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Originally Posted by jwp475


I have never stated any particular rifle, since that is another subject in and of itself

I have never stated wheter I am or am not comfortable with what some one eles does or does not do



1 guy. I accept that as your answer. 1 guy that wasn't using a marlin lever either. About what I thought....

You are just being argumenative because you know you are just wrong. You are just another bobble head on here who doesn't want to face the facts and won't answer a question when he is painted into a corner.

I saw that on the Optics forum over the weekend.

Not wasting my time with you. You don't want to face the obvious, you just want to defend an idiotic position no matter how indefensible it is.

Bye,

JM








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Originally Posted by JohnMoses
Originally Posted by jwp475


I have never stated any particular rifle, since that is another subject in and of itself

I have never stated wheter I am or am not comfortable with what some one eles does or does not do



You are just being arguminative because you know you are as wrong as someone can be. You are just another bobble head on here who doesn't want to face the facts and won't answer a question when he is painted into a corner.

Not wasting my time with you. You don't want to face the obvious, you just want to defend an idiotic position no matter the cost.

Bye,

JM

JM








No you stated as a matter of fact that the cartridge was not a viable long range cartridge and I maintain that is an opinion, not a fact. I stand by that



I got banned on another web site for a debate that happened on this site. That's a first
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There is no dissagreement with the statement "In My Opinion" it is not a vaiable long range cartridge, but to ignore the fact that many have used it succesfully for such is a different animal, isn't it?



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grin

After the Sandy Hook tests of 1879, a new variation of the .45-70 cartridge was produced, the .45-70-500, which fired a heavier 500 grain (32.5 g) bullet. The heavier 500-grain (32 g) bullet produced significantly superior ballistics, and could reach ranges of 3,500 yards (3200 m), which were beyond the maximum range of the .45-70-405. While the effective range of the .45-70 on individual targets was limited to about 1,000 yards (915 m) with either load, the heavier bullet would produce lethal injuries at 3,500 yards (3,200 m). At those ranges, the bullets struck point-first at roughly a 30 degree angle, penetrating 3 one inch (2.5 cm) thick oak boards, and then traveling to a depth of 8 inches (20 cm) into the sand of the Sandy Hook beach*. It was hoped the longer range of the .45-70-500 would allow effective volleyed fire at ranges beyond those normally expected of infantry fire.[5]

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A 45-70 is a very capable long range hunting cartridge if it is loaded with the proper bullet and the rifle is set up properly AND YOU KNOW HOW TO USE IT.

I have taken a number of animals in Africa with a 45 caliber Sharps, and only two of them have been at less than 200 yards. I shoot 480 to 520 grain bullets and drive them at 1200 to 1350 fps. I have never recovered one of these from any animal I have shot, always getting complete pass throughs.

Since it has been brought up, I will state that I have taken kudu at 302 yards, Black wildebeast at 225 yards, Blue wildebeast at 312 yards, impala at 229 yards, gemsbok at 200 yards, and springbok at 325 and 526 yards. All distances were measured with a Leica CRF 1200 laser rangefinder, and all of the shots are on DVD except the 526 yard springbok. All were first shot hits. However, I do have the two African PHs talking about the 526 yard shot on DVD. Only the two wildebeast required more than one shot.

It is something other people can do, if they want to. I shoot OPEN BARREL SIGHTS WITH A COPPER BLADE FRONT. The sights are a ladder sight that is standard equipment on a Sharps, and I have correlated the staff and marked it in 100 yard increments against the laser rangefinder. If you know the distance and have the sight set correctly--and break a good shot, you will hit with a killing shot. It is that simple. I have in fact had several people come to my range here at the house, and I have shown them how to do it.

I also have a Marlin 1895 Cowboy in 45-70. I have replaced the standard barrel sight with a ladder sight off of '73 Winchester, and correlated this sight with the rangefinder as well. I load the Lyman 457121 bullet at 480 grains and have nine shots at my disposal. I shoot steel animal silhouettes at my range at varying distances from 100 to 500 yards, and I can tell you that an elk at 300 is a dead nuts gimmie with either the Sharps or the Cowboy Marlin with ladder sights. 400 yards is not hard to do. LADDER BARREL SIGHTS as fitted to early Winchesters and Marlins greatly extend the range at which these rifles are capable.

Any of these loads will shoot through TWO INCHES of sun dried oak planking at 800 yards and and you are limited in what you can shoot ONLY BY THE QUALITY OF THE SIGHT PICTURE YOU CAN GENERATE.

Anyone who thinks that a 45-70 is strictly a short range proposition needs to go to a BPCR Silhouette match some time. When you see some guy run 10 pigs at 300 meters, and 7 or 8 turkeys at 424 yards or 8 or 10 rams at 547 yards with a 45-70, it becomes apparent real quick that if you are within a quarter of a mile of some guy with a 45-70 and he wants you, you are in serious trouble. I realize that these guys are using target sights. I have them on a couple of my rifles.

But you need to realize that I know several guys that can hit a gallon milk jug at a quarter of a mile with the barrel sights on their 45-70. I can do it, they can do it, and you can too, if you know how. If you can hit a gallon milk jug, you can hit a deer or elk in the hear/lung area.

IT IS THE SIGHTS that keep today's 45-70s from being long range capable, NOT THE CALIBER. That, and the 400 grain and lighter bullets.






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I would think it's "sights" or optics that limit the range. If you can see something well enough at 200 yards with open sights you can shoot it with a 45-70 with open sights; however, if you can see it well enough at 300+ with open sights you can shoot it with a 45-70. If you want to scope your 45-70 it becomes a long range gun; although I think long range is a subjective term.


Deserve's got nothing to do with it.

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Scoping a 45-70 will force you to hold over the animal when you get beyond your maximum zero range. With the ladder sight, you simply set the sight for the distance--whatever it is. Hold at six o'clock and break the shot. There is no guess work with the ladder sight. You get the distance from the rangefinder, and set the sight. That's it. And it is that quick.

You don't worry about bullet drop or trajectory. That is automatically compensated for when you set the sight. The scope sets limits. The ladder sight sets you free, and the 45-70 and the 500 grain bullet drills through whatever you hit. It is a wonderful combination.

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Get into the BPCR realm and those folks do amazing things with 45-70's out to a 1000+ yds. That being, they can be a long range unit, but one must make a science out of things to be effective way out there. Iron sights and a precise sight picture are a cinch with nice black and white concentric circles and double aperture sights. Going to extreme ranges on game would probably be better done with good glass on top and a rangefinder in hand. There are scopes and mounts suitable for working at extreme ranges.

I believe it's the August 2007 issue of Reloader that has a wonderful article with pressure data for many many bullet/powder combinations. The author of that article accidently took out two water buffs with a single round from one of his Marlins. A phone call to the publisher and $10 can get you a copy of the magazine.

Again, a neat cartridge that I'd like to drop an elk with.

I'm also tuning up a 45-90 Sharps running a 540 grain slug ahead of black powder, but may need some help to pack that one through the woods after game.

Last edited by 1minute; 03/15/10.

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I had one of the longer Marlin 45-70's for a while, I sold it as it seemed heavy to me, and did not seem to offer much more than a 308 as far as killing thin skinned WT deer. For the $600.00 they want for this rifle I would save a bit more and just buy a stainless steel 375 Ruger Alaskan with the 20 inch barrel.


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i ve seen one caribou hunter shooting at 325 yards and the other caribou at 55 yards (thanks telemeter) he was using a 45/70 guide gun with "new" lever evolution. the damage on the meat was less than with the 338 win mag 225 grain Nosler parition his friend was using.
just my two cents.

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Originally Posted by Big_Redhead
It appears to be in vogue for African hunters to malign the 45-70. Maybe they just can't deal with the fact that they spent so much hard-earned money on ridiculously expensive rifles when a five-hundred-dollar Marlin levergun has been proven effective against all the species on this planet. That would make me a little sick too.

Duck911, get the 45-70. They are just a bunch of fun to shoot and load for, and they kill game extremely well.

By the way, the range limitation resides with the hunter, not the caliber. A 45-70 will kill game at any range the shooter can hit the vitals. The same is true for the 30-378 magnum or 50 BMG. Words to the effect that the 45-70 is a short-range cartridge is pure horse pucky.


I use moderately priced rifles appropriate for the job at hand. Elephants have been killed with a 22, but that doesn't make them elephant guns. So...take a good swipe at me because I mortgage the farm to go to Africa, while you only wish... wink


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That the 45-70 is still around and quite popular speaks more to its utility and effectiveness than pure nostalgia, in my view.

I was very big into the fast magnums up to the 340 WBY until I discovered the 45-70 22 years ago... and I've never looked back. My only regret is that it took so long to discover it and find out what it was capable of. My first was an 1895 Marlin, and I've had three other Marlins since.

My current Marlin is the "classic" with nice wood, blued steel, pistol grip and 22" barrel. I've yet to fire a factory cartridge in those 22 years. But I have shot factory bullets from 300-grains to 500-grains. All were plenty accurate. But, personally speaking, I prefer good 400s, or 405s, with flat tips and copper or gilding-metal jackets at a tad over 2000 fps. Then, there's my favorite cast-bullet load: a 465-grain at 1900 fps even. All four of my Marlins would shoot my preferred loads at close to MOA.

As to the range at which a Marlin is capable of easily taking on a moose, for example, I agree with those who say it depends on the shooter AND THE LOAD HE'S FAMILIAR WITH AND SIGHTED-IN FOR if using a scope, which I do on all my rifles. Though a ladder-type on a CB (for instance) makes a lot of sense. It's true, a scope is the limiting factor IF YOU HAVE GOOD EYES! I don't, so at my age I'm compelled to use a scope IF I expect to shoot at 300 yds, for instance. On more than one occasion, I've taken a Marlin or my Ruger #1 loaded for moose to the "Far North" where shots could have been anything up to 600 yards!

I think my current Marlin, which seems more accurate than any previous version, IS capable at 300 yards for moose with my loads, as long as I have a range finder, by simply holding on the hump.

I've also owned a NEF with black composite stock and though ugly it was very accurate. I killed a very nice bl. bear with it and the 465gr cast (1 to 10, tin to lead). The bear, at 70 yds, dropped so fast I initially lost sight of him in the tall grass as the rifle came down from recoil. I was in a tree stand, btw.

My favorite 45-70 is the Ruger No.1 in 45-70 Improved (long-throated). If and when I have to give up my rifles, this will be the last to go. With a Burris fixed 4X it comes in at 7.4 lbs. With sling and 1 in the chamber, plus four on the stock, it breaks 8 lbs even. With the power of a .458 WM, what's there not to like. My current load is a 350 TSX at 2470 fps. That's not max. It will shoot the 300 TSX at 2600 fps, the 350 at 2500 fps, a 400 at 2400, a 450 Swift at 2300 fps and the 500gr Hornady at 2200 fps. So, it's really a .458 WM disguised as a 45-70!

Since I'm now enamored by .458-bore, I must mention that my true .458 WM is the CZ, which I'm also passionate about.

But just in case I come across a coyote at 800 yds, I keep a 300 WM in my closet as well! whistle I still happen to like 300 magnums for some silly reason... laugh

Bob

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I have numerous rifles to hunt deer, boar, and bear, but I always end up with a 45/70. I have several guns in this caliber and I like to hunt with my 1895GS. It is handy and compact and it works well in thick timber. I limit my shots to 200 yards by choice but I do practice with it on my range at 300 yards.

I have found that the two Marlin guide guns that I own shoot well. I have been able to put 5 shots inside 1/2" at 50 yards with a 525 grain hardcast Beartooth Pile Driver. It will shoot 300 grain and 350 grain bullets under 2" at 100 yards. Someone posted here about the 45/70 not being an effective caliber for quick kills. I have found that certain bullets (most 300grain HP) are not designed to be pushed over 2,000fps. These lead core bullets act like varmint bullets when pushed at 2,300 fps. At this velocity the 300 HP will turn the front shoulders of a deer into mush. I have been experimenting with pushing the Barnes 250 and 300 bullets to top velocity in a Ruger #1. My father has reached 2,600 fps with the 250 grain bullet safely from the data in the Barnes reloading book. He used the load to take a decent 8 pointer at 225 yards and it worked very well. The hard cast bullets from Cast Performance and Beartooth are designed to penetrate and penetrate they do.

Buy the 45/70 and if you don't like it, you can always sell it.

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I guess I take the middle road here. I have two .45-70's. My first was part of the intial run Marlin made in 1972. Straight grip and a microgroove barrel. The other is a Number 1 purchased in 1978. I have taken deer and hogs with both. There is no doubt that at the short ranges I used them they were wickedly effective. I have even taken a few woodchucks with the Number 1 -- a few at around 200 yards.I am sure that if you knew where to hold and practiced a bit you could stretch the ranges considerably. Neither of my rifles are set up for long range shooting; I just sight them in a little high at 100 yards and I am pretty much on the money at 150 or a little less. At woods ranges that is fine. A few years ago I spent an afternoon battering a 300 yard plate with a trapdoor Springlield.You could wind your watch and cash your paycheck waiting for the sound of those bullets impacting the target. A 500 grain bullet makes quite a fuss when it arrives on scene.

That said, even though they will toss a bullet one hell of a long way with amazing accuracy, I don't consider the cartridge a long range affair. No question that it can be done. And if it is your thing then be my guest. I am all for it, although it strikes me a slightly incongruous to crank up a ladder sight on a nineteenth century rifle to hit something you have lasered with a twenty-first century rangefinder. Hey, but if that's your thing....



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Originally Posted by atkinson
..If I were to use the 45-70 today it would be in a Ruger no. 1 and I would load it to 2000 plus FPS in that strong action, but why, when I can get the same gun in a .458 Win.


The Ruger #1-H in 458 is not the same gun as the Ruger #1-S in 45-70. I rather think you might reconsider that statement if you ever carried and used the #1-S. That caliber is perhaps the most perfectly balanced of the entire #1 series. It makes these single shots an easy love affair. (It's a livelier rifle even than the very similar 9.3x74R due to the latter's extra barrel weight.)


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A Ruger 1H in 458 feels like a truck axle with a stock. smile

The 1S 45-70 feels like a quail gun.

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Originally Posted by Klikitarik
Originally Posted by atkinson
..If I were to use the 45-70 today it would be in a Ruger no. 1 and I would load it to 2000 plus FPS in that strong action, but why, when I can get the same gun in a .458 Win.


The Ruger #1-H in 458 is not the same gun as the Ruger #1-S in 45-70. I rather think you might reconsider that statement if you ever carried and used the #1-S. That caliber is perhaps the most perfectly balanced of the entire #1 series. It makes these single shots an easy love affair. (It's a livelier rifle even than the very similar 9.3x74R due to the latter's extra barrel weight.)


+1

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I am normaly hesitent to post in this sort of threads but this one has a different feel to it. I happen to own several 45-70s but I also happen to own some sorta pricey guns that shoot bigger cartridges. I love them all and I KNOW them all.

I have seen first had what .458" 420gr cast bullets can do to a 1800lbs water buffalo. There just happened to be a PH there when we autopsied it that after the exam said it was bigger boned and heavier built than any cape buffalo he had ever seen. The 420gr cast bullet broke the onside leg, traveled through the lungs and wrecked the offside shoulder joint which kept the beast from taking off after the shot. A second shot was fired into the top of the heart and despite the heart deeling like it was made of leather left a 1.5" tunnel through it before lodging under the offside skin. The blood spewed through the opening over 4' away from the animal. The beast just tipped over. The first shot was taken while the animal trotted. This was the only shot offered in the clear after chasing them for 4 hours. The buff was killed with a .450 Marlin but the load was a ballistic twin to my 45/70 load using the same bullet.
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I use 45-70s on a regular basis while shooting depredation permit deer. I have never had a problem hitting deer past 250 yards and most of them are heart shot. I am a firm believer in knowing your rifle. No matter what it is. If you don't like them don't buy one. If you do then grab all of them you can.

I also love my .416s but at some point in time I am sure I will be told I need something bigger. I am already working on that though... reflex264


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By the way one of my rifles is a Ruger #1 45-70 and I agree. It is a very lively and handy rifle capible of deivering a lot of power from a light package. reflex264


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