24hourcampfire.com
24hourcampfire.com
Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Hop To
Page 1 of 2 1 2
Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 22,734
B
Campfire Ranger
OP Offline
Campfire Ranger
B
Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 22,734
This question concerns the inherent accuracy between bolt actions and single shots. It would seem that single shots have the edge based on the simplicity of their design. Their are no actions to true, bolts to tweak, magazines to fret about OAL's and the like. Yet, we all might agree that reality doesn't support this. Both action designs seem to have their own demons to deal with. But, due to the simplicity of the single shot, is it easier to fine tune them based on the limited number of issues to resolve? Bolt actions on the other hand, have more "moving parts" and therefore more problems to deal with.
What are your thoughts?

Last edited by bigwhoop; 07/10/10.

My home is the "sanctuary residence" for my firearms.
BP-B2

Joined: Feb 2010
Posts: 195
Campfire Member
Offline
Campfire Member
Joined: Feb 2010
Posts: 195
In theory, would the one piece stock design ( bolt gun ) provide a superior platform?


caint make cake outta [bleep]
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 20,730
B
Campfire Ranger
Offline
Campfire Ranger
B
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 20,730
Most single shots shooters seem to frequently have extras stuck on the stock. There are more convenient places to carry backups if needed.

As far as inherent accuracy, I don't know. However, I have often thought I would like a single shot groundhog rifle.


laissez les bons temps rouler
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 59,901
M
Campfire Kahuna
Online Content
Campfire Kahuna
M
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 59,901
"Inherent accuracy" would have to go to the bolt action, but that doesn't mean single-shots can't be extremely accurate.

I own several single-shots that will shoot right alongside good factory bolt rifles, including several Ruger No. 1's and a Merkel K-1 break-action rifle in .308. My Ruger No. 1B in .22 Hornet is as accurate as any Hornet I've ever seen, and my lightweight .25-06 No. 1 (a Lipsey's special with slim 24" barrel) put 5 shots into an inch, not just 3 shots, with its favorite load two days ago when I was sighting it in.

I also once owned a Browning Low Wall .243 that would put TEN shots inside an inch. It was so accurate I shot the barrel out on prairie dogs. It was deadly out to 450-500 yards.

Single-shot black powder cartridge rifles are also very accurate. I also once owned a Ballard Rifles .45-70 High Wall that would put 5 shots into an inch or so at 100 yards, using a tang aperture sight.

But really, really accurate rifles, those that will basically put all their shots into the same hole at 100 yards, are almost invariably bolt actions. The bolt action is not only stiffer all the way through, thanks both to the action being pretty much in-line with the barrel and the one-piece stock, that the potential for super-fine accuracy is greater, even in factory rifles. These days it's not unusual for factory big game rifles to group into 1/2" or so with the right handloads, sometimes right out of the box, and the accuracy of a custom rifle can be MUCH better than that.



“Montana seems to me to be what a small boy would think Texas is like from hearing Texans.”
John Steinbeck
Joined: May 2009
Posts: 18,508
Campfire Ranger
Offline
Campfire Ranger
Joined: May 2009
Posts: 18,508
I would have thought the falling block action on a Winchester 1885 or Browning B78 would have been as rigid a platform as there is.

Although it's hard to argue with the fact that single shot bolt guns make up the field at long range comeptitions.

I do believe that the falling block design may have an advantage over the bolt design in factory manufactured rifles. Just a guess though.

JM

IC B2

Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 163
Campfire Member
Offline
Campfire Member
Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 163




Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 6,954
A
Campfire Tracker
Offline
Campfire Tracker
A
Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 6,954
What Mule Deer said...bolt guns are normally more accurate than single shots and yes there are exceptions. All bench rests matches are won with bolt action, and some are bolt action single shots..

It would depend on what you intend to use the gun for..I am sure you will be satisfied with either if you have the bucks to build the right kind.

Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 23,564
Campfire Ranger
Offline
Campfire Ranger
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 23,564
A bolt can also be a single shot.........

MM

Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 20,787
R
Campfire Ranger
Offline
Campfire Ranger
R
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 20,787
Originally Posted by bigwhoop
But, due to the simplicity of the single shot, is it easier to fine tune them based on the limited number of issues to resolve?


Yes! As long as it is a single shot bolt action. grin

Seriously, I have had my single shots give me worse fits than any bolt gun I've ever owned. And, ain't none of my s.s.'s cheap.


Throttle fixes everything. If it doesn't fix the problem, it’ll end the suspense.
Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 4,773
G
Campfire Tracker
Offline
Campfire Tracker
G
Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 4,773
Bolts get the nod for accuracy, IMO.

I like single shot rifles, though. I have a single shot bolt 25-20 that's accurate, for a 25-20. Generally speaking, and I do mean general, non-bolt singles have given me less accuracy than similar-priced bolt repeaters.

The worst, and the best, single shot No 1s were a 25-06 a 3/4" inch 5-shot gun, and a No 1 in .243, about a 3" rifle at its best.

I no longer have any centerfire single shots except for a Encore in .223, which is very accurate but with an afermarket barrel. Two .22 rimfire rifles, Martinis, are quite accurate, holding their own with a Volquartzen 10-22. Almost.


Not many problems you can't fix
With a 1911 and a 30-06

IC B3

Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 140
Campfire Member
Offline
Campfire Member
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 140
Normally, the forearm is the fly in the ointment for single shots. Varying pressure on the forearm can make for some really bad groups, so most people will try to rest their gun as close to the action as possible and hope for the best.

I try for a single contact point with the wood far enough from the barrel to pass a Dallas telephone book between the wood and barrel.

I never shoot 5 shot groups, since there isn't a critter in these parts that will allow that many shots with a single shot.

Last edited by Paul5388; 07/10/10.
Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 16,505
Campfire Ranger
Offline
Campfire Ranger
Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 16,505
As JB said, no hard fast rules unless you are shooting competition.

I have had #1s shoot sub moa out the box.

1885 Low Wall 243 all day 5/8-3/4" at 100. Shot first 2 inside a half inch at 200 yds in a 3 shot group......

#1 243s, groups 3/8" out the box first 3shot group, a 1A, another RSI mannlicher shot around 3/4-7/8" out the box. 1B 25-06 7/8" factory WW 120 OPE. 1B 270, not so lucky, 1-1.5 moa after bedding stock, but I digress, it was a pre-Ruger mfg. bbl, and outsourced bbls back then were hit/miss.

The 1A above, got a 6BR custom via Pac-Nor, one calm cool morning I shot 3 shots at 330 yds, yep, and the group was UNDER 1/2"......at 330 yds. Inherent? Certainly the action had the potential to allow a good barrel in a good chambering consistently spit those bullets out TIGHT.

Single shots can be fickle, but I have been pleased w/hunting accuracy out the box. My current, a K1A 6.5x55 put 3 into 1.1" at 200 yds. It's a routine sub moa......but Paul said, I never shoot a group into an animal. One good hit, on the first try is my goal, and usually what happens when I do my part.

BTW, those Singles, groups aside, will in MY experience as many other guns, put their first shot from a cold bbl where I want it to go, time and again. Bedding affects groups no doubt as every rifle is independent. But first shot cold bbl accuracy is my #1 concern in sighting in, and when it counts, for big game. I enjoy paper, but my primary end point is taking game with single shots.

FWIW, my longest kill on deer was with that 6BR, right at a pre-lasered (furthest edge of the field I hunted where the deer was by the fence adjoining a refuge), 400 yds. Accuracy was never a question as that gun was proven accurate, consistently and I knew where to hold. My oldest boy shot his first and longest w/that Low Wall above, broke a deer's back at around 300 long paces.

Single shots are fun......even when hunting w/bolt repeaters wink

Make all your first hits a good one whatever you use! Esp. on big game. If not, accuracy in groups will often be moot.

Big Whoop, if you have yet to try one, decide what model and caliber you want and TRY one. You might be happy you did.

Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 59,901
M
Campfire Kahuna
Online Content
Campfire Kahuna
M
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 59,901
On the other hand, my 1B .22 Hornet will keep plunking them in there long after it gets so hot that you can't put your hand on the barrel. And its bedding has never been touched since it came out of the factory.

In general I have found that No. 1's (or any single shot with a 2-piece stock) will maintain point of impact even with a warm barrel if the forend is bedded so it doesn't make firm contact with the front of the action. If a No. 1 does this, I work on the rear of the forend until a piece of paper can be slipped between the rear edges of the forend and the front of the action. Many people get so fixated on the front end of the forend (whether free-floated or firmly bedded in some way) that they forget the rear end is also a factor.


“Montana seems to me to be what a small boy would think Texas is like from hearing Texans.”
John Steinbeck
Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 17,491
Campfire Ranger
Offline
Campfire Ranger
Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 17,491
Originally Posted by bigwhoop
This question concerns the inherent accuracy between bolt actions and single shots. It would seem that single shots have the edge based on the simplicity of their design. Their are no actions to true, bolts to tweak, magazines to fret about OAL's and the like. Yet, we all might agree that reality doesn't support this. Both action designs seem to have their own demons to deal with. But, due to the simplicity of the single shot, is it easier to fine tune them based on the limited number of issues to resolve? Bolt actions on the other hand, have more "moving parts" and therefore more problems to deal with.
What are your thoughts?


This is not necessarily a correct assumption. If you've ever taken a Ruger #1 apart, you'll realize that, while the design is very reliable, there is nothing "simple" about it. There are a goodly number of parts which fit and move in sequence in order to load, fire, and unload cases. By comparison, many bolt guns seem quite simple. Then there is the greater complexity of making a two piece stock work as simply as a single piece...

Last edited by Klikitarik; 07/11/10. Reason: added /

Sometimes, the air you 'let in'matters less than the air you 'let out'.
Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 22,734
B
Campfire Ranger
OP Offline
Campfire Ranger
B
Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 22,734
Good thoughts on this topic so far. Thanks


My home is the "sanctuary residence" for my firearms.
Joined: Jun 2004
Posts: 7,125
G
Campfire Tracker
Offline
Campfire Tracker
G
Joined: Jun 2004
Posts: 7,125
While I believe it would be possible to make a falling block action which could shoot with the bolt actions, I also think it would be difficult to do. Understand, I am speaking of BR level accuracy. There is little question that falling blocks can shoot well enough that there is little difference in the hunting fields.
The successful single shot would probably have an inline striker. If a two-piece stock design was retained, the fore arm would be attached to a rigid hanger and the buttstock well fitted and attached. Scope mounting would be on a cantelevered extension integral with the receiver. The requirements vis a vis squareness of the breechface etc. would be just as strigent as with a precision bolt action.
The bolt action is the easy way to achieve precision at this time.
As I said before, the falling block is certainly capable of excellent field accuracy. I have owned and built No. 1's which were true 1/2 moa rifles and I really like them but I don't see a falling block target rifle in my future. GD

Joined: Jul 2004
Posts: 5,932
M
Campfire Tracker
Offline
Campfire Tracker
M
Joined: Jul 2004
Posts: 5,932
65BR-My K1A in 6.5x55 is also very accurate, especially with Hornady factory custom ammo. It will always group 3 in 1/2 from a cold barrel. I have not been able to equal that with my reloads, so I shoot Hornady factory.

My #1 in 300 H&H is also very accurate. This Past saturday I shot three shot groups under 1" with Nosler brass, RL22 and Hornady 180BTSP.


Beware of thieves, scammers and dishonest members on the "Fire" classifieds. Ya there is a thief here too. Whatever!!

They're all around the CampFire and everywhere.
Joined: May 2005
Posts: 1,880
S
Campfire Regular
Offline
Campfire Regular
S
Joined: May 2005
Posts: 1,880
Experience Here:

Pretty much what Greydog says!

The ammo will also have to be tuned correctly via reloading for that rifle and action. And some single shot actions/rifles do amazingly well with select (lots) factory ammo these days.

Think harmonics and best fit ammo for a particular breech and action.

Expectations for the tune:

1 moa almost always possible.

.500 achievable, and consistent, depending on tune, action,
ammo selection/or reloading.

.300 and .200 will happen, but not consistently possible even from bench.

Single shots will hunt, and you might occasionally win/place in a match outdoors w/wind. Think best of the best e.g.: action harmonics, shooter, wind-doping.

Just my 2 cents worth, and remember single shots are always going to be slower under duress than a bolt action repeater when something can claw, bite, grind you to dust, or tear you apart, frown !

Joined: May 2005
Posts: 1,880
S
Campfire Regular
Offline
Campfire Regular
S
Joined: May 2005
Posts: 1,880
1885 Low Wall 243 all day 5/8-3/4" at 100. Shot first 2 inside a half inch at 200 yds in a 3 shot group......


Just caught your line above. Best friend, has one in .243 Win. that left me with mouth hanging open when shot right out of the box. This w/several different factory loads, and bullet weights.

Someone sure did a good job putting it together before it left the factory, grin! He wondered if he should work up reloads for it.

My answer, "What for!".

Last edited by slopshot; 07/12/10.
Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 6,954
A
Campfire Tracker
Offline
Campfire Tracker
A
Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 6,954
The word "inherent", is the clue to this post..therefore the winner is the one piece stock bolt action.

But the most critical factor, by far, in rifle accuracy is the barrel. Next would be the wood to metal fit, and of course the chamber would also be a factor. You can build a super accurate single shot, no doubt about that.

I have, over the years, had more trouble making a single shot shoot little tiny groups than I have had with bolt guns, but I have built and owned a lot of really accurate single shots.

I have owned Ruger no. 1's that shot super and some than wouldn't shoot for beans..A new Lothar Walthar barrel always solved the problem of accuracy with the Rugers, at least so far..I also use a aluminum V that is part of the echon to the forend that Jack Belk modifys.

I also believe a heavy bull barrel works best if one wants a super accurate SS. I suspect the heavy barrel is less subjective to inletting problems and operates mostly on its own.

Page 1 of 2 1 2

Moderated by  RickBin 

Link Copied to Clipboard
YB23

Who's Online Now
676 members (219DW, 10gaugemag, 1beaver_shooter, 17CalFan, 12344mag, 79 invisible), 2,901 guests, and 1,435 robots.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Forum Statistics
Forums81
Topics1,187,670
Posts18,399,478
Members73,817
Most Online11,491
Jul 7th, 2023


 







Fish & Game Departments | Solunar Tables | Mission Statement | Privacy Policy | Contact Us | DMCA
Hunting | Fishing | Camping | Backpacking | Reloading | Campfire Forums | Gear Shop
Copyright © 2000-2024 24hourcampfire.com, Inc. All Rights Reserved.
Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.7.5
(Release build 20201027)
Responsive Width:

PHP: 7.3.33 Page Time: 0.092s Queries: 15 (0.004s) Memory: 0.9035 MB (Peak: 1.0625 MB) Data Comp: Zlib Server Time: 2024-03-28 20:37:14 UTC
Valid HTML 5 and Valid CSS