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Which one hits hardest and is more accurate? Which would you choose?

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A really broad question that cannot be answered. There are too many variables including rifle weight, stock shape, inherent accuracy, loads used, and shooter's ability to handle the recoil.

I have both - the 458 is only @ 8 lbs and kicks like a mule. The 416 RM is closer to 10 lbs scoped and loaded and I can shoot it off the bench.

So ... the most important question might be which one can you shoot most accurately.


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Depends on the "mate" cartridge you have for it?

If you have a .338 then the .416 is the common mate. If you have a .300 then the .458 is the common mate.

I have owned both and prefer the .458. It hits harder, has more caliber, more bullet weight for dangerous game, and still has a slew of quality light weight bullets that replicate .416 recoil levels, velocities and trajectories where .40 caliber rifles are used.


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I had to admit, after some experience, that I could not shoot well with the big 45 cal rifles. For me, the 416 Rigby (Remmy version replicates its performance with non handloads) was the solution. It has turned out to be all I have needed on all including the biggest of game over and over again so this was my answer. Shoot the biggest rifle that you can shoot WELL! Rifle weight is a plus in these.


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To my mind, they are both as accurate as you want to make them. There is no reason why either can't be a 1MOA rifle or less as long as the shooter, rifle, and ammunition are up to it at the same time. If you can keep two shots within 2 inches at 50 yards, that is probably sufficient for anything you would hunt with with either round so accuracy usually isn't the driving force in the cartridge selection for DG.

As to which would I choose, I went with the .416 over the .458. I think it depends on just what you're going to do with it. Myself, I was most interested in using it for buff and did not ever foresee myself being able to afford to go elephant hunting where I think the .458 probably has the edge over the .416. For buff, though, the .458 isn't necessary and the .416 has plenty so that is why I went the route I did. Now, if I were to buy a .458, I'd go the Lott route just because then I could still shoot the shorter Winchester round if I wanted to but could alway ratchet up the power a bit just by using the longer Lott case. In any event, I think the .416 is a good compromise if you're only going to have one rifle to do it all on safari. It is more than enough for buff, leopard, and lion and will certainly get the job done on an elephant with the right solid bullet. The .416 won't ever be considered a "stopper" but I don't think that's what you were getting at. Just my humble opinion.
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Originally Posted by mtech
Which one hits hardest and is more accurate? Which would you choose?


mtech;

Welcome to the Campfire!

I think there's little argument that the .458WM hits harder than the .416 Rem if we compare 400grs to 500grs. A 400gr would have to leave the muzzle at 2500 fps to match the momentum of a 500 gr at 2000 fps. That's probably more than the Remington can produce and for the.458 that's a rather mild load.

As to accuracy... it has already been stated: both are capable of fine accuracy potential, perhaps more than the shooter! grin But loads that make MOA, or better, are common if the shooter is up to it.

Which would I choose? Well, I've chosen the .458 in a CZ because I simply like shooting .458" projectiles... There are many more components available for .458" than for .416", and that includes the brass. I've used .45-70s for many years and I consider the .458WM a logical extension of that. I've never lost any animal hit with a .458" slug.

But, I think you couldn't go wrong with either cartridge in a good rifle. In a .458WM, just don't go too light. 10lbs is about the minimum (all up) I would recommend if you intend to do much shooting of the real heavyweights at, or near, max velocity.

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It's been said that "there's no substitute for cubic inches", but the choice would depend on your intended quarry. The .416 would be more versatile, while the .458 would hit harder.

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What game are you hunting? As touched upon in an earlier post, .458 components are much easier to find (and are cheaper) than .416 components. The Remington 405 gr .458 bullet designed for the .45/70 is the inexpensive plinking bullet of choice for most. On the other hand a .300 gr Barnes TSX can be loaded to virtually duplicate a .375 H&H out of a .416 Remington.

As a visiting hunter, it makes no real difference which cartridge you pick. I'd say rifle quality and fit are far more important questions. With good marksmanship and quality ammo, there is no bad choice.

For fun shooting, the .458 is much the more practical for the reasons mentioned above. For hunting large non-African game (moose, bison, etc.), the .416 is probably a bit easier to load for 2-300 yard shooting.

One caveat: neither cartridge is likely to be particularly pleasant or forgiving when shot from a well-supported position. Watch your eye-relief with extreme care when performing your initial testing.

All that out of the way, I think the recoil issue is greatly exaggerated for both cartridges. Assuming the rifle fits you well (the key issue) and the rifle weight is sane (no 6.5 lb rifles!), neither cartridge falls into the brutal category. Make sure the rifle fits and that you have ample eye-relief and you'll be fine.

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I have a 375 H&H. A 458 Winchester Magnum and a 500 NE 3" (as far as the nastier rifles go.

The 375 H&H is easy to load for and easier on the shoulder than the heavy 458 loads or the 500 NE loads.
I've got a 300gr load for my 375 H&H that I love. I've recently started messing with the lighter bullets.

But if I was forced to pick....between 416 rem mag and the 458 win I'd probably pick the 416 even though the bullets cost 2 arms and a leg. It's closer to my 375 H&H and I love that cartridge. It has a bit more weight and diam than the 375 H&H. I'm sure a bit more recoil as well?????

I'm afraid I'll need to get one as well.

Here is a fun article

You can find it here if you prefer to read it not jumbled together
http://www.riflemagazine.com/magazine/article.cfm?tocid=153&magid=15

A GUIDE'S NOTES
.416 Remington
A Dangerous Game Rifle

Hunting large dangerous game is not a lot different than hunting any other game except for the fact the beast might, at some point, decide to attack the hunter. When that happens the bigger the gun one is carrying the better. If bore size were the only consideration, though, everyone would be carrying some sort of portable field artillery piece. Bore size, however, is not, and never has been, a substitute for precise bullet placement, and light rifles and smaller calibers are more comfortable to carry and easier to shoot accurately.

This fact has posed a conundrum for hunters for over a century. D.W.M. "Karomojo" Bell is undoubtedly the most famous hunter whom advocates of light, smallbore rifles and precise bullet placement bring into any argument of bore size. Bell is credited with killing over 1,000 elephants with solid 160-grain bullets in the 6.5 Mannlicher-Sch�nauer and 175-grain bullets in the 7mm Mauser. He was undoubtedly a superb shot, capable of hitting flying birds with his rifle and, by his own accounts, exceedingly lucky. The argument that since Bell did it on elephants then anyone can do it is hardly convincing. People have fallen from airplanes without parachutes and survived, but the practice is hardly to be recommended.

On the other side of the equation are the large bore fanatics and their paragon Elmer Keith, who once stated the .375 H&H was a pretty good deer rifle. I actually believe there was a bit of tongue-in-cheek to some of Elmer's stories, but he was an honest-to-gosh believer in large bores. Heavy bullets and stupefying energies are directly correlated with brutal recoil, however, and most of us mere mortals cannot shoot to our best abilities knowing each time we close our eyes and yank the trigger we're going to get hammered. Eventually we all migrate toward some sort of compromise caliber depending upon our ability to handle recoil.

I have been hunting dangerous game and experimenting with large caliber rifles for nearly three decades. In this time I have hunted on four continents and, at one time or another, been a firm subscriber to each theory. I have experienced a few spitting distance, blood and thunder, kill or be killed charges, but they were usually a result of poor tactics or planning on someone's part - usually mine.

As a professional hunting guide I get to see numerous hunters shooting various rifles, calibers and bullets. A majority are competent if not good shots, but each year one or two can be counted on to misplace their bullets. I am then required to use my rifle either to assure a humane kill or to prevent the animal from escaping or charging. Very early in my career I learned if I were ready, attentive and in range, I could usually hit the animal solidly before it had recovered, thereby settling the matter. Any caliber and bullet satisfactory for hunting the animal worked fine for this. I completely subscribed to Karomojo Bell's placement-is-all-it-takes theory. I used a .30-06 and 200-grain Nosler Partition pushed to 2,700 fps and was completely satisfied. Experience, however, often has a way of dispelling even the best theory.
Bell hunted by himself and was experienced enough to wait until he was absolutely certain where the bullet was going. He did not have to allow an inexperienced, out-of-shape novice the first shot. Surprise and the unexpected are a main attraction in any form of hunting, but on dangerous game the unexpected can have serious repercussions. When large, dangerous animals are hunted in thick brush or undulating terrain, places where they can disappear with one step, a poorly placed bullet can make life downright fascinating in a hurry. There is nothing intrinsically wrong with the accurate placement theory. I have painfully learned, however, that accurately placing a bullet on an erratic, rapidly advancing nightmare with your body pumped full of adrenaline can be problematic at best and fatal at worst. Bore size, bullet weight and kinetic energy (stopping power) might not equal the "killing power" of an accurately placed bullet, but under these circumstances it can be a close, and much welcomed, substitute.

There have been all sorts of theories postulated on how to measure stopping power. I don't have any new formulas. The simple fact is hunters bring about the death of an animal by one of two means. Either a bullet disrupts the brain or spinal cord (central nervous system) and causes instantaneous death or else the animal dies of shock caused by massive blood loss, which results in the brain shutting down. Precise bullet placement will cause this, but so will very large holes. It is an irrefutable fact that large holes bleed more than smaller ones and two holes more than one. Large, heavy bullets are also better at breaking down heavy bones and immobilizing large beasts. Elmer Keith knew this. So do most professional hunters around the world.

Fifteen years ago I built a serious stopping rifle for use in Alaska. Reliability and dependability, of course, were paramount, but power, accuracy, weight, fit and feel were also important factors. I used a .458 Winchester Interarms Mk X Mauser barreled action, a modified fiberglass stock and a Leupold 2x compact scope. The rifle has served me well, but in the past few years there has been a plethora of new calibers, rifles, bullets, sights, mounts and stocks introduced, options that weren't available when the rifle was assembled. I decided to see what was available and to build another rifle.

Other rifles besides the .458 are occasionally used; I have a reproduction Model 1886 Browning/Winchester .45-70 carbine and a Bauska actioned .505 Gibbs. Both are powerful, reliable short-range stoppers, and I see no reason to scope either of them. They are used for special purposes: the Browning daily when guiding salmon fishermen and bear photographers and the Gibbs when someone wants to get up close and personal and stick an arrow in a massive brown bear.

When the .458 was originally built, extensive range testing of the speed and accuracy of various iron and scope sights was done and a low-power scope was settled on. Electronic red dot sights were not then available, and I wanted to try them. My 17-year-old son Taj and I spent an afternoon switching various sights back and forth between our rifles testing for speed and accuracy.

In order to be purely scientific, I suppose we should have used only one rifle and switched the sights on it, but our times and results were consistent with a similar test I did in 1984 with only the .458. My son's younger reflexes resulted in faster times with most sights, but I think familiarity with individual rifles and scopes might have affected some scores.

We conducted our tests with the shooter facing sideways to the target and, on command from the timer with a stopwatch, turning and firing as quickly as possible and hitting a paper plate 25 yards away. We used open V iron sights, large "ghost ring" peep sights, low-power scopes (Leupold 2x and 1-4x variable set at 1x) and Bushnell's red dot Holosight. We each fired five times with each sight and computed the average. Holosight and open V tests were done with a Mauser actioned .375 Scovill. The peep sight and 21/2x scope were with our individual Mauser actioned .458s. The 1x scope test was fired with a Mauser .35 Whelen. Following are the results of our testing for speed (in seconds).

Phil Taj
Peep: 1.27 1.19
Open V: 1.25 1.12
Holosight: 1.08 1.17
Scope 1x: .99 1.25
Scope 2�x: 1.40 1.35

The Bushnell Holosight proved to be rugged, extremely fast and accurate on target acquisition. It cannot, however, be mounted low over the receiver, which forced us to shoot without our cheeks firmly on the stock. On a heavy recoiling rifle this can be painful. Many states (Alaska included) have also made it illegal to hunt big game with any electronic sight. The Holosight is a remarkable piece of technology and is proving ideal for handgun target shooting. It would also be great for certain specialized operations, such as nighttime culling operations, but I am a firm believer in the K.I.S.S. (keep it simple, stupid) principle for backup rifles, and if the battery fails you have no sight.

In the iron sight category, the open V was marginally faster than the peep on large, close targets, but the peep was noticeably more accurate, especially as the range increased. If I were using iron sights only I would definitely choose a peep. For me a low-power scope proved to be the fastest by far. Scopes also proved to be the most accurate for both of us. Besides speed, a scope allows one to see and identify the target better. At dusk or in thick brush, it enables the hunter the ability to accurately place a killing shot. A scope also facilitates bullet placement at longer ranges, and most wounded game will initially try to run away rather than attack. Being able to stop a fleeing animal is the best way to avoid having to wrinkle them out of the pucker brush.
My first choice of action type for a dangerous game rifle is still one form or another of the rugged, tried and true Mauser Model 98. That said, I have no problem with Winchester lever actions, good double guns, Springfields, Enfields, Winchester Model 70s or the new Ruger MKII. When Winchester offered the new Model 70 classic in stainless steel I immediately ordered one. I had always thought stainless steel would offer some very real advantages around saltwater and in wet environs.

Caliber choice was the area I had agonized over the longest when I built my .458 Winchester Magnum. I previously had used a .375 H&H and found little to criticize. My favorite bullets back then were the Nosler Partition, and when Nosler dropped the .375 during the 1970s, I was unable to acquire a suitable substitute. The next logical step up, caliber-wise, at that time was the .458 Winchester Magnum. With it I discovered bullet weight and bore size really do matter. I missed the versatility and trajectory of the .375 H&H though.

When Remington introduced its .416 magnum and Ruger the .416 Rigby, there was a slow ground swell of Alaskan guides, especially on Kodiak Island and the Alaskan Peninsula, who traded in their .338s, .375s, .404s, .458s and even one .500 Nitro for the new .416s. Brown bears in these areas can reach 1,500 pounds in body weight, and while they might hide in thick willow and alder patches, they are just as commonly seen on beaches and open grassy flats. The .416s offered both the trajectory of the wonderful .375 H&H yet with a bit more horsepower.

I sent my Winchester action off to Dick Nickel (Ridgetop Sporting Goods, PO Box 306, Eatonville WA 98328) for installation of a Douglas premium stainless .416 Remington barrel. As an experiment I also added a KDF slimline muzzle brake, which reduced recoil of the .416 to that of a .30-06.
Reliability should not be compromised in a rifle for dangerous game. Having heard from numerous sources that the original cast steel Winchester extractor was prone to breaking, I installed Jim Wisner's (P.M. Enterprises, 146 Curtis Hill Rd., Chehalis WA 98532) extra rugged Model 70 extractor. Jim also makes a stronger magazine spring that makes for more positive and reliable feeding, which was also installed.

I still cannot imagine why anyone would want to utilize a wooden stock on a serious using rifle. One look at the world's current assault rifles, target and benchrest rifles leaves little doubt to the practical superiority of synthetic stocks. I have recognized their benefits since acquiring a Stevens .22/410 over and under with a Tennite stock in the 1950s. A decade with Remington Nylon 66s and Uncle Sam's M-16s did nothing to dissuade my opinion. The early Brown precision fiberglass stock that I modified to fit my .458 has been the most rugged and stable stock I have ever used.

I have always been a firm believer in the axiom "beauty is as beauty does," but early glass stocks (and to be honest many modern ones as well) suffered from a terminal case of ugliness. One glowing exception is the Pacific Research Rimrock stock. It is a clean, sophisticated design that compares favorably with the very best custom stocks and comes fully inletted and finished with sharp, attractive moulded checkering. It is lightweight, stable and strong with ropes of fiberglass imbedded in high stress areas. It comes with a standard matte black finish but can also be ordered with your choice of patterned material under the top gel coat layer. I ordered one in a fall foliage camouflage pattern for the .416. The sighting system on my old .458 utilizes a Redfield dovetail type scope mount with a Pilkington lever for fast, easy removal of the little Leupold 21/2x compact scope. The system has worked well over the years, and I have removed and installed it hundreds of times; however, the solid dovetail mounts and bases are beginning to show signs of wear. It does not have wear adjustments like the similar but expensive European mounts. The scope does not return to point of impact as reliably as it once did.

Leupold now makes a detachable set of rings and bases they call QR (quick release), which was ordered for the .416 and was found to be excellent. The stout cylindrical stud projecting below the rings drops easily into the receptacle in the bases. Levers are mounted on the base and simply and securely lock the rings down with only a half turn. On a trip to Africa where the .416 would be used, two previously sighted-in scopes (a Leupold 1.5-5x Vari-X III and a Nikon 2-7x) were transported in my carryon luggage. Both were sighted in prior to leaving, and upon arrival in Zimbabwe both were spot on. I am not fully convinced a dangerous game rifle has to have a fast detachable scope, but the ruggedness and repeatability of the Leupold QR system does offer a definite advantage for the world traveler.

One of the hoped for benefits of the .416 was its versatility by virtue of a relatively flat trajectory. Once the rifle was assembled, I set out to work up a single load, being a firm believer in using a rifle for its intended purpose and using one load for everything. My choice of bullets for the .45-70, .458 and .505 is pretty much limited to roundnose projectiles. With the .416 there were numerous excellent choices.

The selection of bullets today is a far cry from even 10 years ago. Besides the standard production bullets, we have a plethora of premium "carriage trade" bullets. I have used, or seen used, virtually all of them, and most are truly outstanding. For heavy, large game I am a fan of the Barnes X-Bullet. I hear complaints occasionally about them fouling rifle bores, but on a hunting rifle that is a minor complaint, especially in light of their performance. I obtained a batch of the new XLC-coated, 325-grain .416 bullets, and 83 grains of Reloder 15 pushed them along at 2,600 fps in my rifle. Three-shot, 100-yard groups clustered around an inch, and the bore showed no sign of copper fouling.

I finished the rifle just before the spring brown bear season, and after feeding more than 100 rounds through the action to check for function, I decided to take it on the hunt. I was guiding a bow hunter who was hoping for an honest 10-foot boar. We passed up a few smaller ones and couldn't get within range on one monster, so by day 10 he decided to use his rifle. Since he had not planned on using it, he had given no thought to his ammunition. When we opened the case to his .300 Winchester Magnum, we found the only ammunition was 150-grain Nosler Ballistic Tips - a great bullet for long-range shooting of whitetail deer but definitely a poor choice for shooting a 1,000-pound bear at 50 yards, which is exactly what happened the following day.

We were stalking a large boar meandering through chest-high willows. Realizing we could get no closer due to noise, the hunter put his bow aside and unslung the rifle. When the bear stood up to scratch its back on a tree, the hunter fired, and the bear immediately dropped to all fours and took off uphill for thicker brush. All I could see was a rippling wake through the willows as it ran, and I had no idea where or how hard it was hit. There was a small patch of open tundra between the willows and the heavy alders; when the bear reached it, I placed one 325-grain X-Bullet on the point of its shoulder. The boar's front end collapsed, and he slid to a stop at the edge of the alders. The bullet had broken both shoulders and was perfectly mushroomed in the outside leg. Later we discovered the hunter had placed his bullet well centered in the chest, but penetration was only 6 inches.

A month later I accompanied my friend Pat Acciavatti on safari to Zimbabwe and Mozambique. He brought a .338 Winchester Magnum, and I took the new .416. As it turned out Pat liked the .416 so well we both used it for everything. Cape buffalo, kudu, sable, crocodile, leopard, no matter what the game or the range, a single, well-placed X-Bullet was all that was required. The .416 had the energy required to pile up a Cape buffalo at 50 feet, the accuracy to brain shoot a crocodile at 150 yards and the trajectory to hit impala at 250 yards. Pat even used it to snipe a few baboons at over 300 yards for use as leopard bait. In all, 33 animals fell to the .416 in 16 days. Doug Kok, our PH, was impressed with both the rifle and the bullets. In talking to other PHs and local hunters, I discovered the .416 Remington Magnum and Barnes X-Bullets had sterling reputations in Zimbabwe and Mozambique.

The rifle has a few quirks I did not anticipate though. I discovered stainless steel actions do not operate as slick as carbon steel actions. Any moving parts that rub must receive lubrication or else galling can occur. Also the recoil reducing "sissy slots" cause severe and painful muzzle blast.

Any way you look at it, however, the .416 Remington Magnum, the Barnes X-Bullets, the stainless steel Model 70 action, the new Rimrock stock and the Leupold QR scope mounts all offer some benefits over rifles I have used in the past. The .416 combines the versatility and trajectory of the .375 H&H with the energy levels of the .458 Winchester Magnum. It is one great rifle.


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I would not hesitate to choose the 416Rem!

Mine is built on the M70 and is fairly light and quick handling following advice from Phil Shoemaker to sort of duplicate his personal light rifle. I think he built three; one for his guide, one for his daughter and one for himself. The 416Rem is a great cartridge from distance shots on medium sized game all the way up to effective stopping power on things that can hurt you. It's not a pure stopping cartridge like a 458, but it is more flexible. I'm of the opinion it covers the same ground as the 375HH while adding more power on the upper end.

As for accuracy, I�m loading Rem brass w/ 350TSXs and RL-15 to a decent velocity and am able to shoot groups just under an inch square at 100yards with iron sights. With scope, it�ll shoot small groups out as far as I need to send a bullet. A well balanced 416 in a good handling stock results in an outstanding rifle with very manageable recoil, even when in a fairly light package.

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For those interested in the .458, my standard load (same as Phil) was the 400gn X bullet which is discontinued. though I have a few loaded, so I then moved down to the 350 TSX which easily exceeds 2500fps in a 22 inch barrel and some here claim up to 2700fps in the CZ's with longer barrels. This bullet will do all that is asked of it for heavier game in the US and plains game up to the cats and compares very well to the .375 and .416 for the same work.

From there, I found that the .458 case mates beautifully with the 550gn Woodleigh Weldcore which is the hammer of hammers in this 416 Vs .458 comparison.

I also know, use, and realize, that the 450gn TSX is a wonderful all round choice for the .458 case and I have no trouble reaching around 2300fps in my model 70 but I sure like that 550gn Woodleigh with a bucket of lead up front. They shoot 1 inch with open sights at 50 yards perfectly sighted which is pleasing to say the least.

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If the rifle was for just very big game shooting I would pick the 416 Remington. But if the rifle was also to be a play around gun and shoot everything from paper, trees, tins of water and from rabbits up then I would pick the 458, in fact I would pick any 45 over a similar case capacity 416.

For those who might doubt the versatility of the 45s, many years ago my only two calibers were a Mark V 460 and M70 in 458. They shots lots of animals but nothing bigger than kangaroos, goats, pigs and emus. Even used them spotlight shooting roos. Of course there was a variety of loads and it would be much harder had it been a 416 Rem and 416 Wby...bullet availability

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My favorite big bore is the 416 Rem. and the 404 Jefferys and its the most practical. I guess I had better add the .416 Ruger to that scenario as its also a dandy 40 caliber, and the big 40s will kill anything on this planet with aplomb as O'Connor used to say..but so will the .458 Win with a proper hand load. Is the 458 a better stopper, I doubt it but it's certainly just as good.

As to accuracy I would say that would depend on the individual rifle more than anything else..

I have not been a fan of the .458 as I always felt it was poorly designed and should have had a 3" case, but I have a lot of very well informed buddies with a world of experience that swear by it, so I'm not really anal about my disaprovel, but it is fun to stir the masses from time to time on the subject..I have been looking for a good deal on a .458 but will probably build one this summer. That will have a couple of the local scribes rolling in the dirt with glee! smile smile mutter and slobbering "I told you so's..:) smile smile

Either way you will do fine in the African bush.

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Ray, I would be interested in your opinion of the 416Ruger compared to the 416Rem as a cartridge, as well as your opinion of the factory Ruger rifle in 416Ruger compared to the M70 in 416Rem, as well as a 416Ruger built on an M70 compared to the M70 416Rem.

Thanks:)


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Originally Posted by mtech
Which one hits hardest and is more accurate? Which would you choose?


I have owned 458 win's and ppresently own a 458 Wats,Lott,Win and a 505 Gibs, but I love the 416's. I chose the Rigby and could not be more pleased. Nothing in North America needs more than a 416 to knock it on its arse. Heavier bullets i larger calibers hit harder, but nothing stands up after a properly placed 416. The 416's are a wonderfull balance of power and shootability.



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