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Joined: Apr 2010
Posts: 14,686
Campfire Outfitter
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Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Apr 2010
Posts: 14,686 |
Seems as if some of you guys are a little too young to know about FMJ Match Bullets! I cut my teeth on shooting these and when I got with the USAAMU aka US Army Advanced Marksmanship Unit at Ft. Benning this was all we shot through National Match M1s and they were highly accurate! Shooting from machine rest when testing, some of the Frankfort Arsenal Lots of ammo would hold 4" groups through our rifles from 600 yards! This same ammo was used quite extensively in VN and one of my buddies made quite good use of it while there! His name?? Carlos Hathcock! http://riflemansjournal.blogspot.com/2010/07/full-metal-jacket-match-bullet.html Yeah whatever... you think we are all 18? I have a box of M118 with 173s sittting right here beside my computer... year date of my birth is why it sits here.... But if you think the FMJ of yesteryear holds a candle to current HP bullets... you are not paying attention.. why else do you think that there are very FEW old records anymore... the rifles and ammo continue to get better. 4 inches is a ho hum group at 600 from a cradle. Now OTOH Carlos was a master woodsman, and a great shooter, just think what he could have done these days with current weapons and ammo. I have spoken with Carlos a few times, I have spoken with his son many times since we all shoot service rifle. Fine family. Carlos Jr would be the first to telll you things have come a long way! The AMU Ft Benning stays on the cutting edge.... I left more than a bit of my long range 223 ammo there for them to test.... results were a load that shot the ONLY 200 at 1000 with a service rifle ever in competition. Guess I know a hair about things too. rost495 "you think we are all 18?" What you need to do is 'brush up' on your reading comprehension! I used the word 'some'....which DOES NOT mean all but as for your comprehension...yes...I'd say you'd be about 15 to 18! And you can bet your sweet arse that the M70 that Carlos was using was way better than any 2 MOA capability!! And as for 4" ten shot groups from 600 yards being 'ho-hum' groups.....during the day....well....you weren't alive to no the difference!! I've said all I'm going to say on this subject because anyone that says a .6 MOA group is 'ho-hum' is somewhat mentally challenged!!
Even birds know not to land downwind!
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Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 57,474
Campfire Kahuna
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Campfire Kahuna
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 57,474 |
Its ho hum these days. Even Germans article admits that FMJ are not cutting edge basically.. the Scenar tends to be an exception,... and the old cupro nickel jacketed slugs shot a bit better than average but fouled worse in our guns.
FWIW 10 shot groups from my AR15 service rifle at 600 off my bench here at home( my own personal range which helps a lot) not out of a vice though.... are smaller than 4 inches... 4 inches is the cutoff for junking a load for me. Most of the groups are 2.5 to 3 inches with a lot being somewhat smaller. Smallest groups we've shot from one particular hummer barrel, were on the order of 1.5 inches and one group came in at 1.25 inches basically... I don't dick with calipers, just measure whats close. I'm not in it for exact size but to know what its doing.
Yep Carlos gun would have had to been better, but you can bet it wasn't todays typical setup.
BTW its KNOW, not NO and nope, 15 to 18 was many years back, and many classifactions back...
I will agree though that many folks out there have 4-6 inch guns at 600, and that is a handicap to them... but find out what winners are shooting accuracy wise and you'll be surprised...
TOTALLY agree with the Kenya quote though!
We can keep Larry Root and all his idiotic blabber and user names on here, but we can't get Ralph back..... Whiskey Tango Foxtrot, over....
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Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 1,887
Campfire Regular
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Campfire Regular
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 1,887 |
There is nothing wrong with the M-16/M-4 that better marksmanship training and 77gr. bullets wouldn't solve. If legal questions are an issue FMG 77gr. bullets could be made adequately accurate.
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Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 3,353
Campfire Tracker
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Campfire Tracker
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 3,353 |
Take a knee,
Good deal. Your screen name sounds grunt. This placed is packed with doers but we have had more than our share of google warriors. Wasn't trying to offend but my ears tend to perk up at times.
Went through robinson with 4 long tabs. 3 were great guys. One was a paper tiger that washed rather quickly.
When home my men are bn recon platoon (11b scouts). Deployed my boys are hazara, tajik, uzbek and pashto infantry.
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Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 2,196
Campfire Regular
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Campfire Regular
Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 2,196 |
This is not true, how do you think snipers get by with using Sierra Match Kings? The bullet can be designed for accuracy, you can use an SMK (because the hollowpoint is the most accurate bullet design), you can't use a Barnes X.
The reason big army doesn't use them is cost, combined with extreme ignorance of the importance of riflecraft. This is why SF had to come up with it's own "sharpshooter" rifle and ammo, the SPR project.
Sorry to disagree with you, but it is indeed true. The 77gr SMK had to be blessed by military lawyers and the reason they were accepted is that the bullet is not designed to expand. The hollow point is a by product of manufacture as the core is swaged in from the front to preserve the critical base, and the ogive is closed up. There was even an incident recently where a military lawyer barred usage of the Mk262 ammo, until someone higher up explained it to him. It really does not matter, because the Hague treaties are very specific to the effect that expanding bullets cannot be used if the two combating nations are signatories of the treaty. If one side is not, or another nation joins in the fight and is not a signatory to the treaty, then it's legal to ignore the treaty. The Taliban is not a signatory nation to the Treaty, I don't think North Vietnam was either. Regardless, the US military chooses to abide by the treaties regardless of who we are fighting. I guess from a logistical and training POV, it's the right thing to do, but there are so many far superior bullets. The U.S. is not a signature of the Hague Accord Sigh. http://www.thegunzone.com/hague.html
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Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 57,474
Campfire Kahuna
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Campfire Kahuna
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 57,474 |
We can keep Larry Root and all his idiotic blabber and user names on here, but we can't get Ralph back..... Whiskey Tango Foxtrot, over....
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Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 17,387
Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
Joined: Sep 2004
Posts: 17,387 |
“Live free or die. Death is not the worst of evils.” - General
John Stark.
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Joined: Sep 2009
Posts: 13,860
Campfire Outfitter
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Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Sep 2009
Posts: 13,860 |
Take a knee,
Good deal. Your screen name sounds grunt. This placed is packed with doers but we have had more than our share of google warriors. Wasn't trying to offend but my ears tend to perk up at times.
Went through robinson with 4 long tabs. 3 were great guys. One was a paper tiger that washed rather quickly.
When home my men are bn recon platoon (11b scouts). Deployed my boys are hazara, tajik, uzbek and pashto infantry. May God speed and protect you and your boys. Camp Robinson runs a top shelf sniper school. I was there for the Wilson Matches a few times in the 80's.
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