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Do the pins Remington puts in their stock really serve the purpose to decrease splitting? Got a 416 Ruger build in the works and am contemplating using a factory CDL mag stock. ![[Linked Image]](http://i266.photobucket.com/albums/ii246/drgebhardt/CDL-LA-Mag.jpg)
I never thought I'd grow up to be a grumpy old man, but I did, and I'm killin' it.
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Campfire Kahuna
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No, crosspins in general are there just to keep the chunks of wood from falling out after they split. The pins have almost no mechanical strength in their attachment to the wood as far as stopping movement.
And if they did they would simply split the wood themselves...
Properly installed crossbolts do spread the recoil force around, but they do nothing more than a little glass bedding.
Mark Begich, Joaquin Jackson, and Heller resistance... Three huge reasons to worry about the NRA.
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things are probably different now, but I cut up a 1980's era BDL stock (after restocking it in laminate) and there was nothing under those black plastic plugs. no pin, no nothing. if you want crossbolts, get actual crossbolts and bed them in. ![[Linked Image]](http://spinstage.http.internapcdn.net/Spinstage/userdocs/products/p_874005000_1.jpg) brownells
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Campfire Kahuna
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And that particular crossbolt is less than useless...
If you are going to install a crossbolt it should have a square shoulder that engages the recoil lug...
Metal will move enough, and differently enough, from wood to make mechanical adhesion difficult. As soon as epoxy is introduced to adhere the metal properly the question instantly becomes "Why bother with the metal?"
Mark Begich, Joaquin Jackson, and Heller resistance... Three huge reasons to worry about the NRA.
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OP
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Given all of the above, I think I just stick with a thicker recoil lug and a good bedding job.
I never thought I'd grow up to be a grumpy old man, but I did, and I'm killin' it.
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Campfire Kahuna
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A wise choice.. 
Ex- USN (SS) '66-'69
Pro-Constitution.
LET'S GO BRANDON!!!
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When a big bore recoils the magazine box gaps open and in time or immediately it can split the recoil lug or the rear portion behind the magazine box..The Cross Bolts can and do prevent this and they have been effective for many years with big bore English rifles and modern custom rifles..
Today with the advent of glass bedding and cross bolts combined it is easy to build a custom big bore that will probably never split.
Any stockmaker that uses the old addage that if a gun is properly bedded it won't need pins it full of bull and salesmanship or just hasn't used his rifles much..In time any wood stock that is shot often can and will pound out a gap in the recoil lug area and eventually split the stock or the wood may shrink or swell and cause the same problem and this is because of poor drying and laying out of the wood.
I have seen some high dollar guns made by well known gunsmiths split out on safari, and I have seen some very nice stocks shear off at the pistol grip. They were pretty but not layed out properly..I personally believe marble cake can be overdone in a big bore and prefer to keep the grain running in a single direction from the tow to the forend with a bit of upward travel. Lots of streaking color is fine.
This isn't a advertisement for composite or laminated wood as I have seen them fail about as often for various reasons, after all anything made by man can fail.
Bottom line is I would not own a big bore beginning with the 458 Win without crossbolts and I also would prefer some glass in certain areas or fully bedded is fine as long as it doesn't show.
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+1
With the stock inletted for the mag box and trigger, you only have a small amount of webbing remaining that runs between the mag box and trigger inlets. Other than this thin webbing of wood, you have nothing to connect the sides of the stock between the recoil mortise and rear tang. It does not matter how solid you bed the recoil lug at the lug mortise, the area between this point to the rear tang is the cause of weakness. With the rifle planted into your shoulder, each time you fire a round, the forces of recoil push rearward at the lug mortise while your shoulder is attempting to stop this rearward motion. As a result, recoil forces attempt to push the sides of the stock outward between the action screws. Without adding any reinforcement such as cross bolts (screws), the thin webbing between the mag box and trigger inlets will split followed by additional damage if you continue shooting rounds.
Anything above the recoil level of a 30-06 would be wise to include reinforcement. When you get up into 375H&H level, it will most definitely split at some point without added reinforcement. If it is a safe queen, it doesn't matter, but if you intend to shoot the rifle for years to come, it will eventually split without. If you use a led sled, it will split sooner than later.
Best:)
Last edited by GaryVA; 09/02/10.
�I've never met a genius. A genius to me is someone who does well at something he hates. Anybody can do well at something he loves -- it's just a question of finding the subject.�
- Clint Eastwood
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Campfire Kahuna
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When a big bore recoils the magazine box gaps open and in time or immediately it can split the recoil lug or the rear portion behind the magazine box..The Cross Bolts can and do prevent this and they have been effective for many years with big bore English rifles and modern custom rifles..
Today with the advent of glass bedding and cross bolts combined it is easy to build a custom big bore that will probably never split.
Any stockmaker that uses the old addage that if a gun is properly bedded it won't need pins it full of bull and salesmanship or just hasn't used his rifles much..In time any wood stock that is shot often can and will pound out a gap in the recoil lug area and eventually split the stock or the wood may shrink or swell and cause the same problem and this is because of poor drying and laying out of the wood.
I have seen some high dollar guns made by well known gunsmiths split out on safari, and I have seen some very nice stocks shear off at the pistol grip. They were pretty but not layed out properly..I personally believe marble cake can be overdone in a big bore and prefer to keep the grain running in a single direction from the tow to the forend with a bit of upward travel. Lots of streaking color is fine.
This isn't a advertisement for composite or laminated wood as I have seen them fail about as often for various reasons, after all anything made by man can fail.
Bottom line is I would not own a big bore beginning with the 458 Win without crossbolts and I also would prefer some glass in certain areas or fully bedded is fine as long as it doesn't show. Ray As per usual, you are clueless... Crossbolts were better when they were only compared to wood. Today they are not as good as quality, fibered epoxy, period. art
Mark Begich, Joaquin Jackson, and Heller resistance... Three huge reasons to worry about the NRA.
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Campfire Kahuna
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Campfire Kahuna
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+1
Anything above the recoil level of a 30-06 would be wise to include reinforcement. When you get up into 375H&H level, it will most definitely split at some point without added reinforcement.
Best:) I agree with this part of your statement... But glass trumps metal pins for keeping the sides together. The brass pins Remington throws through the web area is to keep the parts from falling out, because it certainly does nothing to prevent spreading...
Mark Begich, Joaquin Jackson, and Heller resistance... Three huge reasons to worry about the NRA.
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OP
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Since I started this . . .
What about using adding a second recoil lug to the barrel or perhaps using a stock with an aluminum bedding block? Would either negate the need for cross-bolts?
I never thought I'd grow up to be a grumpy old man, but I did, and I'm killin' it.
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Not intending to highjack, and I hope this fits... I have a wooden stock that appears to have already split the recoil lug front to rear (300 WW). I intended to use something like the pictured Brownell's crossbolt to repair it...or as I have used in the past, small SS bolts with small washers and nuts, set into an "I" shaped mortise cut across the recoil lug. I glassed it in place when I bedded the action (338 WW)and it appears to have held so far. Are we saying these may not hold? If fibered epoxy alone is the answer, how would you recommend prepping the stock, and where would it be applied? Hoping to learn best approach. Thanks.
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+1
Anything above the recoil level of a 30-06 would be wise to include reinforcement. When you get up into 375H&H level, it will most definitely split at some point without added reinforcement.
Best:) I agree with this part of your statement... But glass trumps metal pins for keeping the sides together. The brass pins Remington throws through the web area is to keep the parts from falling out, because it certainly does nothing to prevent spreading... I do not believe it wise to simply remove the thin strip of wood webbing between the sides and then just simply replace this internal wood with bedding epoxy. The epoxy itself is indeed stronger than the wood substrate you removed, but the failure will then be the points of adhesion between the wood sides and the epoxy itself. The best alternative is to make a mechanical lock between both sides which completely removes the wood substrate from the equation. If you suggest to only use the epoxy, then it must run completely through to the outer sidewalls to eliminate the weak link. This is the reason and purpose behind the mechanics of a crossbolt to mechanically lock the sides together completely taking the wood substrate out of the equation. This is why an epoxied pin that is mechanically threaded through a section of wood makes for a repair that is not only stronger than the wood itself, but is also stronger than the pin alone. The larger traditional crossbolt with threaded caps is even stronger making for a complete mechanical lock of the sides. Best:)
Last edited by GaryVA; 09/04/10.
�I've never met a genius. A genius to me is someone who does well at something he hates. Anybody can do well at something he loves -- it's just a question of finding the subject.�
- Clint Eastwood
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Campfire Kahuna
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I disagree and have much to add, but not enough time... More later.
As a start, a poster here came up with what I consider a truly clever idea... He uses a few lengths of Kevlar fishing line bedded in epoxy for a crossbolt inside the stock. Stockmaker would be the guy with the idea.
art
Mark Begich, Joaquin Jackson, and Heller resistance... Three huge reasons to worry about the NRA.
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Dunlaf spoke of adding a piece of steel across the recoil lug
inlet and tied into the stock.
Good luck!
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I've used 2/32" to 3/32" brass pins to fix split stocks on two Mauser rifles, a 98 Turk and a 93 Spanish. Hundreds of rounds later through each rifle, they're still fixed.
The key #1: first fix what caused the split. In both of my cases, it was the action's recoil lug not contacting the stock's recoil shelf. When either rifle went "BANG" the stocks stayed still, and the barreled actions went backwards--and split the stocks.
The key #2: make the hole through the stock slightly larger than the pin. Let epoxy fill the gap. If the pin is tight, you've added stress to the stock.
With careful measuring you can drill the hole in the stock not quite all the way through. That leaves only one hole to hide.
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In the case of a split right behind the recoil lug not near the sides, I'll Dremel a trench for a reinforcement and embed in epoxy. No change in external appearance. Carbon arrow shaft is the latest fad in hidden reinforcement for me.
Usually it happens to old stocks (no bedding compound) so I've put it down to poor contact between the stock and the recoil lug due to changes in the wood.
The key elements in human thinking are not numbers but labels of fuzzy sets. -- L. Zadeh
Which explains a lot.
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Campfire Kahuna
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+1
Anything above the recoil level of a 30-06 would be wise to include reinforcement. When you get up into 375H&H level, it will most definitely split at some point without added reinforcement.
Best:) I agree with this part of your statement... But glass trumps metal pins for keeping the sides together. The brass pins Remington throws through the web area is to keep the parts from falling out, because it certainly does nothing to prevent spreading... I do not believe it wise to simply remove the thin strip of wood webbing between the sides and then just simply replace this internal wood with bedding epoxy. The epoxy itself is indeed stronger than the wood substrate you removed, but the failure will then be the points of adhesion between the wood sides and the epoxy itself. The best alternative is to make a mechanical lock between both sides which completely removes the wood substrate from the equation. If you suggest to only use the epoxy, then it must run completely through to the outer sidewalls to eliminate the weak link. This is the reason and purpose behind the mechanics of a crossbolt to mechanically lock the sides together completely taking the wood substrate out of the equation. This is why an epoxied pin that is mechanically threaded through a section of wood makes for a repair that is not only stronger than the wood itself, but is also stronger than the pin alone. The larger traditional crossbolt with threaded caps is even stronger making for a complete mechanical lock of the sides. Best:) I have no idea why you would have a problem removing the wood chips between the action sides and replacing them with something stronger, tougher, more stable, and less likely to come off the wood at each end??? The failure points will NOT be the adhesion of glass to wood, but in the wood... And good stock wood is plenty strong enuogh for the job. Going all the way to the outside does not improve looks especially and is not needed for strength. A little reinforced glass packed in there with Stocker's kevlar fishing line thoroughly wetted totally trumps any crosspin. Adding a metal cross bolt like the one pictured will not be as effective. As the wood changes dimensions at a different rate than the metal it will eventually work a small hollow behind the cross bolt heads... unless of course you glassbed them! So let's use some more of the stuff you are afraid of to proactively cure potential problems!  As I believe I said earlier in this thread, crossbolts must have a square shoulder that exactly mates with the recoil lug if one is going to improve things. And that improvement will only be seen on stocks which have not been glass bedded. art
Mark Begich, Joaquin Jackson, and Heller resistance... Three huge reasons to worry about the NRA.
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Oh and I have seen many 375 and over rifle stocks without crossbolts which never split...
Mark Begich, Joaquin Jackson, and Heller resistance... Three huge reasons to worry about the NRA.
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Okay, you're completely talking in circles at this point. I had thought you were being serious.
Later:)
�I've never met a genius. A genius to me is someone who does well at something he hates. Anybody can do well at something he loves -- it's just a question of finding the subject.�
- Clint Eastwood
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