|
Joined: Sep 2009
Posts: 12,025
Campfire Outfitter
|
Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Sep 2009
Posts: 12,025 |
I hope everyone is beginning to see the difficulty in proving things like the merits of barrel break-in. There is always someone who will offer an opinion that is counter to whatever the discussion is and be able to fall back on a �well you can�t prove it response�
Well here I can prove that triggerguard1 not only makes totally false statements but even when confronted with the truth is more concerned with saving face than owning up to a mistake.
Why I might even begin to think he has about the same level of knowledge on barrel break in as he does about his customers.
Triggerguard1,
I have repeatedly told you that I have never bought nor have I ever used any of your trigger guards.
I have repeatedly posted here and numerous other places I left The Best of the West in June of 2006.
Now you either need to produce a purchase order from me to you, showing an order for trigger guards or admit you were making this crap up.
I hope you realize how easy it would have been to actually know what you were talking about before you opened you mouth.
John Burns
I have all the sources. They can't stop the signal.
|
|
|
|
Joined: Dec 2004
Posts: 5,978
Campfire Tracker
|
Campfire Tracker
Joined: Dec 2004
Posts: 5,978 |
Mr Burns,
I think part of the problem is a lot of folks don't know the difference between yourself and Gunwerks as completely different company, which is the outfit Davidson's started after you left "Best of the West"?
It's not an excuse for their ignorance/ confusion but at least helps explain it.
Last edited by jim62; 09/15/10.
To all gunmaker critics- "It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.."- Teddy Roosevelt
|
|
|
|
Joined: Feb 2001
Posts: 2,256
Campfire Regular
|
Campfire Regular
Joined: Feb 2001
Posts: 2,256 |
JBurns, hang it up you poor bastard. You clearly don't know much about long range shooting, ethics, who your customers are and when you've been a customer, and all that barrel break in stuff too. Triggerguard1 guy has almost 100,000 posts - so he must know what he's talking about. Wow.
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 57,474
Campfire Kahuna
|
Campfire Kahuna
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 57,474 |
some folks buy a pregnant wife... some prefer to impregnate her themselves..... well thats not a fair assesment but it does cover the big issues here...
Of course I'm still against selling a complete setup and folks thinking they can put the dial on and shoot... when its a LOT more complicated than that.
And from what I figure, most folks that are serious about this do continual research and can come up with the right stuff at a much less price.....
We can keep Larry Root and all his idiotic blabber and user names on here, but we can't get Ralph back..... Whiskey Tango Foxtrot, over....
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 2,419
Campfire Regular
|
Campfire Regular
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 2,419 |
Prior to you being an complete an utter ass about the situation, I was inclined to refrain from simply telling you what worthless POS I think you are, but I'll refrain from refraining. I'll post once again my quote, so you'll understand real clearly, just like everyone else did, what I said in regards to the making of trigger guards for Best of The West. I first heard of you because of your association with Best of the West, which is why I know you used, or at least your company used our guards and a lot of them, all in stainless. I frankly had never heard of you or Best of The West, until we started making guards for them. Your name, quite some time later, popped up on these boards associated you with Best of The West and the connection was made at that time. No one could be more sorry than I that someone would put you and I in a business relationship mistakenly. When the exact time frame was that we began making guards for BOTW, I'm not for sure, but it was somewhere in 2006. I didn't get on this thread to bash your products, but rather defend a position that a very good customer of mine and I share about barrel break in. This is also an opinion that was shared by the late Gale McMillan, which I didn't learn of until I had reached my own conclusions of the same. As more and more time goes by, more and more accomplished shooters are realizing what an utter waste of time and money barrel break-in really is and the days of snake-oil salesmanship are quickly fading. As I mentioned earlier, which you can't deny, disprove or wish away; it is a myth and from a statistical and mathematical standpoint, based on a series of ever-changing factors, it can not be proven.........That is a fact, whether it helps sell a rifle or not. No two barrels are the same, nor chambers, nor receivers, bolts, lands, grooves, or any of the above in any combination you think you have mastered to exacting tolerances, to prove with or without bore scope, that your group will shrink, barrel life will increase, or the stars will align in such a manner that DRT on any game animal is guaranteed. There are enough variables to sink a battleship in just the finishing of a barrel alone, to say nothing of the loaded cartridge and its variables to even begin to conceive a theory on a break-in merit. If the barrel is shot without break-in and it groups well through the course of several hundred shots, how do you prove that this particular barrel would have shot even better had it been broke in? Answer, you can't. Then again, you're claiming that 1MOA at 100 yards is suitable for 1000 yard elk shooting, after calibrating your rifles at the 100 yard line. With that kind of methodology, I too would be curious what the wound percentage is on your big game hunts, or your "behind the scenes" footage. I am now done for sure, as this pompous celebrity status impresses me none. My friend and a long-time poster here has a good saying that fits quite well... "You can bullsh#t the fans, but you can't bullsh#t the players"
|
|
|
|
Joined: May 2002
Posts: 3,018
Campfire Tracker
|
Campfire Tracker
Joined: May 2002
Posts: 3,018 |
To those who are trying to put a cat into this dog fight- OK, so if you aren't hunting the land in which this guy hunts, ain't buying or have bought one of his guns that has an issue, or your way of hunting, life or liberty isn't affected by this guys business then why do you give a rat's a**??? Just asking??? Personally, I envy all you guys who get to hunt such heavenly places like the midwest and western states. I envy all you guys who have rifles that make mine look like a red rider bb gun. But if you ain't screwing up my family, pissin' on my house, twisting my religion, shafting my job or hammer dickin' up my hunting land then I'm simply going to let the guy make a living how he sees best? Pursuit of happiness right??? Again, just asking... Seems like so many have a burr in their saddle but really trying to figure out how your dog got in this fight. I'm not taking any side either, just making a statement of the obvious to be honest. If the guy is or isn't a jack wagon then why not just move on to things that make you happy... Come to friggin' think about it, why the h*ll am I even worried about this??? I think I'll take my own advice and go read/post about things I like and want to learn about or share with folks.
Last edited by Dawn2Dusk; 09/15/10.
Enjoying Each Sunrise...
|
|
|
|
Joined: May 2007
Posts: 14,653
Campfire Outfitter
|
Campfire Outfitter
Joined: May 2007
Posts: 14,653 |
This whole thread is gay.
your flippant remarks which you so adeptly sling
|
|
|
|
Joined: Apr 2004
Posts: 61,130
Campfire Kahuna
|
Campfire Kahuna
Joined: Apr 2004
Posts: 61,130 |
JBurns;
I'm confused (given this thread, I don't think that's a surprise).
From what I can gather, the rifles that you're putting out are assembled by hand, correct? They use a standard Rem.700 action (no other options?), that's blue-printed, squared, and trued, corrct? No other work done to them?
Those actions are then fitted with a Jewel trigger that's properly set, correct?
A barrel of only one maker and profile, and length, is then mated to the receiver, correct?
The then-set barreled action is then hand-bedded and mated to a single stock option/design produced by only a single maker, and that maker is one of the majors, correct?
One scope option, with a set of custom BDC dials by Leupold, and a custom reticle (SFP?), correct?
And, rings/bases of one maker (y'all?), correct?
A custom reamer is used for the chamber, to give precise dimensions and thoating for the VLD load, correct?
Your load development uses one powder, one bullet, and one type of brass, and you verfiy it at 1" or less capability at 100 yards, correct?
I think that's the basics of your system, as I understand it.
Am I right, or if I'm wrong, where so?
Thanks,
|
|
|
|
Joined: May 2007
Posts: 14,653
Campfire Outfitter
|
Campfire Outfitter
Joined: May 2007
Posts: 14,653 |
Why did dude not sponsor the LR Hunting spot and avoid all this drama?
That's the obvious question.
your flippant remarks which you so adeptly sling
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 23,380
Campfire Ranger
|
Campfire Ranger
Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 23,380 |
Guys.. You need to come to grips that GreyBull Precision is a money making operation. Sure he makes money off his rifles.. Who here doesn't make money? Are you guys expecting him to run a non-profit company?
|
|
|
|
Joined: Feb 2001
Posts: 8,733
Campfire Outfitter
|
Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Feb 2001
Posts: 8,733 |
WGM, nice shooting sir, and post. Dave7mm, nice info on barrels, about to break in my 2nd Bartlein Now speaking of optics Dave, I'd appreciate your 'Cliff notes' if you will on scope preferences in your experience, just a few lines if you don't mind, for my knowledge and if you feel better to PM, that's fine. If you want, thanks again for the post. Learning more each day, great stuff, loads of experience. From Terry Cross on Snipers Hide:
I apologize in advance but I have to rant for a second.
I have always been a huge, huge Leupold advocate. They were always my benchmark for quality, innovation and U.S. workmanship. I own an awful lot of their product and continue to use it regularly.
However. . . . In the last few years, I have seen a change in the way Leupold does business and delivers product to the market. As they have grown, they have embraced many less than admirable traits that seem to define too many parts of American businesses. While their pricing has been steadily increasing at a faster rate than inflation, their quality has dropped. They are still capable of producing a sharp, repeatable optic but not as dependably.
My biggest aggravation with Leupold is the fact that less than 5% of their product line that can be legally stamped "Made in U.S.A." and I'm not even sure that those few are !!! What started out with a few of their Wind River imports has blown into an all out effort to prostitute their name brand for a dollar.
I just received 18 RX-4 range finders, 18 Tactical 10x50 Patrol Binoculars and 18 Mk 4 LR/T 4.5-14x50mm TMR Illum. scopes for a package deal I have to ship. This is pretty much suppossed to be their better gear. Guess what? Range finders "Made In CHINA". Binoculars "Made In China". Scopes have no country of origin marked on the packaging, instructions or product. Call back from Leupold informs me that the scopes are assembled in Oregon but so many of the parts and sub-assemblies are made over-seas (mostly China except for some of their lenses)that they do not qualify for the Made in USA stamp!
I can assure you that sourcing their components and products from China has dropped their costs very, very dramatically while they have continued to raise market prices. You know, honestly, it isn't even the price/profit thing that burns me. It is the fact that they chose to move their sourcing and manufacturing (I do consider "manufacturing" and "assembly" two different beasts in this instance) out of the country and specifically China. Why couldn't they keep most of their production here and just up their pricing 10%? Jesus, I could drop my selling price and triple my profit on freakin Pod-Loc kits if I used components from outside the U.S., but I refuse to go there. Guess that is why I still drive a 10 year old truck.
While they may still have satisfactory product performance and at least attempt innovative ideas occaisionally, I believe that they are straying from their roots, pumping a ton of money into foreign factories and putting yet another hole in the bottom of the lifeboat that retains at least a small fraction of our ability to domestically support our police and military logistics in the event of any serious conflict. I remain firmly convinced that we shall sorely curse the day that we wake up and realize that we need to raise our military to a task only to find out we have cut off our own legs. I aim this statement not only at Leupold but other textile, steel, electronics and molding industries based in the U.S. You don't just start that [bleep] back up inside the U.S. borders overnight.
I will continue to use my original Leupold products but I shall migrate away from giving their company blanket support. I will, instead continue to give more and more support to companies that take risks, accept slightly lower margins and consciously make the effort to strengthen our own economy and workforce. As you purchase your gear or spec out the equipment for your agency bids, please consider more than F.O.V. and click value.
I would seriously love to debate the execs at Leupold in front of their Board about some of this.
DISCLAIMER: I know that some out there will have personal budgets at home that restrict your choices to imports and I totally respect that. A non-US product is better than no product at all in some cases.
DISCLAIMER #2: Yeah, that was more than a second. Sorry. TC
Answer from Lowlight on Snipers Hide.
Amen,
Every year they seem to get farther and farther away from what made them the company worthy of the reputation they have, which I personally feel is no longer warranted.
The shear number of them we see problems with is staggering, on military weapons systems no less. They seem to be completely out of touch with the shooter, all shooters, Civilian, Law Enforcement, and Military.
Unfortunately people still flock to their products based on the past reputation, regardless of the fact their current products don't hold up to that standard. LL
From Lowlight on Snipers Hide:
So what do you tell the guy who traveled 1200 miles to take a class.. he paid $1500 for the class, plus rental car, hotels, meals, and by the first day it fails... now he goes from what he thought was a solid optics with a stellar reputation to being the guy holding up the class while we run up, get a new scope for him, usually I am pulling one of my NF off to switch it for him. If you want to play the one up and working, the NF I use is heavily used, my S&Bs too, and guess what, of all of them, with more combined rounds than I can count, and only one scope has ever gone back for repair. They well worn and definitely show signs of use.
yes, other brands fail, but not nearly with the frequency as we are seeing with Leupold. it's every week in some cases, and even in the military classes we have Nightforce on the unit rifles next to Leupold... but I don't see the NF failing nearly as much, it's stark the reality of it, especially when you see more than 1 or 2 a week.
It's easily 20 to 1 when you compare the Nightforces on the line with the military units, this last class had 4 Leupolds on the line, 1 failed the first day, the remainders where USO, NF, and S&B... Do we see others fail, sure but not nearly as much.
If you want to start a generic scope failure thread go ahead, but don't be surprised by the results. Facts are what the facts are, in a class of 15 Leupolds on the line I expect and account for anywhere from 2 to 5 scopes to go down, I don't figure that with the same number of NF on the line. Its closer to 1 per every six months of classes, not 1 for every six people.
dave That does not even begin to cover the problems I've had. 30000 rounds of short range BR kinda sheds a new light on products that dont measure up. Mr. Burns has a leg up,as his scopes come right out of the custom shop. So with alittle luck the reticles wont be canted and perhaps some one actually looked to see if it was tracking right before they put it in the box to ship. dave
Only accurate rifles are interesting.
|
|
|
|
Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 3,239
Campfire Tracker
|
Campfire Tracker
Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 3,239 |
To those who are trying to put a cat into this dog fight- OK, so if you aren't hunting the land in which this guy hunts, ain't buying or have bought one of his guns that has an issue, or your way of hunting, life or liberty isn't affected by this guys business then why do you give a rat's a**??? Just asking??? Personally, I envy all you guys who get to hunt such heavenly places like the midwest and western states. I envy all you guys who have rifles that make mine look like a red rider bb gun. But if you ain't screwing up my family, pissin' on my house, twisting my religion, shafting my job or hammer dickin' up my hunting land then I'm simply going to let the guy make a living how he sees best? Pursuit of happiness right??? Again, just asking... Seems like so many have a burr in their saddle but really trying to figure out how your dog got in this fight. I'm not taking any side either, just making a statement of the obvious to be honest. If the guy is or isn't a jack wagon then why not just move on to things that make you happy... Come to friggin' think about it, why the h*ll am I even worried about this??? I think I'll take my own advice and go read/post about things I like and want to learn about or share with folks. Pretty much sums it up. John--thanks for the support. You handle yourself alot better than I could. (and yes, I go through break-in )
I should have just bought a [bleep] T3...
|
|
|
|
Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 16,512
Campfire Ranger
|
Campfire Ranger
Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 16,512 |
Thanks for the posts Dave, I too have aired similar comments noting Leupold raising prices at 7-9% in given years while inflation was 2-4%.
Capitalism? Yes, but from an American co. that built and promoted on 'Made in the USA' etc. There is some excess and smoke and mirrors no doubt.
I wish Leupold would get back to where they came from, and for the life of me cannot understand why the USA cannot produce glass on par or better than Asia and Europe.
We put a man on the moon, build a Hubble Telescope, etc. etc.
As the gap has shrunk from the high end Leupolds vs. the top end competitors, I think more and more former users are saying enough.
|
|
|
|
Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 28,277
Campfire Ranger
|
Campfire Ranger
Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 28,277 |
Me too.....as for me and my barrels they will be broken in and they will not...see moly Ducking 4 cover as I write... Bottom line, and I'm not gonnna get into a discussion about this but break in for me is about the "life cycle of the barrel" and not just today. People either get that or don't and for darn sure those that haven't run multiple barrels from beginning to end just won't get it..and I aint about to try to win them over. We all gotta do what makes us happi! Heading to the range in a nanno to break in a barrel..grin Dober
"True respect starts with the way you treat others, and it is earned over a lifetime of demonstrating kindness, honor and dignity"....Tony Dungy
|
|
|
|
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 9,472
Campfire Outfitter
|
Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 9,472 |
I think some of you guys are a bit to invested in this thread. Dont think Greybull rifles are a good value? Vote with your pocket book and dont buy them. The price isn't that out of line considering the target market is for these guns. The only thing I can not come to grips with is the use of a B&C stock on a gun in this price range.
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2009
Posts: 13,860
Campfire Outfitter
|
Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Sep 2009
Posts: 13,860 |
Wasn't the army still using a fixed 10x on their sniper rifles back in '87? I pretty sure Marine Snipers were using a fixed 10x Unertl from the 80's until 2005? Don't recall them needing side focus or adjustable parallax.
Yes, 10X Leupold M3 Ultra (later renamed Mark IV). One min elevation turret, with range in meters for 7.62 x 51/173gr. 0.5 moa windage knob, and a side focus parallax adjustment. Most of those scopes were still in use when I retired in 03.
|
|
|
|
Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 86,133
Campfire Oracle
|
Campfire Oracle
Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 86,133 |
... he could chuck a stock savage into a 2x4 I'll take it!
If you take the time it takes, it takes less time. --Pat Parelli
American by birth; Alaskan by choice. --ironbender
|
|
|
|
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 7,893
Campfire Outfitter
|
Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 7,893 |
just send me a check and i'll wait for it to clear before i put it in the mail..... grins
I can't spell... Deal with it...
|
|
|
|
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 12,630
Campfire Outfitter
|
Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 12,630 |
|
|
|
|
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 7,893
Campfire Outfitter
|
Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 7,893 |
3500 down and the balance due in 9'ish months when it's done and ready to ship... grins
I can't spell... Deal with it...
|
|
|
|
707 members (01Foreman400, 007FJ, 160user, 163bc, 12344mag, 06hunter59, 64 invisible),
3,153
guests, and
1,358
robots. |
Key:
Admin,
Global Mod,
Mod
|
|
Forums81
Topics1,190,581
Posts18,454,119
Members73,908
|
Most Online11,491 Jul 7th, 2023
|
|
|
|