same gun in a .458 Win.


The Ruger #1-H in 458 is not the same gun as the Ruger #1-S in 45-70. I rather think you might reconsider that statement if you ever carried and used the #1-S. That caliber is perhaps the most perfectly balanced of the entire #1 series. It makes these single shots an easy love affair. (It's a livelier rifle even than the very similar 9.3x74R due to the latter's extra barrel weight.)


+1

Bob

www.bigbores.ca
_________________________
"You are not entitled to your opinion. You are entitled to your INFORMED opinion. No one is entitled to be ignorant"

-- Harlan Ellison

Top
#3899370 - 03/15/10 07:58 PM Re: Why a 45-70? [Re: Klikitarik]
reflex264 Offline
Campfire Regular

Registered: 02/06/04
Posts: 938
I am normaly hesitent to post in this sort of threads but this one has a different feel to it. I happen to own several 45-70s but I also happen to own some sorta pricey guns that shoot bigger cartridges. I love them all and I KNOW them all.

I have seen first had what .458" 420gr cast bullets can do to a 1800lbs water buffalo. There just happened to be a PH there when we autopsied it that after the exam said it was bigger boned and heavier built than any cape buffalo he had ever seen. The 420gr cast bullet broke the onside leg, traveled through the lungs and wrecked the offside shoulder joint which kept the beast from taking off after the shot. A second shot was fired into the top of the heart and despite the heart deeling like it was made of leather left a 1.5" tunnel through it before lodging under the offside skin. The blood spewed through the opening over 4' away from the animal. The beast just tipped over. The first shot was taken while the animal trotted. This was the only shot offered in the clear after chasing them for 4 hours. The buff was killed with a .450 Marlin but the load was a ballistic twin to my 45/70 load using the same bullet.




I use 45-70s on a regular basis while shooting depredation permit deer. I have never had a problem hitting deer past 250 yards and most of them are heart shot. I am a firm believer in knowing your rifle. No matter what it is. If you don't like them don't buy one. If you do then grab all of them you can.

I also love my .416s but at some point in time I am sure I will be told I need something bigger. I am already working on that though... reflex264


I
_________________________


.264 barrel current number of shots:2122

Top
#3899375 - 03/15/10 08:00 PM Re: Why a 45-70? [Re: reflex264]
reflex264 Offline
Campfire Regular

Registered: 02/06/04
Posts: 938
By the way one of my rifles is a Ruger #1 45-70 and I agree. It is a very lively and handy rifle capible of deivering a lot of power from a light package. reflex264
_________________________


.264 barrel current number of shots:2122

Top
#3899378 - 03/15/10 08:03 PM Re: Why a 45-70? [Re: reflex264]
reflex264 Offline
Campfire Regular

Registered: 02/06/04
Posts: 938


bullet # 1 broke the leg bone and got the front of the lungs before lodging in the offside shoulder.
bullet # 2 took out the heart and lungs and lodged under the offside skin, actualy in the skin.
bullet # 3 is an unfired 420gr Crater
_________________________


.264 barrel current number of shots:2122

Top
#3899582 - 03/15/10 09:32 PM Re: Why a 45-70? [Re: CZ550]
meddybemps Offline
Campfire Regular

Registered: 01/31/08
Posts: 502
Loc: Mass and Maine
I mentioned a couple posts ago that I have a Number 1 in .45-70 along with an older Marlin. I shot them a lot back in the 70's and early 80's. I still have them, but don't shoot them much any more. Frankly, I got tired of getting kicked out from under my hat with the heavy loads. Elmer Keith's old load of a 400 grain bullet and 53 grains of 3031 shot well. But damn, it kicked. No wonder the old boy used to write about getting a "gun headache." Just looked and I can't find my chrono records on that one but it was right around 1800 fps if I remember. Out of those light rifles it was like making love to a porupine -- satisfying but it hurt, especially out of the Marlin. Well, I figured that you really don't have a set of cajones until you get up to the 500 grain bullets. So I played around with 500 grain Hornadys and stiff loads of 3031 out of the 1-S. These ran over the screens at an honest 1800 fps. Talk about recoil!

After playing with those kind of loads for a few years, I pretty much gave up on the 400 and 500 grain bullets as being too much of a good thing and standardized on the 300 grain bullet -- Hornady, Remington, Sierra -- wtih 48 grains of IMR 4198. These clocked right at 1950 fps according to my notes and were a whole lot more pleasant to shoot. But I missed the heavy bullets, but I just didn't want to deal with the rcoil any longer. It's probably an age thing, but getting the crap kicked out of me, my hat knocked off and my shooting glasses dumped on the ground every time I pulled the trigger is not my idea of fun anymore.

At about that time I was in one of the local gun emporiums when I came across a really nice Number 1 in .458. It occurred to me that this might be the ultimate .45-70. I bought it. And while I have pushed a few heavy loads through it, I mainly shoot .45-70 level loads through it. Damn thing shoots clover leaf groups with about anything I push through it. It's a whole lot more fun to shoot than the .45-70s and does just the same thing. Not exactly the lively handling rifle the 1-S is, but for those of us who love the .45-70 it's proven to be a good solution to the recoil issues that keep the .45-70's in the back of the safe.

I agree with the previous posters that the Ruger 1S is a nice handling rifle. If anything, the Number 1 in .458 is ponderous and a bit much for hauling around for long treks in the steep hills. Not sure I would compare the 1-S to a quail gun though -- unless you shoot 3" magnum slugs out of yours.




_________________________
Downeast Maine by birth and choice, Massachusetts out of necessity

Top
#3899610 - 03/15/10 09:41 PM Re: Why a 45-70? [Re: meddybemps]
bcp Offline
Campfire Guide

Registered: 03/04/05
Posts: 4359
Loc: SW WA
I find it a lot more pleasant to shoot Trapdoor-level loads in my 45-70's. No need to fill the case just because the room is there.

Bruce

Top
#3899786 - 03/16/10 12:41 AM Re: Why a 45-70? [Re: bcp]
Ready Offline
Campfire Guide

Registered: 12/21/08
Posts: 4649
To the OP:

I say: "go for it".







On the GBL - looks to me like the Guide Gun should have been buid the first place. Extended Mag, Laminated Stock, big lever.

I wonder why they insist on those sights though.

Imagine that thing from the factory with XS-Sights.

Its not hord - but them companies never do go the last yard.


Edited by cmg (03/16/10 12:41 AM)
Edit Reason: link fixed
_________________________
...aim.

Top
#3900085 - 03/16/10 06:18 AM Re: Why a 45-70? [Re: luv2safari]
Big_Redhead Offline
Campfire Tracker

Registered: 12/21/03
Posts: 5751
Loc: Michigan
Originally Posted By: luv2safari
Originally Posted By: Big_Redhead
It appears to be in vogue for African hunters to malign the 45-70. Maybe they just can't deal with the fact that they spent so much hard-earned money on ridiculously expensive rifles when a five-hundred-dollar Marlin levergun has been proven effective against all the species on this planet. That would make me a little sick too.

Duck911, get the 45-70. They are just a bunch of fun to shoot and load for, and they kill game extremely well.

By the way, the range limitation resides with the hunter, not the caliber. A 45-70 will kill game at any range the shooter can hit the vitals. The same is true for the 30-378 magnum or 50 BMG. Words to the effect that the 45-70 is a short-range cartridge is pure horse pucky.


I use moderately priced rifles appropriate for the job at hand. Elephants have been killed with a 22, but that doesn't make them elephant guns. So...take a good swipe at me because I mortgage the farm to go to Africa, while you only wish... wink


luv2safari,

I have no desire to take a swipe at you or anyone else here. If my post was offensive to you, I apologize.

You are correct that I wish to go on more hunts. If I were younger and in better health, I would not hesitate to mortgage the farm to do so. But I hope to retire one day and still have a house to live in and enough money to take my loving wife on a trip or two.

Congratulations on your African hunts. Please share some stories with me so I may hunt elephant vicariously.
_________________________
Our God reigns.
Harrumph!!!
I often use quick reply. My posts are not directed toward any specific person unless I mention them by name.

Top
#3900459 - 03/16/10 08:30 AM Re: Why a 45-70? [Re: sharpsguy]
jwp475 Offline
Campfire Kahuna

Registered: 04/24/05
Posts: 18250
Loc: USA

Dave King has taken hundreds of Deer on crop deprivation permits with the 308 win which works very well out to 600 yards at 700 yards Dave has also taken a few but at this distance the 308 is running out of stream with a 175 grain bullet. A 45-70 at 700 yards and well beyound, with those 500 or so grain bullet will still pass completely through them and kill quickly. The heavy bullets carry a lot of momentum and penetration, plus the large caliber leave a good size wound channel and is not velocity dependant to do so
_________________________
Originally Posted By: Jeff_O
….they WAY over penetrate on deer...


Top
#3901557 - 03/16/10 02:07 PM Re: Why a 45-70? [Re: meddybemps]
sharpsguy Offline
Campfire Regular

Registered: 05/29/07
Posts: 1154
I think you'll find that a load of 36 grains of 3031 and a 405 grain cast FN bullet will be a pleasant load to shoot in the Ruger No.1 or the 1895 Marlin It gives about 1300 fps give or take, and will blow through a hog or elk like so much cheese.

The trick is to have an IMPACT VELOCITY around 1200 to 1220 fps which keeps the nose from flattening on impact and allows the bullet to penetrate. It gives a big hole in and a big hole out and a dead animal without destroying a lot of meat.

My pet load in my Marlin is either the 457193 Lyman FN at 420 grains or the 457121 Lyman FN at 480 grains and 70 grains of 3f black powder. You're looking at 1250 fps and LIGHT RECOIL with the black powder. With the 480 grain bullet, you shoot through both shoulders of a 1600 pound bull bison at 84 yards, DRT. With the ladder sight, the 480 grain bullet is good to 500 yards and beyond in the Marlin. Just sayin'...


Edited by sharpsguy (03/16/10 02:09 PM)

Top
#3904397 - 03/17/10 10:35 AM Re: Why a 45-70? [Re: sharpsguy]
Whitworth1 Offline
Campfire Regular

Registered: 06/25/08
Posts: 1355
Loc: Virginia
Great thread!

Irrefutable proof.....

Dang, where did John Moses go?
_________________________


Semper Fidelis

Top
#3906065 - 03/17/10 06:58 PM Re: Why a 45-70? [Re: Big_Redhead]
luv2safari Offline
Campfire 'Bwana

Registered: 12/31/06
Posts: 13044
Loc: NW NV & Far NW MT
Originally Posted By: Big_Redhead
Originally Posted By: luv2safari
Originally Posted By: Big_Redhead
It appears to be in vogue for African hunters to malign the 45-70. Maybe they just can't deal with the fact that they spent so much hard-earned money on ridiculously expensive rifles when a five-hundred-dollar Marlin levergun has been proven effective against all the species on this planet. That would make me a little sick too.

Duck911, get the 45-70. They are just a bunch of fun to shoot and load for, and they kill game extremely well.

By the way, the range limitation resides with the hunter, not the caliber. A 45-70 will kill game at any range the shooter can hit the vitals. The same is true for the 30-378 magnum or 50 BMG. Words to the effect that the 45-70 is a short-range cartridge is pure horse pucky.


I use moderately priced rifles appropriate for the job at hand. Elephants have been killed with a 22, but that doesn't make them elephant guns. So...take a good swipe at me because I mortgage the farm to go to Africa, while you only wish... wink


luv2safari,

I have no desire to take a swipe at you or anyone else here. If my post was offensive to you, I apologize.

You are correct that I wish to go on more hunts. If I were younger and in better health, I would not hesitate to mortgage the farm to do so. But I hope to retire one day and still have a house to live in and enough money to take my loving wife on a trip or two.

Congratulations on your African hunts. Please share some stories with me so I may hunt elephant vicariously.


You, Sir are 1st Class in my opinion. cool If I ever get the herns to go back one last time, I would love to have you along with me, so we could swap great lies. wink wink
_________________________
Hunt with Class and Classics

Top
#3906610 - 03/17/10 10:47 PM Re: Why a 45-70? [Re: acesandeights]
Ak1 Offline
Member

Registered: 01/10/10
Posts: 55
They are very popular here in Alaska. Yet I don't know any one that has them for their main "hunting rifle". I carry a 1895 Marlin 45-70 quite a bit in the summer and one is some times in the wall tent in the fall. It is "customized". Has a 20" barrel, holds 6 405 gr. Kodiak Bonded Core bullets over 54 grains of H322. Has the XS Sight Systems Receiver Sight and a good recoil pad. I have had it for years and like it. I have never shot a critter with it. I know it will kill any thing up here but when I go hunting I take a .338 or 30-06.

Top
#3906727 - 03/18/10 04:09 AM Re: Why a 45-70? [Re: Ak1]
jimmyp Offline
Campfire 'Bwana

Registered: 11/28/03
Posts: 10794
Loc: Georgia
I don't disagree that a 45-70 is a wonderful old round that can be used at amazing distances to take animals of all size and shape. It puzzles me as to why there was ever an interest in developing bottle neck rifle cartridges at all! After all we defeated the Spanish and their 7 x 57 Mauser's using 45-70's and 30-40 Kraigs! I am beginning to think I need another one of these rifles..just because! smile
_________________________
"We know voter suppression when we see it"

Top
#3906965 - 03/18/10 06:34 AM Re: Why a 45-70? [Re: jimmyp]
logcutter Offline
Campfire Tracker

Registered: 02/06/04
Posts: 5757
Loc: Central Idaho
Some people just hate certain calibers and there is no fixin it in there minds..I have my calibers I wouldn't own if someone gave me one, and the 45-70 has it's.

My three ain't going anywhere infact my son is throwing in his 45-70 Guide Gun this morning to go work in Elk City for a few days as his Taurus(24-7) 45 acp, is jamming again.Makes a great rack gun..

Jayco

Top
#3907356 - 03/18/10 08:43 AM Re: Why a 45-70? [Re: logcutter]
djs Offline
Campfire Kahuna

Registered: 01/18/06
Posts: 17115
Loc: Virginia
Why buy a 45-70? Because it is effective, tested and .... it is cool!

Top
#3907593 - 03/18/10 09:44 AM Re: Why a 45-70? [Re: logcutter]
luv2safari Offline
Campfire 'Bwana

Registered: 12/31/06
Posts: 13044
Loc: NW NV & Far NW MT
Originally Posted By: logcutter
Some people just hate certain calibers and there is no fixin it in there minds..I have my calibers I wouldn't own if someone gave me one, and the 45-70 has it's.

My three ain't going anywhere infact my son is throwing in his 45-70 Guide Gun this morning to go work in Elk City for a few days as his Taurus(24-7) 45 acp, is jamming again.Makes a great rack gun..

Jayco


I love Elk City and Dixie!! How is the elk population this year?

BTW, I don't hate the 45-70...just not crazy about it for my needs and country. It does make a fantastic mountain lion gun, however. cool
_________________________
Hunt with Class and Classics

Top
#3907665 - 03/18/10 10:01 AM Re: Why a 45-70? [Re: luv2safari]
logcutter Offline
Campfire Tracker

Registered: 02/06/04
Posts: 5757
Loc: Central Idaho
Quote:
I love Elk City and Dixie!!


I do also.I wanted to move there several years ago and got out voted by the wife and kid.I used to log there and haul logs into the old mill,there.I have been there three times in the last week getting firewood so I am going to move up there in a month or so to get wood/fish and chase critters.My sons best buddy grew up there and his Mom,whom lives there, is always calling them for work up there,like today.

As far as the Elk go,I did have to wipe Elk poop off my tennis shoes this last trip when my Lewis Chainsaw winch bit the dust. grin

Jayco

Top
#3909924 - 03/18/10 08:55 PM Re: Why a 45-70? [Re: Whitworth1]
Huntz Offline
Campfire Tracker

Registered: 10/28/07
Posts: 5299
Loc: N.E.Wisconsin
Originally Posted By: Whitworth1
Great thread!

Irrefutable proof.....

Dang, where did John Moses go?



I think he is licking his wounds. smirk
_________________________
The older I get,the better I wuz!!!!

Top
#3913565 - 03/19/10 11:04 PM Re: Why a 45-70? [Re: Big_Redhead]
jimbo202 Offline
Member

Registered: 08/09/07
Posts: 69
Originally Posted By: Big_Redhead
It appears to be in vogue for African hunters to malign the 45-70.


http://www.leverguns.com/articles/lupo/lupo.htm

Top
#3913602 - 03/20/10 12:01 AM Re: Why a 45-70? [Re: jimbo202]
nsaqam Offline
Campfire Kahuna

Registered: 05/01/08
Posts: 16540
Loc: Hermantown MN
The LRF makes all of this long range shooting with the 45-70 possible.
At any sort of range over 400 yards any bullet from a 45-70 has such a steep trajectory that even a small difference in range estimation causes a miss or a poor hit.
Very very few people are good enough at judging ranges beyond 300 yards with the necessary accuracy WITHOUT A LRF.

Shooting at silhouettes at KNOWN distances is relatively easy if you are familiar with your trajectory and your ladder sight is accurately set up.

Setting up a ladder sight expertly does nothing if you can't judge the range to the elk within 50 yards of the actual range because there is no time to hit it with a LRF or you don't have a LRF.

That is one of the basic advantages to a high velocity, flat trajectory cartridge, range estimation isn't as critical.

JM was and is right, for most folks, there are far better long range HUNTING cartridges available.


Edited by nsaqam (03/20/10 12:04 AM)
_________________________
The Chosin Few November to December 1950, Korea.
I'm not one of the Chosin Few but no more remarkable group of Americans ever existed.

Top
#3913953 - 03/20/10 06:55 AM Re: Why a 45-70? [Re: nsaqam]
ColdCase1984 Offline
Campfire Ranger

Registered: 01/27/09
Posts: 2168
Loc: Heart of Tennessee, Plateau of...
I remember Elmer Keith extolling the virtues of the Ruger No. 1S back in the early '70s. Believe he said one guide school or service had its employees all packing Ruger Super Blackhawks and Ruger No. 1S .45/70?

I have a No 1H in .375 that I killed a couple of deer with last season I'd love to trade for a 1S in .45/70.

As far as long range shots, Jeff Quinn had a piece on his e-zine awhile back about having a Leupold custom turret installed on a Scout Scope with his loads dope.

I still ain't taken my ported GG to my friend to have it bobbed, but it's coming. A .45/70 GG would make an excellent home defense weapon; just put a light on it. People think a 230 gr. JRN or HP .451 pill is the stuff, but a 300 JHP at 1,850 would probably smack a bit harder.

I may scope the bobbed GG it if I don't get a 1S. Have had Ashley GRs on it since 2000, never used the factory sights.

Kinda dig the idea of a Cowboy with a ladder sight, if it would work with my aging eyes. I find the Cowboy better balanced to my hands than the GG.

sharpsguy, any reason for a ladder vs. a tang aperture?


Edited by ColdCase1984 (03/20/10 06:56 AM)
_________________________
“(Name withheld) stated that due to him recently losing his job and another incident involving his neighbors and a ‘game of naked darts’, there was a lot of tension in the home.” Police Report

Top
#3914025 - 03/20/10 07:20 AM Re: Why a 45-70? [Re: ColdCase1984]
sharpsguy Offline
Campfire Regular

Registered: 05/29/07
Posts: 1154
There are several advantages for the ladder over the tang aperture. One is the tang aperture is fragile and easily damaged. Another is that it is much slower to adjust for varying distances than the ladder with the sliding leaf. Yet another is that the tang aperture is just that--an aperture. That means that everything is centered up on the sight picture, and you can't "fudge" the front blade up or down for a slight, instantaneous adjustment for impact if you need to. But another big reason is that the aperture sight does not work as well in really low light as does the open notch and blade of the ladder sight. With the copper penny front sight and the ladder, I have shot coyotes in moonlight. You simply can't do that with an aperture.

I haven't shot matches competitively in a couple of years, but as a result of that experience I have several rifles with the target tang sights. I quickly discovered years ago that these sights do not work as well for hunting as the buckhorn and blade ladder sights that come as standard on a Sharps. The early Winchesters and Marlin lever guns had the ladder sights as well, and for good reason--they work.

I also experimented with a folding tang "hunting aperture" rear sight that is quicker to adjust than the mechanical vernier style sight. With these, you simply loosen the eyepiece and slide it up and down for the desired elevation. These, too, are much too slow to use in the hunting field, and have the disadvantage of being both fragile and in the way.

ALL of the original Sharps buffalo rifles I have examined have the buckhorn ladder and blade front sight. These guys hunted and shot over varying distances for a living, and this is the sight set up favored by them.

After I figured out how they were using their sights, I understood why they did it that way. It is simply the quickest, easiest, and most durable set up going.



Edited by sharpsguy (03/20/10 12:00 PM)
Edit Reason: grammar correction

Top
#3914425 - 03/20/10 09:50 AM Re: Why a 45-70? [Re: sharpsguy]
atkinsonhunting Offline
Campfire Tracker

Registered: 03/04/01
Posts: 6954
Loc: Filer, Idaho, USA
If you have used the 45-70 successfully, then your doing something right, and I suggest you keep on using what works for you..I understand it will work fine if you know what your doing, and if you are a hunter, not just in name but ability.

I also have a few kills on film with clients using hot loaded 45-70s and they would be good ammo for the anti hunters. There desire for a one shot kill was a disaster to the elk, they wanted to wait until he died as he wobbled around for 20 minutes or more, then I shot him, and they got mad.....thus my distrust of the caliber for the once a year hunter, and those that just want to prove a point. al I do love the old Winchester 1886s, 71s and 94s and I am guilty of hunting with sub calibers such as the 25-35, 30-30 and 250-3000 that I have used on elk..I know they are not an ideal elk calibers, but they have worked for me and none are in the power range of th 45-70..I just get close and place my shot or shots in which case they work. If used properly with common since, they 45-70 is an elk rifle. I just have had some bad experiences and perhaps I am taking it out on the caliber instead of the shooter. I will conceed to that extent.


Edited by atkinson (03/20/10 09:55 AM)
_________________________
Ray Atkinson
www.atkinsonhunting.com
ray@atkinsonhunting.com
208-326-4120

Top
#3914501 - 03/20/10 10:14 AM Re: Why a 45-70? [Re: atkinsonhunting]
whelennut Offline
Campfire Guide

Registered: 09/15/06
Posts: 4195
Loc: Minnesota
I could tell the same story about a 7mm Magnum on black bear!

It is the Indian that matters not the arrow.
_________________________
I like to do my hunting BEFORE I pull the trigger!
There is only one kind of dead, but there are many different kinds of wounded.

Top
#3914515 - 03/20/10 10:20 AM Re: Why a 45-70? [Re: whelennut]
logcutter Offline
Campfire Tracker

Registered: 02/06/04
Posts: 5757
Loc: Central Idaho
Quote:
I could tell the same story about a 7mm Magnum


So could I but that would ruffle more feathers than I want to deal with today. grin

Jayco

Top
#3914741 - 03/20/10 11:48 AM Re: Why a 45-70? [Re: logcutter]
AussieGunWriter Offline
Campfire Guide

Registered: 05/31/05
Posts: 4666
The .45/70 is a useful cartridge for the hunter that can stalk or timber hunt. The ballistics are there, the competence is there and the history is there, both in age and the number of animals taken over that time.

This simply means that when someone says it is not good for whatever reason, they are simply stating lack of first hand knowledge with the cartidge.

The .30/06 is a competent 300 yard cartridge and more, and if you learn it's capabilities, the drop out to even 500 yards is not impossible, more than plausible, and again, the history is there in length of years and the number of animals taken over that time.

A thread is well worth skipping when it is clogged with negative comments from experts who recite over an over a single issue that is obviously relating to bullet placement.

I reread Jack Lotts story about the infamous cape buffalo that tossed him back in 1959 and created so much inspiration for the experts that followed. I will comment no more on this, other than to suggest reading Jack's own words on where the bullet struck. The article is floating around on this web site.

Placement is always the arbitor on cartridge competence which is why the denigrators contradict themselves when they cite in other threads the competence some very small cartridges demonstrated in their hands and due to their skill.

If a .45/70 is such a lousy elk cartridge, why has the 7x57, 270, 25/06, (shall I keep reducing the power?) ,243, .300 Savage, 25/35 enough.

JW
_________________________
What I offer, is yours to keep, yours to use, yours to ignore. The freedom to choose, is what matters to me most.

The only way to improve a .30/06, is to clean it once in a while.


Top
#3915173 - 03/20/10 03:02 PM Re: Why a 45-70? [Re: AussieGunWriter]
Vic_in_Va Offline
Campfire Guide

Registered: 05/30/02
Posts: 4821
Animals could really give a hoot about headstamp. You do your part and pick a proper bullet, you'll have meat.

Top
#3915227 - 03/20/10 03:24 PM Re: Why a 45-70? [Re: WranglerJohn]
Reloder28 Offline
Campfire Outfitter

Registered: 03/09/06
Posts: 8563
Loc: Deer Park, Tx
Originally Posted By: WranglerJohn
Pig and bear drop like they was pole axed - whatever a pole ax is.


pole·ax or pole·axe (plks)
n.
1. An ax having a hammer face opposite the blade, used to slaughter cattle.
2. A medieval battle-ax consisting of a long shaft ending in an ax or a combination of an ax, hammer, and pick.
tr.v. pole·axed, pole·ax·ing, pole·ax·es
To strike or fell with or as if with a poleax: "When a gang of doves circled above the flowing water and swooped in to feed, he poleaxed the leader with a clean head shot" (William Hoffman).
_________________________
"Who don't do dat?"

Top
#3915242 - 03/20/10 03:28 PM Re: Why a 45-70? [Re: EthanEdwards]
Reloder28 Offline
Campfire Outfitter

Registered: 03/09/06
Posts: 8563
Loc: Deer Park, Tx
Originally Posted By: ColeYounger
I like the looks of that gun. I've had eight 45-70's,.....but the caliber is equally capable of 45 Colt velocities. I can't recommend it highly enough....and WM doesn't carry 45 Colt either.


Well at least you have your priorities straight. Gotta love those 45's !!!!
_________________________
"Who don't do dat?"

Top
#3918462 - 03/21/10 01:38 PM Re: Why a 45-70? [Re: atkinsonhunting]
jwp475 Offline
Campfire Kahuna

Registered: 04/24/05
Posts: 18250
Loc: USA
Originally Posted By: atkinson
If you have used the 45-70 successfully, then your doing something right, and I suggest you keep on using what works for you..I understand it will work fine if you know what your doing, and if you are a hunter, not just in name but ability.




Poor bullets mean poor performance, great bullets mean great performance. That fact hold true for all calibers even the great Nitro Express big bores
_________________________
Originally Posted By: Jeff_O
….they WAY over penetrate on deer...


Top
#3918993 - 03/21/10 04:26 PM Re: Why a 45-70? [Re: jwp475]
maddog Offline
Campfire Tracker

Registered: 02/25/04
Posts: 5571
Loc: Indiana
Whew, just got done reading all 11 pages of this thread. I was out of town hunting hogs with my son. I bought the Guide Gun in 2003. I have used a .45-70 for every out of state/country hunt I've made since then. If it was legal, I'd use it to hunt deer, here in Indiana. I've hunted with my Marlin Guide Gun, in Tennessee, Texas, Idaho, and RSA. I've harvested hogs, bear, and 7 head of African plains game with the ole girl. My go to load is a 300 gr. nosler partition @ 1950 fps. To the origional poster, yeah get one, you will love it. BTW, here's what I shot with the 45-70 last week, and the meat is great!



I've hunted deer and other big game for over 30 yrs. My longest shot ever was a lasered 186 yds, taken with....the 45-70, on a Texas hog. I just love the cartridge.

maddog


Edited by maddog (03/21/10 04:28 PM)

Top
#3919409 - 03/21/10 05:56 PM Re: Why a 45-70? [Re: maddog]
crossfireoops Online   content
Campfire Oracle

Registered: 01/06/05
Posts: 45222
Loc: Southeastern AZ
Soulful post, Maddog,

...and to the point.

GTC
_________________________
Member, Clan of the Border Rats













Top
#3920841 - 03/22/10 05:13 AM Re: Why a 45-70? [Re: crossfireoops]
maddog Offline
Campfire Tracker

Registered: 02/25/04
Posts: 5571
Loc: Indiana
Yep, for what I can still hunt, both physicaly and monetarily, the .45-70 can do it all. Hell, I may try it on lopes, in WY., next yr.grin

maddog


Edited by maddog (03/22/10 05:13 AM)

Top
#3920884 - 03/22/10 05:35 AM Re: Why a 45-70? [Re: logcutter]
arffdog875 Offline
Campfire Regular

Registered: 08/19/09
Posts: 520
Loc: Grand Junction, CO
Duck911... I have the same gun you are looking at, it shoots great still working on loads for it with both the 405 grain hardcast and 300 Nosler partions. I plan to keep it open sights for bear hunting in the thick heavy brush. I did find out that marlins have a little problem with the hornady lever evalutions, they are a little long and cause feeding problems. I read on another site marlins has the part to fix this problem for around $10. BTW this rifle makes for a great camp gun... had some problems with the two legged critters while camping, it solved that problem really quick! I give this rifle 2 thumbs up!!!!

Top
#3921068 - 03/22/10 06:32 AM Re: Why a 45-70? [Re: duck911]
writing_frog Offline
Campfire Regular

Registered: 10/16/08
Posts: 1407
Loc: France

Why not? Fun to shoot, can loaded BP power or more powerful than a 450Marlin, exists in a lot of different firearms,lot of bullets shape and toughness, good for most game in Europe or the USA, even some African games or Australian ones. Part of history of your country, good and bad,easy to handload...
Then why do look for reason to buy one. I you want it buy it. Passion is the word: the heart has reasons that reason ignore (Pascal). Own four of them 2 1886 and one 1895 plus a Shiloh and an original 1885 in 45-90. Need no excuse for that.
_________________________

Experience is a lantern, carried in our back, only lightening already walked path. (Confucius)

Top
#3921100 - 03/22/10 06:43 AM Re: Why a 45-70? [Re: maddog]
EthanEdwards Offline
Campfire Oracle

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 32914
Loc: Four States
Originally Posted By: maddog
Whew, just got done reading all 11 pages of this thread. I was out of town hunting hogs with my son. I bought the Guide Gun in 2003. I have used a .45-70 for every out of state/country hunt I've made since then. If it was legal, I'd use it to hunt deer, here in Indiana. I've hunted with my Marlin Guide Gun, in Tennessee, Texas, Idaho, and RSA. I've harvested hogs, bear, and 7 head of African plains game with the ole girl. My go to load is a 300 gr. nosler partition @ 1950 fps. To the origional poster, yeah get one, you will love it. BTW, here's what I shot with the 45-70 last week, and the meat is great!



I've hunted deer and other big game for over 30 yrs. My longest shot ever was a lasered 186 yds, taken with....the 45-70, on a Texas hog. I just love the cartridge.

maddog


Maddog your post done convinced me. I'm out of a 45-70 right now but it's officially on the list of what to get...soon. Right behind a Garand and one of them new stainless 39A's.
_________________________
I like my guns just like Obama likes his immigrants...undocumented.

Top
#3921234 - 03/22/10 07:28 AM Re: Why a 45-70? [Re: EthanEdwards]
maddog Offline
Campfire Tracker

Registered: 02/25/04
Posts: 5571
Loc: Indiana
Cole, don't matter whether ya git a ruger #1, H&R Handi, or any of the Marlins, they're all fun! Got a 39A....but its blued, bought in 1974, and prolly has killed 500+ squirrels.

maddog

Top
#3921636 - 03/22/10 09:21 AM Re: Why a 45-70? [Re: maddog]
EthanEdwards Offline
Campfire Oracle

Registered: 11/04/05
Posts: 32914
Loc: Four States
I agree maddog. I've had a bunch of different 45-70's. They were all fun in their way.
_________________________
I like my guns just like Obama likes his immigrants...undocumented.

Top
#3921745 - 03/22/10 10:01 AM Re: Why a 45-70? [Re: EthanEdwards]
444Matt Offline
Campfire Tracker

Registered: 02/05/04
Posts: 5536
Loc: Alabama
"its the indian not the arrow"

I like that quote. I really like the 4570, hits hard, leaves a heck of a blood trail, comes in a rifle platform that fits me very well (the marlin guide gun). I like the ability to load it up or down, very versitle that way.


I like old rounds, the 45acp, the 30-06, 45/70 those are my kinda things. I like the 1911, the marlin 1895, and bolt actions I'm warming up to. I drive a '89 gmc with a TBI 350. I like things that have proven themselves over the years and that are easy to work on should the need arrise. Funny thing is I'm 28 and all my peers are running bolt actions in the new ultra supper short magnums with huble telescope like sights and driving brand new trucks they take to a shop just to get the oil changed. Not my style, but To each their own.
_________________________
Act justly, love mercy, walk humbly with your God.

Top
#3921813 - 03/22/10 10:28 AM Re: Why a 45-70? [Re: MontanaMarine]
the_shootist Offline
Campfire Kahuna

Registered: 05/21/03
Posts: 18837
Loc: NW Ontario, Canada
Originally Posted By: MontanaMarine
It's just one of those things. The 45-70 is a piece of Americana. I recently bought a Marlin 1895GBL myself. Working on a pet load that will push a 405gr cast at 1300-ish fps.I'd say go for it. Upon shooting it you will either love it or not. If not, you can probably move it along for about what you have into it.


I am using 25 grains of AA5744 with my home cast 407 gr (wheel weights - water quenched) and getting very close to 1300. Very accurate even out to 100 yards and beyond. Easy on the shoulder too.
_________________________
"Keep thy heart with all diligence; for out of it are the issues of life." (Prov 4:23)

Brother Keith


Top
Page 1 of 12 1 2 3 ... 11 12 >


Moderator:  RickBin, SYSOP 
CLICK HERE for HUGE SAVINGS on SWAROVSKI OPTICS at CAMERA LAND!
Support Our Sponsors 1
Who's Online
260 registered (257_X_50, 12savage, 358Norma_fan, 243Win, 35 invisible), 732 Guests and 294 Spiders online.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Support Our Sponsors 2
Forum Stats
50603 Members
72 Forums
636945 Topics
9140275 Posts

Max Online: 4366 @ 10/05/10 09:36 AM
Support Our Sponsors 3









Copyright © 2000-2013 24hourcampfire.com, Inc. All Rights Reserved.