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Originally Posted by boatanchor
someone(s) got offended on one of my previous posts when I called the 22-06 OVERBORE. to give you a more accurate assessment think of it as diminishing returns.


If that's what you meant by overbore, then I certainly understand the point you were trying to make. Much of the powder energy is wasted in cartridges like these, unless you're using a fantastically long barrel.

I think Ken Howell's approach has merit: use the big case with a slowish powder and enjoy high--but not highest--speeds at lower pressures. There are certainly limits to such an approach, but the fact that powders are readily available to do this in even a .22-06 makes me wince at the term overbore.

Your comments on grooving are quite interesting. Are the 3 groove barrels cut with deeper grooves than the 5's? I've never looked into these, and it's not obvious (to me) why the bullets should be weakened so much more by them.

Over on another form, one cartridge designer agrees with the comments given here on most bullets being weak at .22-06 speeds, but feels the 3 groove barrels are worth any disadvantages (for what it's worth).

I found a bit of history on this forum. I'll note Ackley's comments on barrel life may have had to do with his propensity to run at excessive pressures (and thus temperatures). The forum posts include a link to a GS Custom page on hunting with a .22-06 cartridge and solid copper bullets.

The .22-06 is a more interesting topic than I'd have thought (but I still don't want one).

Last edited by 2525; 04/25/10. Reason: other forums
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Speed ain't where it's at there Bub! Barrel life and accuracy are what count but I feel quite certain it's a useless endeavor advising you otherwise!!

You'll just have to find out the hard way!!


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You really are an arrogant new guy aren't you Sharps!

Who the heck are you to tell siski what is important to him?


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yeah pretty arrogant siski i think a 22-06 would be sweet sure would impress people at the range grin

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Originally Posted by 2525


Over on another form, one cartridge designer agrees with the comments given here on most bullets being weak at .22-06 speeds, but feels the 3 groove barrels are worth any disadvantages (for what it's worth).


The gunsmith in this thread is Kirby Allen who I have a great deal of respect for and he has done work for me on several rifles. this thread is from 2005 and I know he has changed his mind on this topic since that time on large capacity 22cal and 6mmcal fast twist 3 groove barrel's. He hangs out on Long Range Hunting.com and we have discussed this topic many times in the last 5 years.
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Thanks for the info, boatanchor, and I'll look over that site to see if I can learn why the 3 groove barrels are so destructive on such bullets.

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Originally Posted by 2525


I think Ken Howell's approach has merit: use the big case with a slowish powder and enjoy high--but not highest--speeds at lower pressures. There are certainly limits to such an approach, but the fact that powders are readily available to do this in even a .22-06 makes me wince at the term overbore.



I agree that Ken Howell's approach has merit but sometimes it just does not work out that way.
I am a firm believer in working a load up shooting through a chronograph, as I stated earlier for a long range rifle the most important GOAL is to have a consistent shot to shot load that has a very low standard deviation, some of the new slow burning powders like RL25,Retumbo,VVN170,H1000 etc. help you to achieve this with a case capacity the size of a 22-06. problem is that MOST of the time your pressures are fairly high by the time you reach the GOAL. and backing off the load is counter productive.
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I can believe that. Those powders are very heavily deterred.

I see at LongRangeHunting.com that as you pointed out, Mr. Allen now reports the 3 grooves to be a problem in the small bores. I've yet to find the why for this, though. I'll keep looking.

How do the monster cases do with the all copper bullets such as Barnes and G.S.Custom? Those bullets certainly won't fly apart. I ask because I see G.S. is making solid target bullets. While the speeds would be high, I'd think the lowish BC would make wind more of a problem.

Lastly, this forum title at LongRangeHunting.com made me laugh out loud: Long Range Shotgun Slug Hunting -- seems a bit of an oxymoron.

Last edited by 2525; 04/26/10. Reason: slugs
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Originally Posted by hunter8mm
yeah pretty arrogant siski i think a 22-06 would be sweet sure would impress people at the range grin


I don't go to the range - I have a range - 500 yards right now out on the ranch, and I may get another 100 with some CAT work.

Which ever way I go vis a vis a long range .22, I am learning to be a better long range shooter every year.

If I was really an efficiency nut, I would stick to .22 Hornets and .308s. One thing I learned here for certain is the big 22's are not well explored territory.

A few of the claims here remind me of the stuff I hear about the 220 swift verses the 22-250, where everyone ignores the higher SAMMI Pressure Standard for the 22-250.


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you have your own range u lucky dog u i have a swift with a 1-9 twist barrel and a 22-250 with a shot out barrel wanting to make it a fast twist 22-6mm or a fast twist 6mmcant decide which way to go

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Originally Posted by siskiyous6
One thing I learned here for certain is the big 22's are not well explored territory.

A few of the claims here remind me of the stuff I hear about the 220 swift verses the 22-250, where everyone ignores the higher SAMMI Pressure Standard for the 22-250.


After reading your first post I thought that I could really help you out because I have been down this path and learned a few things from several years experience, obviously from reading this post I wasted my time.
best of luck......out

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Originally Posted by siskiyous6
One thing I learned here for certain is the big 22's are not well explored territory.


Depends on which aspect of the problem you look at. From the standpoint of internal ballistics, the cartridge is old hat, for it is the ballistic twin of the .257 Wea. They have the same case capacity relative to the bore area and use bullets of nearly the same range of SD. Therefore, they'll use similar powders.

However, some of the mechanical stresses on the bullet will be greater for the smaller caliber. Personally, I'd look further into boatanchor's arguments here and follow up some of the leads he's given. Several have gone down this path; pick their brains.

Originally Posted by boatanchor
some of the new slow burning powders like RL25, Retumbo, VVN170, H1000 etc... problem is that MOST of the time your pressures are fairly high by the time you reach the GOAL.


Ken Howell's approach might have its best chance with the longer stick powders. These don't have such a regressive shape and can get by with less deterrent. At reduced pressures, the erosive effects of stick powders noted by some shooters of similar cartridges might not be a concern.

I must admit this topic is quite fascinating. I'm a single shot guy who tends to small cartridges. This job is the opposite, and perhaps for that reason it attracts.

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Originally Posted by 2525
I don't own a .22-06 nor do I care to, but for grins I ran the numbers through QuickLoad. It suggests that with modern powders, the cartridge is no longer "overbore;" powders such as Retumbo should give about 3300 fps at the higher pressures when using 90 gn bullets. Dropping the pressure into the 50's to try to improve barrel life will cost you only 150 fps. Either way, the muzzle blast ought to be impressive.


I disagree as to overbore. It's overbore, and a 22-06 would be overbore as well, regardless of the powder. When you've got X amount of gas trying to get through a Y diameter hole, if Y is very small, it's overbore.


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Please, a number or the like to characterize "overbore" would be handy.

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Been said before.... "barrel is the cheapest part of the rifle"


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The only long range shooter that I have known was an older fellow that built his own rifles. He shot 900yd matches with a .30-06 AI and 190 gr bullets.

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Originally Posted by 2525
Please, a number or the like to characterize "overbore" would be handy.


While I would say that it is relative to what the individual building the rifle is comfortable with, I'd say that it'd be best characterized as a ratio of powder weight to velocity, or, to make it a comparison, how much powder weight one adds to get a certain increase in velocity.

Would you all agree that'd be fair, recognizing that everybody would have their own definition from build to build?

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Fair enough; basically you want to define it in terms of the thermal efficiency of the conversion of the chemical energy in the powder into kinetic energy of the bullet. To do so, you'll need to specify as well peak pressure, barrel length, and bullet SD.

Since barrel length is to be part of the equation, then your definition will pretty much boil down to expansion ratio. Here, shorter barrels will demand smaller cartridges as will smaller bores.

Last edited by 2525; 04/28/10. Reason: explain
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Originally Posted by 2525
Please, a number or the like to characterize "overbore" would be handy.


Here's a good read on overbore, along with some examples that make sense to me. AND, a mathematical formula:

http://bulletin.accurateshooter.com/2008/05/overbore-cartridges-a-working-definition/


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Divide those numbers by 252 and you get the units I used in my posts above. His units are gn water per sq in of bore. Converting the former to cu in leaves you "inches of bore," a concept easier to visualize. He really should, though, use net case capacity, not empty case capacity.

This ratio is indeed important in internal ballistics and is one of two ratios (the other is SD) which largely determine the needed powder speed. This version of the Powley Computer calculates that ratio.

His criteria for overbore is whether the cartridge is a "barrel burner." His number, though, fails to account for operating pressure which in turn determines the temperature of the gases. Lumping the medium pressure .257 Roberts in with the high pressure .22-250 seems a bit of a stretch.

If you assume for all cartridges the modern peak pressure limit of about 64,000 psi, you have a reasonable criteria for "overbore."

However, instead of using the vague term "overbore," why not simply call it a "barrel burner" directly? I'll note this fellow admits all "overbore" cartridges aren't barrel burners. Again, pressure and powder characteristics count.

While that definition of "overbore" is certainly workable, I still prefer the definition I listed earlier, one I recall I saw first from Ken Howell: it's overbore if the case is so large you can't find a powder to safely fill it.

Under this definition, "overbore" doesn't mean "barrel burner," it means "uselessly large." The .22-06 is large and likely a barrel burner, but it will indeed give you higher velocities than smaller .22's.

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