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You won't like this take: There's no way in hades a cast bullet can outperform an expanding bullet.

You might like this take: Expanding bullets sometimes don't expand, or worse they over-expand. Cast bullets are predictable.


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Jog you might like to check out those folks over at Beartooth Bullets! They do a lot of testing in the field and have lots of bonified information on the results of hardcast bullets, both in pistol and rifle. Those large metplat do the job believe me on that fact!


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Its true, I think Elmer would love some of the guns & calibers we have today, although I don't think the quality of guns is better for the most part, now they are stronger, longer lasting guns but the fit & finish of the early S&W's & Rugers will never be matched except by the custom guys.
The biggest overall improvement has to be the big, heavy slugs available including some very top quality jacketed slugs, when I started back in the sixties the choice of jacketed slugs was pretty narrow. The old Speer half jacketed slugs wouldn't do much unless you really stoked them up with heavy charges of 2400, but for the most part they just acted like a solid.
I never use jacketed slugs anymore but would be perfectly happy with a Nosler or Belt Mountain Punch Bullet for most game shooting, when the animal gets elk size or bigger nothing will perform like a good heavy wide cast slug. They drive straight & deep & can penetrate the big bones.
No bullet of any kind will make up for shot placement, if you get that & penetration you're on the right track.

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You might like this take: Expanding bullets sometimes don't expand, or worse they over-expand. Cast bullets are predictable.
quoted by JOG....IMO I'll take predictable everytime because predictable is dependable.


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Originally Posted by JOG
You won't like this take: There's no way in hades a cast bullet can outperform an expanding bullet.

You might like this take: Expanding bullets sometimes don't expand, or worse they over-expand. Cast bullets are predictable.


JOG, don't be a blasphemer. Cast certainly do frequently outperform expanding bullets, particularly in the realm they were designed to operate -- straight-line, bone breaking, no compromise penetration. I have had jacketed expanding bullets fail to exit on many occasions -- not the case with flat-nosed hardcast bullets. The predictability is good enough for me. So, are you saying you like hardcast over expanding bullets??

Last edited by Whitworth1; 03/18/10.

Max Prasac

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The Gun Digest Book of Hunting Revolvers:
https://youtu.be/zKJbjjPaNUE

Bovine Bullet Test
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mmtZky8T7-k&t=35s

Gun Digest TV's Modern Shooter:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nGo-KMpXPpA&t=7s
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Nah, no blaspheming here, gosh dammit. smirk

Generally, I do prefer cast bullets for a hunting round. My experience is waaay less than lots of you gents - Minnesota whitetails and smaller.

Any discussion on generic 'expanding bullets' isn't likely to solve much. One guy will be hunting rabbits and the next guy will be hunting blue whales. An expanding bullet's failure to exit or expand could actually be the failure of the shooter to select the correct bullet, or even the wrong handgun. There are too many variables. Still, an expanding bullet that did its job will make a bigger mess than a cast bullet that did its job.

Cast bullets level the playing field and take out a lot of the guesswork. They're a prime example of the KISS principle.


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Originally Posted by JOG
Still, an expanding bullet that did its job will make a bigger mess than a cast bullet that did its job.

Cast bullets level the playing field and take out a lot of the guesswork. They're a prime example of the KISS principle.


This is precisely why most of the calibers I hunt with start out at 1/2-inch in diameter -- takes the need for expansion out of the equation....... grin


Max Prasac

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The Gun Digest Book of Hunting Revolvers:
https://youtu.be/zKJbjjPaNUE

Bovine Bullet Test
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mmtZky8T7-k&t=35s

Gun Digest TV's Modern Shooter:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nGo-KMpXPpA&t=7s
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Everything in hunting with a handgun is a variable, rifles too for that matter, thats because you can never dicate the distance, the angle, the nervousness, the animals size & the shot placement. Jacketed bullets have their place for sure, espcially on animals the size of deer or if using one of the premium jacketed slugs then animals up to elk size or perhaps a little bigger.
A good friend of mine from Hickory, N.C. is a very accomplished handgunner & has taken game all over the world using good, heavy jacketed handgun slugs, this includes african & asian game up to water buffalo which are bigger than the cape buffalo of africa.
Its all about selecting the correct bullet for the job & then putting it in the right place, when that happens & you also get penetration then you've done your part.
The tricky part is getting the penetration from that jacketed slug. If they are up to the task of penetrating then you can bet there's little or no expansion on most animals.
With the heavy cast slugs of at least 40 caliber with a wide meplat, the expansion is built in just from bullet diameter & that big wide nose. As Whitworth mentions the big heavy one's never fail, shooters can fail because they don't make shot placement a priority & bad things happen, there's just no guarantee's in hunting, especially with sixguns. That challenge is kind of what makes us hunt with them in the first place.

Dick

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That challenge is kind of what makes us hunt with them in the first place.

X2


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Originally Posted by Idaho1945
Everything in hunting with a handgun is a variable, rifles too for that matter, thats because you can never dicate the distance, the angle, the nervousness, the animals size & the shot placement. Jacketed bullets have their place for sure, espcially on animals the size of deer or if using one of the premium jacketed slugs then animals up to elk size or perhaps a little bigger.
A good friend of mine from Hickory, N.C. is a very accomplished handgunner & has taken game all over the world using good, heavy jacketed handgun slugs, this includes african & asian game up to water buffalo which are bigger than the cape buffalo of africa.
Its all about selecting the correct bullet for the job & then putting it in the right place, when that happens & you also get penetration then you've done your part.
The tricky part is getting the penetration from that jacketed slug. If they are up to the task of penetrating then you can bet there's little or no expansion on most animals.
With the heavy cast slugs of at least 40 caliber with a wide meplat, the expansion is built in just from bullet diameter & that big wide nose. As Whitworth mentions the big heavy one's never fail, shooters can fail because they don't make shot placement a priority & bad things happen, there's just no guarantee's in hunting, especially with sixguns. That challenge is kind of what makes us hunt with them in the first place.

Dick


Amen to that, Dick.


Max Prasac

Semper Fidelis

The Gun Digest Book of Hunting Revolvers:
https://youtu.be/zKJbjjPaNUE

Bovine Bullet Test
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mmtZky8T7-k&t=35s

Gun Digest TV's Modern Shooter:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nGo-KMpXPpA&t=7s
IC B3

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I know...........I'm late to the party, nuthin' new...grin.

I use a 300gr. Beartooth bullet (WFNHCGC) ahead of 21.0grs. of H110. Took my first buck with it this last fall, needless to say, in and out........smile.

I pack it on most all of my field trips, so I load it mainly for protection from large critters. Seems it does OK on deer sized game as well.

Those Beartooth folks make a fine bullet and are very thoughtful and friendly people. When they say "hardcast"....they mean it.

Hope this helps.

Semper Fi............

Last edited by magnumb; 03/18/10.
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Originally Posted by Idaho1945
Everything in hunting with a handgun is a variable, rifles too for that matter, thats because you can never dicate the distance, the angle, the nervousness, the animals size & the shot placement. Jacketed bullets have their place for sure, espcially on animals the size of deer or if using one of the premium jacketed slugs then animals up to elk size or perhaps a little bigger.
A good friend of mine from Hickory, N.C. is a very accomplished handgunner & has taken game all over the world using good, heavy jacketed handgun slugs, this includes african & asian game up to water buffalo which are bigger than the cape buffalo of africa.
Its all about selecting the correct bullet for the job & then putting it in the right place, when that happens & you also get penetration then you've done your part.
The tricky part is getting the penetration from that jacketed slug. If they are up to the task of penetrating then you can bet there's little or no expansion on most animals.
With the heavy cast slugs of at least 40 caliber with a wide meplat, the expansion is built in just from bullet diameter & that big wide nose. As Whitworth mentions the big heavy one's never fail, shooters can fail because they don't make shot placement a priority & bad things happen, there's just no guarantee's in hunting, especially with sixguns. That challenge is kind of what makes us hunt with them in the first place.

Dick



+1....



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I'd just add that I suspect many don't understand that the standard weight bullets used for the .44 Magnum can vary alot as to how much they expand, producing larger wound channels, or penetrate alot more if they don't open up alot.
I remember Bob Petersen of Guns & Ammo fame killing both an Alaskan Brown Bear and an Alaskan Mooose with his 6.5 inch Smith. Absolutely no lack of penetration with the 240 gr. Norma bullets he used. Shot through the lenth of his big moose, for instance.
Elmer Keith had no trouble at all getting his .44 mag, with 240 gr. Remington factory lead loads, which was a softer swagged lead bullet with a thin gas check, to shoot right through the face plate on the several cows he shot with them. A heavy, hard bone that my Dad found would stop a .30-30 slug.
The thing is that if you have your gun zeroed for 300 gr. hard cast loads, that is all you can use unless you rezero it for other ammo. But by going to faster or slower opening bullets, one can use the same weight bullets, which should shoot the same zero, and get a wider variety of performance much more easily.
Odviously, I prefer that option. E

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The thing is that if you have your gun zeroed for 300 gr. hard cast loads, that is all you can use,quote by Eremicus

But if that load will do all the person could ever need his 44 to do,why would he change?


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