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#4017835 - 04/22/10 06:07 AM 22-06
Siskiyous6 Offline
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Registered: 11/20/04
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I am considering having Pac-Nor build me a 28 inch 3 groove rifled, super match 22-06 on a Ruger M77 Action I own.

The purpose of this gun is long range shooting, for the fun of long range shooting. Varmints now and then. No serious purpose is intend.

Where would I find information on this cartridge, what are your opinions on muzzle brakes (it will be shot with ear plugs always),contours (I am considering the medium Palma), fluting, twist rates, powders, scopes, and bullets.


I know many will wonder why the Ruger, but I love my Rugers.


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#4018001 - 04/22/10 07:11 AM Re: 22-06 [Re: Siskiyous6]
Big_Redhead Offline
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Loc: Michigan
You really should contact Ross Seyfried. He has done this and written articles about it. Look for his number in the magazines, in the advertisements for Elk Song Ranch (IIRC). Somebody correct me if I got the name wrong.
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#4018012 - 04/22/10 07:14 AM Re: 22-06 [Re: Big_Redhead]
Mule Deer Offline
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I recently heard through the grapevine that Ross is no longer at Elk Song Ranch, but the grapevine could be wrong.
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#4018127 - 04/22/10 07:58 AM Re: 22-06 [Re: Siskiyous6]
boatanchor Offline
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Registered: 11/11/06
Posts: 1286
Originally Posted By: siskiyous6
I am considering having Pac-Nor build me a 28 inch 3 groove rifled, super match 22-06 on a Ruger M77 Action I own.

The purpose of this gun is long range shooting, for the fun of long range shooting. Varmints now and then. No serious purpose is intend.

Where would I find information on this cartridge, what are your opinions on muzzle brakes (it will be shot with ear plugs always),contours (I am considering the medium Palma), fluting, twist rates, powders, scopes, and bullets.


I know many will wonder why the Ruger, but I love my Rugers.




If I may give you a little advice from experience, what you have proposed is a recipe for disaster for a couple reason's.
My nephew had a basicly inentical gun a few years ago a 22-284 Pac-Nor 3 groove 1-8" twist. it was a nightmare because this chambering is wayyyy too over bore and combine that with a 3groove barrel and there are very few bullet's that will make it out the muzzle intact, the 75-80gr A-Max wont, the 75-80gr VLD Berger's wont. the only bullet's that will shoot in this combo are the Sierra Match King's 69-80grains.
If you have your heart set on the 22-06 so that you can shoot these other bullets a 5 or 6 groove barrel is a must.
Then the other thing to consider is barrel life.....500-600 rounds top's and it will be toast.
B

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#4018350 - 04/22/10 08:56 AM Re: 22-06 [Re: boatanchor]
Gene L Offline
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Registered: 06/14/06
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It's a barrel burner.
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#4018496 - 04/22/10 09:37 AM Re: 22-06 [Re: Gene L]
Vic_in_Va Offline
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Registered: 05/30/02
Posts: 4892
I'd go .22-243. But, I suspect you are dealing with a long action, so there's a chance it wouldn't feed too good.

Give a thought to 6.5mm if you are thinking long range, bunches of good flying bullets in that diameter.

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#4019254 - 04/22/10 01:35 PM Re: 22-06 [Re: Vic_in_Va]
atkinsonhunting Offline
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Loc: Filer, Idaho, USA
Muledeer,
I talked to Ross not long ago and he was still there! I'll give him a call.

For long range shooting I would think the 22 caliber a bad choice, as it tends to drop off in velocity and it certainly is wind sensitive IMO...

Personally I would opt for a 30 caliber or at least a 6mm. but thats just an opine on my part.
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#4020433 - 04/22/10 08:02 PM Re: 22-06 [Re: atkinsonhunting]
rosco1 Offline
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Registered: 03/02/08
Posts: 2877
Loc: utah
22-6mm is a monster as well.

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#4020533 - 04/22/10 08:27 PM Re: 22-06 [Re: atkinsonhunting]
peepsight3006 Offline
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Registered: 10/10/06
Posts: 3816
Loc: Utah
Originally Posted By: atkinson
Muledeer,
I talked to Ross not long ago and he was still there! I'll give him a call.

For long range shooting I would think the 22 caliber a bad choice, as it tends to drop off in velocity and it certainly is wind sensitive IMO...

Personally I would opt for a 30 caliber or at least a 6mm. but thats just an opine on my part.


Shore nuff. Ray, the folks that do the 22/XXX bit are muzzle velocity blind. They can tell you within a few fps what she does at the muzzle, but are immune to logic when it comes to downrange stuff, like retained velocity due the BC, which is at least partially dependent on SD. When you show them what happens to a 200 grain partition (BC of .56) compared to a 45 grain .22 at distances from 400 out, they almost always come up with the "yea, but" that goes with denial.

Yea, I know I'm preaching to the choir, but at least you will listen and nod, knowing that a 375 shoots just as flat as an '06.

Wayne

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#4020566 - 04/22/10 08:39 PM Re: 22-06 [Re: peepsight3006]
Siskiyous6 Offline
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Registered: 11/20/04
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Yea but, I already shoot 200's out of my 300.

I have a 220 Swift and know about light 22 caliber bullets.

I just don't see the .223 as the best platform for the heavy 77 to 90 grain .223 bullets with high SD's out there, because it is velocity challenged.

I would be interested in the 22-6mm or 5.56X57 because the gun I want to use is a 7X57 now.
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#4020581 - 04/22/10 08:45 PM Re: 22-06 [Re: Siskiyous6]
UncleJake Offline
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Registered: 12/17/09
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Loc: Los Anchorage, AK
How about a .220 Swift with that barrel?

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#4020594 - 04/22/10 08:50 PM Re: 22-06 [Re: boatanchor]
Siskiyous6 Offline
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Registered: 11/20/04
Posts: 6124
Loc: Del Norte County, State of Jef...
Quote:


If I may give you a little advice from experience, what you have proposed is a recipe for disaster for a couple reason's.
My nephew had a basicly inentical gun a few years ago a 22-284 Pac-Nor 3 groove 1-8" twist. it was a nightmare because this chambering is wayyyy too over bore and combine that with a 3groove barrel and there are very few bullet's that will make it out the muzzle intact, the 75-80gr A-Max wont, the 75-80gr VLD Berger's wont. the only bullet's that will shoot in this combo are the Sierra Match King's 69-80grains.
If you have your heart set on the 22-06 so that you can shoot these other bullets a 5 or 6 groove barrel is a must.
Then the other thing to consider is barrel life.....500-600 rounds top's and it will be toast.
B


Tell me more about the theory behind not using 3 grove, because I saw others advocating it.
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#4020597 - 04/22/10 08:50 PM Re: 22-06 [Re: Siskiyous6]
Siskiyous6 Offline
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Registered: 11/20/04
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Loc: Del Norte County, State of Jef...
PS - I have not consulted th Pac-Nor people yet. So nothing I am asking should reflect on them.
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RAND PAUL 2016!

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#4020620 - 04/22/10 09:01 PM Re: 22-06 [Re: Siskiyous6]
Gene L Offline
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Registered: 06/14/06
Posts: 4773
Loc: Georgia
I've know an internet guy who shoots P-dogs a LOT and he whacks them out to 500 yards (lasered) with a .223. Pretty regularly. Beyond that, he goes to 6mm.

He wears out barrels with the 6mm, and probably with the .223, but he shoots a lot of rounds. I forget how many rounds it takes him, I'm thinking 4000-6000 rounds. He uses muzzle brakes on his rifles so he can see the bullet strike and adjust in case of a miss. I don't know if that has any affect on the barrel wear, would suspect it doesn't.

Being way overbore channels the heat down to a narrow opening (the bore) and cuts it away much quicker.
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#4020655 - 04/22/10 09:19 PM Re: 22-06 [Re: Siskiyous6]
nsaqam Offline
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Registered: 05/01/08
Posts: 16540
Loc: Hermantown MN
Originally Posted By: siskiyous6
Yea but, I already shoot 200's out of my 300.

I have a 220 Swift and know about light 22 caliber bullets.

I just don't see the .223 as the best platform for the heavy 77 to 90 grain .223 bullets with high SD's out there, because it is velocity challenged.

I would be interested in the 22-6mm or 5.56X57 because the gun I want to use is a 7X57 now.




+1

The heavy .224" bullets turn all this "6mm is better" talk on it's head.

The 90gr Berger Match Target VLD has a BC of .551 which is HIGHER than any of Berger's 6mm bullets.

I like your idea of the .22-06 and if there were varmints where I lived I'd build one.
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#4020658 - 04/22/10 09:21 PM Re: 22-06 [Re: nsaqam]
nsaqam Offline
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Registered: 05/01/08
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Loc: Hermantown MN
Berger recommends a 1 in 7 twist for the 90gr .224" bullets.
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I'm not one of the Chosin Few but no more remarkable group of Americans ever existed.

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#4021163 - 04/23/10 06:30 AM Re: 22-06 [Re: Siskiyous6]
dave7mm Offline
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Registered: 02/05/01
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Loc: pa
If your looken to play at long range.

http://www.6mmbr.com/243Win.html

We asked GA Precision's George Gardner why he chose .243 Winchester for his Tactical Comp Gun. He replied, "Why would I run anything else? Think about it. I'm sending a .585 BC 115 at 3150 fps--that'll shoot inside the 6XC and .260 Rem with ease. I'm pretty sure I have found the Holy Grail of Comp Rifles. There are no brass issues like you can get forming .260 brass. I don't have to worry about doughnuts, reaming necks--none of that. And the choice in brass is great too--run Lapua if you want max reloads and great accuracy. Run Winchester if you're on a budget, and so you won't cry if you lose some cases in a match. I can get 10-round mags, and feeding is 100% reliable, since the case is identical to a .308 except for the neck. Accuracy-wise, I don't think I'm giving up anything to the .260 Rem or the 6XC." We then asked George if he'd considered using a .243 AI instead: "Yeah, the cases look cool with that 40 shoulder, but I think the standard .243 feeds a little better. And I don't think I really need the extra performance of an improved case. Run the ballistics for my load--115 moly DTAC at 3150 fps. You've got less windage than a 2950 fps 6.5-284, with cheaper brass, cheaper dies, cheaper bullets, and less recoil."

The thing about a 22-06 is that not only will your barrel life suck.Your case life will too.Your gonna eat cases like crazy.Its alot of work.
For high speed 22 stuff.I'd run a 22 CHeetah.Excellant case life.Not uncommen to get 20-25 reloads per case provided you dont get carried away.
Gardner and Tubbs stuff are pretty hard to beat.And you dont have to re-invent the wheel.
I'd skip the Pac-Nor for a Rock.Today,tommorrow and yesterday.

dave
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#4021230 - 04/23/10 07:01 AM Re: 22-06 [Re: peepsight3006]
Big_Redhead Offline
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Registered: 12/21/03
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Originally Posted By: peepsight3006
Originally Posted By: atkinson
Muledeer,
I talked to Ross not long ago and he was still there! I'll give him a call.

For long range shooting I would think the 22 caliber a bad choice, as it tends to drop off in velocity and it certainly is wind sensitive IMO...

Personally I would opt for a 30 caliber or at least a 6mm. but thats just an opine on my part.


Shore nuff. Ray, the folks that do the 22/XXX bit are muzzle velocity blind. They can tell you within a few fps what she does at the muzzle, but are immune to logic when it comes to downrange stuff, like retained velocity due the BC, which is at least partially dependent on SD. When you show them what happens to a 200 grain partition (BC of .56) compared to a 45 grain .22 at distances from 400 out, they almost always come up with the "yea, but" that goes with denial.

Yea, I know I'm preaching to the choir, but at least you will listen and nod, knowing that a 375 shoots just as flat as an '06.

Wayne


The 22 caliber 90 grain Berger VLD has an advertised BC of .551. The 90 grain Sierra HPBT is listed as .504. BC is BC regardless of caliber, and I totally understand the desire for the 22-06. It would be a long-range, low-recoil toy that I think would be huckuva lot of fun. Yes, it is overbore and not very practical from the standpoint of longevity, but that just goes with the territory. As long as the man paying the bills understands that going in, it is his decision. I say go for it!

Again, talk to Ross Seyfried. He has BTDTBTTS.
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Harrumph!!!
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#4021301 - 04/23/10 07:26 AM Re: 22-06 [Re: Siskiyous6]
peepsight3006 Offline
Campfire Guide

Registered: 10/10/06
Posts: 3816
Loc: Utah
Originally Posted By: siskiyous6
Yea but, I already shoot 200's out of my 300.

I have a 220 Swift and know about light 22 caliber bullets.

I just don't see the .223 as the best platform for the heavy 77 to 90 grain .223 bullets with high SD's out there, because it is velocity challenged.

I would be interested in the 22-6mm or 5.56X57 because the gun I want to use is a 7X57 now.

With a good Swift and a 7 x 57 you're in pretty good company. Even the Swift can't burn all the powder the case will hold without a blinding flash and a roar enough to scare a critter to death. Chrome helps out there a bit, but a 22/06 is like necking the 50 BMG down to shoot sewing machine needles. Neat ideas but worthless after a couple hundred.

Wayne



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#4021324 - 04/23/10 07:38 AM Re: 22-06 [Re: peepsight3006]
cumminscowboy Offline
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Registered: 11/11/04
Posts: 3072
Loc: Herriman UT
do a 22-6mm instead I don't think you can push a 22 bullet any faster than what that case can, I love rugers too, they are my favorite rifles, but lets be honest smiths hate working on them and there are very few options with stocks etc. do up a winchester instead. its got all the features the ruger has but with alot more options.
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#4021368 - 04/23/10 07:49 AM Re: 22-06 [Re: cumminscowboy]
Ol` Joe Offline
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Registered: 01/28/01
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Loc: 1 hr north of Hell
What about the 220 Howell? It`s basically a 22-06 that is designed to toss heavy high BC bullets at modest pressure & velocity.
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#4021924 - 04/23/10 10:50 AM Re: 22-06 [Re: Ol` Joe]
EddyBo Offline
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Registered: 10/28/07
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Loc: SW MS
I would just drop down to 22x47 lapua or even a 22-250 or a 220 swift. There is only so much you can do with the 90s despite the superior BC. Damn things blow up at extreme velocities, even in 5 groove barrels. I have been playing with the 22x47 for a couple years now, great round for me because I have so much 6.5x47 brass that has already been necked to 6mm laying around. I cannot get the 90 bergers to hold together with a 7.5 twist much past 3200. I cannot get them to stabilize in an 8 twist even running them 3350. There is just not much room for improvement of the standards when it comes to long range 22s. The bullets not the cases are the limiting factors. BTW I have never blown up a 80 SMK....yet, so as an aside maybe there are some other things to try.


Edited by EddyBo (04/23/10 10:51 AM)

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#4022378 - 04/23/10 01:29 PM Re: 22-06 [Re: Siskiyous6]
2525 Offline
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Registered: 06/02/02
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I don't own a .22-06 nor do I care to, but for grins I ran the numbers through QuickLoad. It suggests that with modern powders, the cartridge is no longer "overbore;" powders such as Retumbo should give about 3300 fps at the higher pressures when using 90 gn bullets. Dropping the pressure into the 50's to try to improve barrel life will cost you only 150 fps. Either way, the muzzle blast ought to be impressive.

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#4022434 - 04/23/10 01:44 PM Re: 22-06 [Re: 2525]
nsaqam Offline
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Registered: 05/01/08
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Loc: Hermantown MN
You make a good point.

Overbore has become a term which gets tossed around but has very little to do with reality these days with our modern powder formulas.
It's a term out of history.

In that same vein so is the concept of a barrel burner. Modern, cooler burning powders with new additives and coatings means that throats erode much less rapidly than before.
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#4022502 - 04/23/10 02:06 PM Re: 22-06 [Re: nsaqam]
2525 Offline
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Loc: U.S.A.
No cartridge I own operates over 40,000 psi, so barrel burning is not something I'm familiar with. However, I'll note the capacity of the case compared to the bore cross section is similar to that of the .50 BMG. Is the .50 a notorious barrel burner (I don't own one)?

I recall Mule Deer suggesting one time that shoulder angle has an effect on throat erosion, so in picking a particular variant of the .22-06, one might want to consider that.

I'll further note this comment from Ken Howell, posted in these forums about 9 years ago:

Quote:
No one has shot-out a .220 Howell barrel yet, but the significantly lower peak pressures guarantee a significantly longer barrel life.


His .220 is pretty much a .22-06, and you can read what he has to say about the "significantly lower peak pressures" in these posts of his on another forum many years ago.


Edited by 2525 (04/23/10 04:12 PM)
Edit Reason: quote & link

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#4024074 - 04/24/10 03:38 AM Re: 22-06 [Re: nsaqam]
rockchuck828 Offline
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Registered: 04/09/09
Posts: 1200
Originally Posted By: nsaqam


Overbore has become a term which gets tossed around but has very little to do with reality these days with our modern powder formulas.
It's a term out of history.

In that same vein so is the concept of a barrel burner. Modern, cooler burning powders with new additives and coatings means that throats erode much less rapidly than before.


WOW !!!!!!!! you live in an internet dream world based in fantasy not reality laugh
RC

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#4024076 - 04/24/10 03:47 AM Re: 22-06 [Re: 2525]
rockchuck828 Offline
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Registered: 04/09/09
Posts: 1200
Originally Posted By: 2525
a .22-06 with modern powders, the cartridge is no longer "overbore;"


One of the most rediculous post's ever but a good laugh laugh laugh
RC

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#4024159 - 04/24/10 05:14 AM Re: 22-06 [Re: rockchuck828]
nsaqam Offline
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Registered: 05/01/08
Posts: 16540
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Yea rockchuck, You're the recognized expert in fantasy world life. crazy
If you think modern powders haven't had any effect on barrel life you're nuts.
_________________________
The Chosin Few November to December 1950, Korea.
I'm not one of the Chosin Few but no more remarkable group of Americans ever existed.

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#4024453 - 04/24/10 07:51 AM Re: 22-06 [Re: rockchuck828]
2525 Offline
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Registered: 06/02/02
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Loc: U.S.A.
The definition for "overbore" I go by is not uncommon. A cartridge is overbore if you can't find a powder which fills the space below the bullet while giving safe pressures.

In the .22-06 Easling, the ratio of net case capacity to bore area is 5.8 inches. In the .50 BMG it's 5.4 inches. If that version of the .22-06 is overbore, then so is the BMG, yet they've been safely loading the latter for nearly a century. (For a plain .22-06, I'd estimate 6.2".)

Despite the larger relative case size, because the bullet SD used in the .22-06 is much lower, it should be necessary to use a slightly faster powder than the BMG. The powders available to hand loaders today runs through those suitable for heavy bullets in the BMG.

That's why I think the term "overbore" no longer applies. I'm curious why you think it does apply.


Edited by 2525 (04/24/10 09:39 AM)
Edit Reason: numbers off

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#4024472 - 04/24/10 07:57 AM Re: 22-06 [Re: 2525]
gnoahhh Offline
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I agree that the evil connotations of overbore have been mitigated to a degree with modern powders. That's not to say that I don't think a .22-06 isn't kind of a wacky idea. I would like to hear how it works though! smile
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#4024517 - 04/24/10 08:11 AM Re: 22-06 [Re: gnoahhh]
efw Offline
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Registered: 11/30/07
Posts: 11445
Loc: Mi.
Its the whackiness that adds to the cool factor in my opinion.

The 224 Cheetah seems like a more logical cartridge for this particular project, since the OP said the donor was a 7x57 in its first life.

There was a great article on the two 22x57 wildcats out there in a recent issue of Precision Shooting. It grabbed my interest, though I'm not into cartridges that use so much powder compared to bore diameter (notice I didn't say "overbore"!).

Again, any of these carry a high "cool factor" in my book and for someone who is really into tinkering with wildcats it'd be awesome.
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#4024537 - 04/24/10 08:19 AM Re: 22-06 [Re: efw]
nsaqam Offline
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Registered: 05/01/08
Posts: 16540
Loc: Hermantown MN
IIRC the .22x57, called the 5.6x57RWS, is a factory cartridge in Europe.

I agree EFW, very high cool factor.
_________________________
The Chosin Few November to December 1950, Korea.
I'm not one of the Chosin Few but no more remarkable group of Americans ever existed.

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#4024553 - 04/24/10 08:28 AM Re: 22-06 [Re: nsaqam]
nsaqam Offline
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Registered: 05/01/08
Posts: 16540
Loc: Hermantown MN
Yep, the 5.6x57 RWS was introduced in 1964 by RWS specifically for hunting Roe buck and Chamois.
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The Chosin Few November to December 1950, Korea.
I'm not one of the Chosin Few but no more remarkable group of Americans ever existed.

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#4024929 - 04/24/10 11:18 AM Re: 22-06 [Re: nsaqam]
dubePA Offline
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Registered: 02/04/01
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Loc: PA
Well, I'm convinced and will put my 1x9 twist, Douglass-barreled 22-06 out in the garden this year, once the tomato vines have progressed to the point of needing additional support. Doubt the woodchucks will miss it, come summer.

Reckon I can always find something else to do with the freed-up H4831SC powder and 65gr bullets? ;O)
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#4025352 - 04/24/10 02:45 PM Re: 22-06 [Re: dubePA]
2525 Offline
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Registered: 06/02/02
Posts: 520
Loc: U.S.A.
No dubePA, 4831 can't possibly work. You see, the cartridge is overbore. confused

Funny thing, though, both the Powley Computer and QuickLoad predict 4831 is about the right speed for a .22-06 firing a 65 grain bullet. wink

Hmmmmm...

By the way, which version of the .22-06 do you have, and have you ever measured the water capacity of the empty case? Thanks.



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#4025604 - 04/24/10 04:08 PM Re: 22-06 [Re: 2525]
dubePA Offline
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Straight-up 25-06 case necked for a .224 bullet. I didn't measure the case capacity, but it's partial to 55grs of H4831SC behind a 60gr or 65gr bullet.
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#4027201 - 04/25/10 07:57 AM Re: 22-06 [Re: 2525]
Siskiyous6 Offline
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I never intended to build a high pressure gun, I just want to do a lot better with heavy .224 diameter bullets than the current offerings.

I believe 27XX FPS is the top end for a .223 Remington with 75 grain bullets. But in looking at the .228 Ackley, and the bigger Van Horn Express information I found, I should be able to gain almost 1000 fps over the .223 Remington.

Looking at my desire to fire the high BC 90 grain bullets, the 22-06 would thrill me if it sent 90 grain bullets down range with a muzzle velocity of 3400 fps. As long as it matched the velocity the 300's give to their high BC 200 grain bullets, it should equal them for long range, non-hunting uses, with less recoil.

Big cases allow lower pressures, as we see in the comparison of th 416 Rigby verses the 416 Remington. IF the right powder is available,and the performance goals are reasonable, there is no intrinsic reason a 22-06 has to be a high pressure barrel burner.

The 5.56X57 RWS must be loaded to very reasonable pressure levels because it has a significantly larger case than the 220 Swift, yet very little velocity gain. Like the project I want to do, its purpose was to launch heavier bullets. As we saw with the .244/6mm Remington, twist rates matter in cartridge design.

According to the part numbers my 7X57 and the 30-06 use the same follower in the M77, so the original cartridge isn't an issue in this project.

Thanks for the links to Mr. Howells info. He is always a great source of logical thinking on these subjects, though I was disappointed to not find the 22-06 in his book "Custom Cartridges". Hell if I couldn't have found another designer's work on this cartridge when writing that book, I would have made one up and put my own name on it.

All of you gave me ideas to follow up on in my reference books. Thanks for the good discussion.
_________________________
Ignorance is not confined to uneducated people.

RAND PAUL 2016!

WHO IS
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#4027684 - 04/25/10 10:53 AM Re: 22-06 [Re: Siskiyous6]
boatanchor Offline
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Registered: 11/11/06
Posts: 1286
Originally Posted By: siskiyous6


Tell me more about the theory behind not using 3 grove, because I saw others advocating it.



The theroy behind the 3groove is that it is supposed to give longer throat life in certain applications, for example using a 3groove 1-7" twist for a 223 Remington is a good idea and you would have no problem's.
But the bigger the case capacity (for bore size) and the faster the twist the worse of an idea the 3groove becomes, the lands are just too agressive for frangible bullets at higher velocities like in the 22-06 .this condition worsens at the first sign of fire cracking in the throat , so a bullet that might shoot awesome for the first 200 rounds suddenly start blowing up after they leave the muzzle.
I have built many large capacity 22 and 6mm fast twist for hi B.C.bullets for long range varmint hunting and have found from trial and error that 5 or 6Groove barrel's are superior in every way. a 3groove is awesome for a 1-10" twist 30-06 but is aweful for a 1-7" twist 22-06.
B

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#4027784 - 04/25/10 11:36 AM Re: 22-06 [Re: Siskiyous6]
boatanchor Offline
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Registered: 11/11/06
Posts: 1286
Originally Posted By: siskiyous6
I never intended to build a high pressure gun,

Big cases allow lower pressures, IF the right powder is available,and the performance goals are reasonable, there is no intrinsic reason a 22-06 has to be a high pressure barrel burner.



This is where your philosophy may be flawed....
You mentioned that you want this to be a long range rifle to shoot 75-90 grain high B.C. bullets. The #1 thing with this criteria is to find a load that is consistent from shot to shot and has low standard deviation, most of the time with a cartridge such as this it happens at a fairly high pressure level.
someone(s) got offended on one of my previous posts when I called the 22-06 OVERBORE. to give you a more accurate assessment think of it as diminishing returns. compare a 22-250 AI (largest powder capacity I will ever use again) to the 22-06. you use a considerable ammount more powder in the 22-06 for very little velocity gain and a substantial decrease in barrel life.
B

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#4027798 - 04/25/10 11:41 AM Re: 22-06 [Re: Siskiyous6]
boatanchor Offline
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Registered: 11/11/06
Posts: 1286
Originally Posted By: siskiyous6


The 5.56X57 RWS has a significantly larger case than the 220 Swift, yet very little velocity gain.

My point exactly !!!!!!!!
B

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#4027922 - 04/25/10 12:32 PM Re: 22-06 [Re: boatanchor]
2525 Offline
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Registered: 06/02/02
Posts: 520
Loc: U.S.A.
Originally Posted By: boatanchor
someone(s) got offended on one of my previous posts when I called the 22-06 OVERBORE. to give you a more accurate assessment think of it as diminishing returns.


If that's what you meant by overbore, then I certainly understand the point you were trying to make. Much of the powder energy is wasted in cartridges like these, unless you're using a fantastically long barrel.

I think Ken Howell's approach has merit: use the big case with a slowish powder and enjoy high--but not highest--speeds at lower pressures. There are certainly limits to such an approach, but the fact that powders are readily available to do this in even a .22-06 makes me wince at the term overbore.

Your comments on grooving are quite interesting. Are the 3 groove barrels cut with deeper grooves than the 5's? I've never looked into these, and it's not obvious (to me) why the bullets should be weakened so much more by them.

Over on another form, one cartridge designer agrees with the comments given here on most bullets being weak at .22-06 speeds, but feels the 3 groove barrels are worth any disadvantages (for what it's worth).

I found a bit of history on this forum. I'll note Ackley's comments on barrel life may have had to do with his propensity to run at excessive pressures (and thus temperatures). The forum posts include a link to a GS Custom page on hunting with a .22-06 cartridge and solid copper bullets.

The .22-06 is a more interesting topic than I'd have thought (but I still don't want one).


Edited by 2525 (04/25/10 03:59 PM)
Edit Reason: other forums

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#4028446 - 04/25/10 04:00 PM Re: 22-06 [Re: Siskiyous6]
RMulhern Offline
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Speed ain't where it's at there Bub! Barrel life and accuracy are what count but I feel quite certain it's a useless endeavor advising you otherwise!!

You'll just have to find out the hard way!!
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#4028467 - 04/25/10 04:07 PM Re: 22-06 [Re: RMulhern]
nsaqam Offline
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Registered: 05/01/08
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You really are an arrogant new guy aren't you Sharps!

Who the heck are you to tell siski what is important to him?
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I'm not one of the Chosin Few but no more remarkable group of Americans ever existed.

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#4028490 - 04/25/10 04:17 PM Re: 22-06 [Re: nsaqam]
hunter8mm Offline
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Registered: 07/19/09
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yeah pretty arrogant siski i think a 22-06 would be sweet sure would impress people at the range grin

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#4029868 - 04/26/10 06:27 AM Re: 22-06 [Re: 2525]
boatanchor Offline
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Registered: 11/11/06
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Originally Posted By: 2525


Over on another form, one cartridge designer agrees with the comments given here on most bullets being weak at .22-06 speeds, but feels the 3 groove barrels are worth any disadvantages (for what it's worth).


The gunsmith in this thread is Kirby Allen who I have a great deal of respect for and he has done work for me on several rifles. this thread is from 2005 and I know he has changed his mind on this topic since that time on large capacity 22cal and 6mmcal fast twist 3 groove barrel's. He hangs out on Long Range Hunting.com and we have discussed this topic many times in the last 5 years.
B

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#4029918 - 04/26/10 06:55 AM Re: 22-06 [Re: boatanchor]
2525 Offline
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Loc: U.S.A.
Thanks for the info, boatanchor, and I'll look over that site to see if I can learn why the 3 groove barrels are so destructive on such bullets.

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#4029935 - 04/26/10 07:02 AM Re: 22-06 [Re: 2525]
boatanchor Offline
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Registered: 11/11/06
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Originally Posted By: 2525


I think Ken Howell's approach has merit: use the big case with a slowish powder and enjoy high--but not highest--speeds at lower pressures. There are certainly limits to such an approach, but the fact that powders are readily available to do this in even a .22-06 makes me wince at the term overbore.



I agree that Ken Howell's approach has merit but sometimes it just does not work out that way.
I am a firm believer in working a load up shooting through a chronograph, as I stated earlier for a long range rifle the most important GOAL is to have a consistent shot to shot load that has a very low standard deviation, some of the new slow burning powders like RL25,Retumbo,VVN170,H1000 etc. help you to achieve this with a case capacity the size of a 22-06. problem is that MOST of the time your pressures are fairly high by the time you reach the GOAL. and backing off the load is counter productive.
B

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#4030092 - 04/26/10 08:10 AM Re: 22-06 [Re: boatanchor]
2525 Offline
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Registered: 06/02/02
Posts: 520
Loc: U.S.A.
I can believe that. Those powders are very heavily deterred.

I see at LongRangeHunting.com that as you pointed out, Mr. Allen now reports the 3 grooves to be a problem in the small bores. I've yet to find the why for this, though. I'll keep looking.

How do the monster cases do with the all copper bullets such as Barnes and G.S.Custom? Those bullets certainly won't fly apart. I ask because I see G.S. is making solid target bullets. While the speeds would be high, I'd think the lowish BC would make wind more of a problem.

Lastly, this forum title at LongRangeHunting.com made me laugh out loud: Long Range Shotgun Slug Hunting -- seems a bit of an oxymoron.


Edited by 2525 (04/26/10 11:04 AM)
Edit Reason: slugs

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#4031466 - 04/26/10 03:43 PM Re: 22-06 [Re: hunter8mm]
Siskiyous6 Offline
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Loc: Del Norte County, State of Jef...
Originally Posted By: hunter8mm
yeah pretty arrogant siski i think a 22-06 would be sweet sure would impress people at the range grin


I don't go to the range - I have a range - 500 yards right now out on the ranch, and I may get another 100 with some CAT work.

Which ever way I go vis a vis a long range .22, I am learning to be a better long range shooter every year.

If I was really an efficiency nut, I would stick to .22 Hornets and .308s. One thing I learned here for certain is the big 22's are not well explored territory.

A few of the claims here remind me of the stuff I hear about the 220 swift verses the 22-250, where everyone ignores the higher SAMMI Pressure Standard for the 22-250.
_________________________
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RAND PAUL 2016!

WHO IS
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LIBERTY!











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#4031540 - 04/26/10 04:09 PM Re: 22-06 [Re: Siskiyous6]
hunter8mm Offline
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Registered: 07/19/09
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you have your own range u lucky dog u i have a swift with a 1-9 twist barrel and a 22-250 with a shot out barrel wanting to make it a fast twist 22-6mm or a fast twist 6mmcant decide which way to go

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#4032103 - 04/26/10 07:16 PM Re: 22-06 [Re: Siskiyous6]
boatanchor Offline
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Registered: 11/11/06
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Originally Posted By: siskiyous6
One thing I learned here for certain is the big 22's are not well explored territory.

A few of the claims here remind me of the stuff I hear about the 220 swift verses the 22-250, where everyone ignores the higher SAMMI Pressure Standard for the 22-250.


After reading your first post I thought that I could really help you out because I have been down this path and learned a few things from several years experience, obviously from reading this post I wasted my time.
best of luck......out

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#4033554 - 04/27/10 10:27 AM Re: 22-06 [Re: Siskiyous6]
2525 Offline
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Registered: 06/02/02
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Loc: U.S.A.
Originally Posted By: siskiyous6
One thing I learned here for certain is the big 22's are not well explored territory.


Depends on which aspect of the problem you look at. From the standpoint of internal ballistics, the cartridge is old hat, for it is the ballistic twin of the .257 Wea. They have the same case capacity relative to the bore area and use bullets of nearly the same range of SD. Therefore, they'll use similar powders.

However, some of the mechanical stresses on the bullet will be greater for the smaller caliber. Personally, I'd look further into boatanchor's arguments here and follow up some of the leads he's given. Several have gone down this path; pick their brains.

Originally Posted By: boatanchor
some of the new slow burning powders like RL25, Retumbo, VVN170, H1000 etc... problem is that MOST of the time your pressures are fairly high by the time you reach the GOAL.


Ken Howell's approach might have its best chance with the longer stick powders. These don't have such a regressive shape and can get by with less deterrent. At reduced pressures, the erosive effects of stick powders noted by some shooters of similar cartridges might not be a concern.

I must admit this topic is quite fascinating. I'm a single shot guy who tends to small cartridges. This job is the opposite, and perhaps for that reason it attracts.

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#4034215 - 04/27/10 02:11 PM Re: 22-06 [Re: 2525]
Gene L Offline
Campfire Guide

Registered: 06/14/06
Posts: 4773
Loc: Georgia
Originally Posted By: 2525
I don't own a .22-06 nor do I care to, but for grins I ran the numbers through QuickLoad. It suggests that with modern powders, the cartridge is no longer "overbore;" powders such as Retumbo should give about 3300 fps at the higher pressures when using 90 gn bullets. Dropping the pressure into the 50's to try to improve barrel life will cost you only 150 fps. Either way, the muzzle blast ought to be impressive.


I disagree as to overbore. It's overbore, and a 22-06 would be overbore as well, regardless of the powder. When you've got X amount of gas trying to get through a Y diameter hole, if Y is very small, it's overbore.
_________________________
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#4034397 - 04/27/10 03:18 PM Re: 22-06 [Re: Gene L]
2525 Offline
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Loc: U.S.A.
Please, a number or the like to characterize "overbore" would be handy.

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#4034509 - 04/27/10 03:58 PM Re: 22-06 [Re: 2525]
THOMASMAGNUM Offline
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Registered: 05/04/07
Posts: 7468
Loc: Arizona
Been said before.... "barrel is the cheapest part of the rifle"

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#4034558 - 04/27/10 04:23 PM Re: 22-06 [Re: THOMASMAGNUM]
croldfort Offline
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Registered: 08/18/03
Posts: 4539
Loc: SE KS
The only long range shooter that I have known was an older fellow that built his own rifles. He shot 900yd matches with a .30-06 AI and 190 gr bullets.

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#4034612 - 04/27/10 04:40 PM Re: 22-06 [Re: 2525]
efw Offline
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Registered: 11/30/07
Posts: 11445
Loc: Mi.
Originally Posted By: 2525
Please, a number or the like to characterize "overbore" would be handy.


While I would say that it is relative to what the individual building the rifle is comfortable with, I'd say that it'd be best characterized as a ratio of powder weight to velocity, or, to make it a comparison, how much powder weight one adds to get a certain increase in velocity.

Would you all agree that'd be fair, recognizing that everybody would have their own definition from build to build?
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#4034888 - 04/27/10 05:51 PM Re: 22-06 [Re: efw]
2525 Offline
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Loc: U.S.A.
Fair enough; basically you want to define it in terms of the thermal efficiency of the conversion of the chemical energy in the powder into kinetic energy of the bullet. To do so, you'll need to specify as well peak pressure, barrel length, and bullet SD.

Since barrel length is to be part of the equation, then your definition will pretty much boil down to expansion ratio. Here, shorter barrels will demand smaller cartridges as will smaller bores.


Edited by 2525 (04/28/10 06:42 AM)
Edit Reason: explain

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#4036433 - 04/28/10 08:43 AM Re: 22-06 [Re: 2525]
Gene L Offline
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Registered: 06/14/06
Posts: 4773
Loc: Georgia
Originally Posted By: 2525
Please, a number or the like to characterize "overbore" would be handy.


Here's a good read on overbore, along with some examples that make sense to me. AND, a mathematical formula:

http://bulletin.accurateshooter.com/2008/05/overbore-cartridges-a-working-definition/
_________________________
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#4036750 - 04/28/10 10:29 AM Re: 22-06 [Re: Gene L]
2525 Offline
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Registered: 06/02/02
Posts: 520
Loc: U.S.A.
Divide those numbers by 252 and you get the units I used in my posts above. His units are gn water per sq in of bore. Converting the former to cu in leaves you "inches of bore," a concept easier to visualize. He really should, though, use net case capacity, not empty case capacity.

This ratio is indeed important in internal ballistics and is one of two ratios (the other is SD) which largely determine the needed powder speed. This version of the Powley Computer calculates that ratio.

His criteria for overbore is whether the cartridge is a "barrel burner." His number, though, fails to account for operating pressure which in turn determines the temperature of the gases. Lumping the medium pressure .257 Roberts in with the high pressure .22-250 seems a bit of a stretch.

If you assume for all cartridges the modern peak pressure limit of about 64,000 psi, you have a reasonable criteria for "overbore."

However, instead of using the vague term "overbore," why not simply call it a "barrel burner" directly? I'll note this fellow admits all "overbore" cartridges aren't barrel burners. Again, pressure and powder characteristics count.

While that definition of "overbore" is certainly workable, I still prefer the definition I listed earlier, one I recall I saw first from Ken Howell: it's overbore if the case is so large you can't find a powder to safely fill it.

Under this definition, "overbore" doesn't mean "barrel burner," it means "uselessly large." The .22-06 is large and likely a barrel burner, but it will indeed give you higher velocities than smaller .22's.

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#4040463 - 04/29/10 12:13 PM Re: 22-06 [Re: nsaqam]
rockchuck828 Offline
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Registered: 04/09/09
Posts: 1200
Originally Posted By: nsaqam


Overbore has become a term which gets tossed around but has very little to do with reality these days with our modern powder formulas.
It's a term out of history.

In that same vein so is the concept of a barrel burner. Modern, cooler burning powders with new additives and coatings means that throats erode much less rapidly than before.


You internet theorist nincompoop's really crack me up, in the new Hodgdon,IMR,Winchester basic reloading manual published JAN 2010 under powder descriptions "RETUMBO This magnum powder was designed expressly for the really large OVER-BORED cartridges".

Also one other misconception you have is that these new powders are of a slower burn rate not a cooler burn rate. you must think Retumbo shoot's popsicles out the muzzle laugh laugh
RC

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#4040466 - 04/29/10 12:17 PM Re: 22-06 [Re: rockchuck828]
rockchuck828 Offline
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Registered: 04/09/09
Posts: 1200
Originally Posted By: rockchuck828
Originally Posted By: 2525
a .22-06 with modern powders, the cartridge is no longer "overbore;"


One of the most rediculous post's ever but a good laugh laugh laugh
RC

You might want to check out the previous post as well even if it makes you wince

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#4040476 - 04/29/10 12:21 PM Re: 22-06 [Re: rockchuck828]
nsaqam Offline
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Registered: 05/01/08
Posts: 16540
Loc: Hermantown MN
Yep, you're right rockchuck now go back to your crib and bottle you idiot. You might have your mommy change your diaper too because you stink.
_________________________
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I'm not one of the Chosin Few but no more remarkable group of Americans ever existed.

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#4040483 - 04/29/10 12:23 PM Re: 22-06 [Re: rockchuck828]
rockchuck828 Offline
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Registered: 04/09/09
Posts: 1200
As an added bonus from this same manual printed JAN 2010
"IMR7828 The BIG magnum powder.This slow burner gives real magnum performance to the large OVER-BORED magnums"

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#4040486 - 04/29/10 12:25 PM Re: 22-06 [Re: nsaqam]
rockchuck828 Offline
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Registered: 04/09/09
Posts: 1200
Originally Posted By: nsaqam
Yep, you're right rockchuck now go back to your crib and bottle you idiot. You might have your mommy change your diaper too because you stink.


Not my fault you have rectal-cranial inversion.

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#4040488 - 04/29/10 12:25 PM Re: 22-06 [Re: rockchuck828]
nsaqam Offline
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Registered: 05/01/08
Posts: 16540
Loc: Hermantown MN
Not my fault you're inbred!
_________________________
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I'm not one of the Chosin Few but no more remarkable group of Americans ever existed.

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#4040635 - 04/29/10 01:11 PM Re: 22-06 [Re: rockchuck828]
2525 Offline
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Registered: 06/02/02
Posts: 520
Loc: U.S.A.
Originally Posted By: rockchuck828
"IMR7828 The BIG magnum powder. This slow burner gives real magnum performance to the large OVER-BORED magnums"


Which rather goes along with my point. If the new slower burning powder increases performance, then before that powder, the case was too large to be safely filled. What was then overbore, now is not. So there.

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#4040698 - 04/29/10 01:42 PM Re: 22-06 [Re: 2525]
BarryC Offline
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Registered: 03/06/04
Posts: 8068
I never thought "over bore" was an scientific/engineering term. grin
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#4040840 - 04/29/10 02:29 PM Re: 22-06 [Re: BarryC]
2525 Offline
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Loc: U.S.A.
We're working on it. wink

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#4040853 - 04/29/10 02:31 PM Re: 22-06 [Re: peepsight3006]
rost495 Offline
Campfire Oracle

Registered: 01/05/05
Posts: 34741
Loc: La Grange, TX
Originally Posted By: peepsight3006
Originally Posted By: atkinson
Muledeer,
I talked to Ross not long ago and he was still there! I'll give him a call.

For long range shooting I would think the 22 caliber a bad choice, as it tends to drop off in velocity and it certainly is wind sensitive IMO...

Personally I would opt for a 30 caliber or at least a 6mm. but thats just an opine on my part.


Shore nuff. Ray, the folks that do the 22/XXX bit are muzzle velocity blind. They can tell you within a few fps what she does at the muzzle, but are immune to logic when it comes to downrange stuff, like retained velocity due the BC, which is at least partially dependent on SD. When you show them what happens to a 200 grain partition (BC of .56) compared to a 45 grain .22 at distances from 400 out, they almost always come up with the "yea, but" that goes with denial.

Yea, I know I'm preaching to the choir, but at least you will listen and nod, knowing that a 375 shoots just as flat as an '06.

Wayne


Or a 90 jlk in .224 with a BC of .560(adjusted to .540 by my shooting out to 1000).... just saying....
_________________________
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#4041537 - 04/29/10 06:22 PM Re: 22-06 [Re: 2525]
rockchuck828 Offline
Campfire Regular

Registered: 04/09/09
Posts: 1200
Originally Posted By: 2525
Originally Posted By: rockchuck828
"IMR7828 The BIG magnum powder. This slow burner gives real magnum performance to the large OVER-BORED magnums"


Which rather goes along with my point. If the new slower burning powder increases performance, then before that powder, the case was too large to be safely filled. What was then overbore, now is not. So there.


Obviously you are wrong, but just as obvious you wont admit it. but at least you had the dignity to side step the truth instead of drop a deuce in your britches like nsaqam.
RC
one last pearl "H1000 This very slow burning Extreme Extruded powder is perfect for highly OVER-BORED magnums"

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#4041592 - 04/29/10 06:42 PM Re: 22-06 [Re: rockchuck828]
bcp Offline
Campfire Guide

Registered: 03/04/05
Posts: 4359
Loc: SW WA
Who started calling a bore too small for the cartridge capacity "overbore?"

"Overchambered" makes more sense. smile

Bruce

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#4041794 - 04/29/10 07:32 PM Re: 22-06 [Re: rockchuck828]
2525 Offline
Campfire Regular

Registered: 06/02/02
Posts: 520
Loc: U.S.A.
Originally Posted By: rockchuck828
Obviously you are wrong, but just as obvious you wont admit it.


Okay, right vs. wrong is determined by advertising hype. You win.

In the end, it's as simple as which definition to "overbore" do you like. You prefer relative case capacity; I prefer suitable powder burning speed. As I mentioned in the previous posts, both definitions have merit. I'll certainly admit mine is more esoteric.

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#4041816 - 04/29/10 07:38 PM Re: 22-06 [Re: rost495]
dubePA Offline
Campfire Guide

Registered: 02/04/01
Posts: 3774
Loc: PA
http://www.swampworks.com/jlk/

Alas, the 65gr VLDs my 22-06 was fond of, were dropped by Knox some years before he sold the business.
_________________________
If three or more people think you're a dimwit, chances are at least one of them is right.

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#4041840 - 04/29/10 07:45 PM Re: 22-06 [Re: dubePA]
rost495 Offline
Campfire Oracle

Registered: 01/05/05
Posts: 34741
Loc: La Grange, TX
Jimmy made a 75 that one of my guns just LOVED... IIRC he didn't make that one much longer either....
_________________________
May the road rise to meet you, May the wind be always at your back, May the sun shine warm upon your face, The rains fall soft upon your fields and, Until we meet again, May God hold you in the palm of His hand.

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#4042215 - 04/30/10 12:30 AM Re: 22-06 [Re: Siskiyous6]
222Rem Offline
Campfire Outfitter

Registered: 01/26/05
Posts: 7779
Loc: Eastern, OR
Siskiyou, I don't have dog in this fight, but still felt like throwing out a couple ideas.

If you're looking at a heavy, 28" barreled long range fun gun, on an '06 action, have you considered the .280AI? If you think the 90gr JLK's .580BC is sweet, take a look at the 162Amax @ .625, or the 168JLK @ .690! Yes, you'd have more recoil, but also more down range energy, barrel life, and wind fighting ability. A 6-06 or 6-06AI shooting 105Amax's (.500BC), or 105/115JLKs (.560+) wouldn't stink either, and would reduce recoil if that's a major factor for you. It's also rare enough that you'd have exclusive bragging rights for your neighborhood (assuming that's part of the .22-06's charm for you).

Your journey, and your money. I'm just throwin' out some ideas for ya. smile
_________________________

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gospel of envy, its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery"
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#4042735 - 04/30/10 07:40 AM Re: 22-06 [Re: rost495]
dubePA Offline
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Registered: 02/04/01
Posts: 3774
Loc: PA
Quote:
Jimmy made a 75 that one of my guns just LOVED... IIRC he didn't make that one much longer either....


If you check the link above, the new owners are making 75gr VLDs. Don't know if it's the same as the one you mentioned?

I emailed Knox some years ago (probably 2003?), because his site showed the 60 and 65gr versions as unavailable at the time. He responded that he doubted they'd ever be available again, because he was swamped with orders for the heavier .224 bullets, from shooters that used them for competition in fast twist ARs.
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#4042927 - 04/30/10 09:01 AM Re: 22-06 [Re: 2525]
2525 Offline
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Registered: 06/02/02
Posts: 520
Loc: U.S.A.
Originally Posted By: 2525
In the end, it's as simple as which definition to "overbore" do you like.


Here's another definition for overbore, presented by one of the members of this forum in an article written many years ago. He characterizes overbore in terms of thermal efficiency. If one assumes a certain peak pressure, barrel length, and bullet SD, the efficiency comes down to expansion ratio, which in turn comes down to the relative case capacity. He comes up with the same number as the fellow who uses relative case capacity to try to characterize a barrel burner.

Now we have three definitions: barrel burner, inefficient, and uselessly large. Take your pick.

A google search will find that this topic has been discussed before on these forums (of course). For what it's worth, Ken Howell's definition is there, and that's the one I've been using. For him, the definition is best used with respect to a specific powder.


Edited by 2525 (04/30/10 09:35 AM)
Edit Reason: previous forum thread

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#4043011 - 04/30/10 09:26 AM Re: 22-06 [Re: 2525]
dubePA Offline
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Registered: 02/04/01
Posts: 3774
Loc: PA
Don't know about anyone else, but my "barrel burner" lore dates back to the early 60s, when many were still touting the 220 Swift as the worst example of that mystical phenomenon?

Last I looked, several manufacturers are still making them awful things.

The next related topic I recollect from those days, concerned Remington bringing out the 25-06 in a factory chambering. Same predictions: "That'll smoke more barrels than the Swift!"

I can also recall when several 1000BR shooters I knew here in PA, were arguing over whether or not the 7mmx300Wby. bench guns would ever pan out, since some were sure the barrels of the day would never "hold up" to that cartridge.
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#4043092 - 04/30/10 09:49 AM Re: 22-06 [Re: dubePA]
2525 Offline
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Registered: 06/02/02
Posts: 520
Loc: U.S.A.
dubePA, what sort of barrel life have you and other .22-06 shooters been getting?

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#4043114 - 04/30/10 09:56 AM Re: 22-06 [Re: dubePA]
nsaqam Offline
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Registered: 05/01/08
Posts: 16540
Loc: Hermantown MN
Exactly my point Dube in the post that rock got so bent about.
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#4043370 - 04/30/10 11:35 AM Re: 22-06 [Re: 2525]
dubePA Offline
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Registered: 02/04/01
Posts: 3774
Loc: PA
Quote:
dubePA, what sort of barrel life have you and other .22-06 shooters been getting?


Haven't shot mine enough lately to give a proper analysis (ran out of its favorite bullets), but the 1x9 twist Douglass already had a few thousand rounds down it, when it was a 220 Swift barrel from new.

With 65gr VLDs, my rifle would put all five into one enlarged hole @ 100 yds, hold about an inch @ 300 yds. With 60gr Vmax bullets, it'll do 1/2" to 5/8" @ 100 yards.

I do have some Sierra 65gr Game Kings (BT spitzers) for 7 to 10 twist barrels, but haven't tried them yet. Bearing surface is around .310, length is about .850. Listed BC is 303.

A bud that built heavy varminters, gave me the barrel. He went to a 28" Douglass 1x8 twist on his 22-06. My barrel was shortened to 26" via the rechambering,re-threading, which took out the original Swift throat and recrowned. He installed it on a Savage action I'd picked up.

My 1x9 twist does not much like anything heavier than 65grs, so far.

The bud that built mine, had a few thousand rounds through his 22-06 with zero ill effects. IIRC, the farthest he'd taken any woodchucks with it, was probably around 700 yards? I believe he was primarily shooting 75gr JLKs in it.
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#4044292 - 04/30/10 05:23 PM Re: 22-06 [Re: dubePA]
rockchuck828 Offline
Campfire Regular

Registered: 04/09/09
Posts: 1200
Originally Posted By: dubePA


The bud that built mine, had a few thousand rounds through his 22-06 with zero ill effects.


You are so full of schitt that your eyes must be brown, even my 6ppc wont make it that far with "zero ill effects".... come back with something real instead of making such ponderous claims and lets have a REAL discussion on this topic, in the meantime nsaqam can change his soiled undies and we can have a real world discussion without his childish vitriol.
RC

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#4044347 - 04/30/10 05:45 PM Re: 22-06 [Re: rockchuck828]
dubePA Offline
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Registered: 02/04/01
Posts: 3774
Loc: PA
And your reply amounts to what, as a comparison?

Some frequent this site for intelligent discussions. Others such as yourself, are apparently still searching for the attention mommy never gave them?
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#4044359 - 04/30/10 05:50 PM Re: 22-06 [Re: dubePA]
nsaqam Offline
Campfire Kahuna

Registered: 05/01/08
Posts: 16540
Loc: Hermantown MN
Rockchuck is an idiot and he's the second person to go on my ignore list.
_________________________
The Chosin Few November to December 1950, Korea.
I'm not one of the Chosin Few but no more remarkable group of Americans ever existed.

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#4044392 - 04/30/10 06:06 PM Re: 22-06 [Re: nsaqam]
dubePA Offline
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Registered: 02/04/01
Posts: 3774
Loc: PA
In nine years, think I've only ever put two on the iggy list. Might could add another one without much fuss? ;O)
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If three or more people think you're a dimwit, chances are at least one of them is right.

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#4052941 - 05/03/10 03:15 PM Re: 22-06 [Re: nsaqam]
rockchuck828 Offline
Campfire Regular

Registered: 04/09/09
Posts: 1200
Originally Posted By: nsaqam
Rockchuck is an idiot and he's the second person to go on my ignore list.


All I did was point out that you were wrong and you shat yourself, sounds more like you are the idiot

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#4052956 - 05/03/10 03:19 PM Re: 22-06 [Re: dubePA]
rockchuck828 Offline
Campfire Regular

Registered: 04/09/09
Posts: 1200
Originally Posted By: dubePA
In nine years, think I've only ever put two on the iggy list. Might could add another one without much fuss? ;O)


Your claims are beyond what is reasonable, if that is what puts me on your iggy list go for it.

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