Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Africa .45-70 in africa

I know there have been numerous debates on the .45-70 in africa, and I know a lot of african hunters get upset when us Americans introduce the idea of bringing our gun into your backyards.

I agree that the .458 win mag, .416 rigby, .500 nitro, and other rounds are definately more powerful than the .45-70, and their's no question about that but is all that extra power and recoil and slow loading in a bolt or double rifle style really better then a lever gun with loads that are 75% as powerful but have 50% less recoil and 3x the speed in follow up shots

I have a custom lever action.45-70 that holds 8 cartridges, If I brought this ammo with me to africa I think it would do the job against all game.. yes or no?

http://www.grizzlycartridge.com/-strse-22/45-dsh-70--pls-P-405-Grain/Detail.bok

405 grain brass punch bullet, 2050 FPS 3780 muzzle energy

plus I have 7 follow up shots I can call on faster then any bolt gun could, and less recoil

Sounds good to me. I have a Browning 1886 in 45-70. All I will EVER need.

"Africa's Most Dangerous" by Kevin Robertson page 117: " The current popularity of lever action guide rifles in the US has kindled an interest in the 45-70 being used on the big, dangerous stuff. Despite some pretty impressive claims of full body length penetration on bull buffalo, this load (Garret +P Hammerhead)still falls a long way short of the legal ME requirements for dangerous game (4,00 ft-lbs of ME). And so the use of the 45-70 on buffalo in all African countries should be regarded as illegal."
I believe Scovill has a video for sale at Wolfe Pub. showing him ventilating a buffalo with an 1886 Winchester. Watch it and you might agree with Robertson's opinion.

This isn't garrett ammo, this is grizzly and it has 3,800 foot pounds.

I've used soft point bullets at low velocity for plinking and have seen them with my own 2 eyes go through a 12" live hickory, i'm pretty sure if it can do that it can go through an elephants skull or any other animal on eart

best all around hunting cartridge ever made, so customizeable to the task at hand

.... i'm pretty sure if it can do that it can go through an elephants skull or any other animal on eart[/quote]

to me that is quote says it all, you are pretty sure or you think that the 45-70 might work. for all intend and purposes you are putting your life on the line, so rather than being pretty sure: be damn sure!!. to me when you say the word Africa there is already to many variables, ad to that the fact that you are in Africa for dangerous game hunting. i think you should do everything to minimize variables on your side.

let me take this conversation a step further. this is Africa with our version of the law and African police and all that goes with that. so if something terrible were to happen with you while hunting d,game with your 45-70, things can go very bad from there for the outfitter and the ph. whether you 45/70 is to blame or not is not the problem. as soon as the police find something out of the ordinary they tend to cling to that , and by doing so they know they can finish their investigation more quickly.( they have a scape goat, in this case the ph that allowed you to hunt with a "marginal"/ non traditional calibre)

now usually there is a scout/game ranger along on these d/game hunts. so now you are putting more pressure on the ph to "convince" the government official that he can sign of on the hunt so that you can take your trophy and all that goes with that.

remember although almost all hunts in Africa are without big incidents and goes more than smooth, you are still leaving a first world country to come to the third world , wherein terms such as logic and justice may differ from your perception.

having said all that i am always of the opinion that a 45/70 would probably do the job, but when a buffalo is on the charge i want calibre that WILL do the job.

if you insist on bringing your 45-70, do so,but at least be considerate and warn your ph beforehand

Then WTF are you asking for then?

"plus I have 7 follow up shots I can call on faster then any bolt gun could, and less recoil"

First of all, a big +1 to Dan and his observations about the Third World and Third World law enforcement/investigation. My profession took me around the planet and over those thirty years what he describes is pretty much universal truth. Remember, a marginal round puts all of your team at risk - legal and physical - not just you.

With regard to your rifle, in much buffalo country, and in most herd situations, my admittedly limited buffalo experience suggests the opportunity for a second shot is a pretty fleeting thing regardless of how many rounds a particular rifle holds. With appologies to Mr. Browning, nothing is quicker than a double rifle, and yet getting a second shot off with one of them can be very iffy. What should be a primary concern is getting that first round in exactly the right place.

Would a 45-70 with the right bullet kill a buffalo? Of course it will. So will my .338 with .250 gr partitions. Heck, so will a 30-06. That doesn't make them ideal or legal.

I would suggest doing a first DG hunt with the best heavy medium, scope-equipped rifle you can bring (read .375/.416 class). Much the same should be said about a plains game hunt except make it a medium bore. In the scrub desert of north central Namibia where shots are typically close, your lever gun likely would be fine (on my recent trip to Eden, I took my Evans paradox as my second gun). Though there too, you would miss quite a few opportunities. In the Erongo Mountain region, on the other hand, you would be lucky to have a shot at much of anything closer than 200. Somewher out beyond 200, no matter how hot you load it, that 45-70 starts having the trajectory of a howitzer. You will not want to be sharing a PH with a buddy with such a limiting weapon.

I would suggest taking it as your second rifle on a plains game hunt. Wack a warthog or two with it, and move up as the conditions and your comfort level warrant. Upon your return, you can make a much more informed decision about its proper place in Africa.

Well, I took a .45-70 Marlin Guide Gun, to Africa, for my 1st safari, in July 2008. I shot 7 head of plains game with it. I used 300 gr. nosler partitions, at about 1950 fps.

Having said all that, my son and I are going back to Africa, in August 2011. It will be a dangerous game hunt, including cape buff, hippo, and tuskless ele. I considered modifying my GG, and handloading the punch bullet, for use on the safari. As far as marginal energy, they allow 9.3s and they are marginal also. However, they have something that the .45-70 doesn't have, enough S D to get the job done.

When I threw thr tuskless into the mix, I just couldn't justify the .45-70. So what did I decide? Well a 375 H&H in the other bastion of controversy, the Ruge no. 1 single shot.

I have no doubt that the .45-70 can and will work. It's already taken all of the Big 5, plus croc and hippo.

Actually these forums, today, are a lot "kinder/gentler" on the 45-70, than they were 3-4 yrs. ago

Sooo, Polska, take it if you want to, advise your ph, in advance, and go have fun! Just be careful how hard you expound your theories on the 45-70 on any forum, when you only have a post count of 19


maddog

A friend of mine took an Elephant without any drama what so ever with a 45-70 Contender pistol.

Energy numbers are meaningless as well as SD number. Any bullet with sufficient momentum will get the job done

Polska,
Brian Pierce of Rifle magazine took his 45-70 to Africa with GREAT results.
I'll locate the article and PM you the loads he used.
Your 45-70 will work just fine.

Tom

Yes he did, killing 2 Buffalo with 1 shot...

Search around for threads on Vincent Lupo or I believe Brockman Rifles built his gun for him but he took all of the Big 5 with a 45-70. My only caution would be what Dan was talking about and what is legal/not legal and the countries your dealing with on these legal issues.

1.) Armchair theory is no substitute for in the field experience

2.) There is a reason countries have minimum ballistic requirements. 100 years of hunting and of human tragedy have forged those requirements.

3.) I do not recommend using a marginal caliber on your first buffalo. Go and get one or two under your belt before trying any stunts. This is from someone who has taken Cape Buffalo with a 9.3 JDJ, 8 mm Mag, .338 mag, 9.3 X 62, and .450/400 NE.

The JDJ was effective, but in retrospect that was a stunt. I no longer handgun hunt. The 8 mm Mag was a surgical strike to the brian. I also consider that a stunt. The .338 was used to to take down a wounded buff on the run acting as a backup. The high shoulder shot put him down. While all three of these cartridges proved effective once, I can't recommend them across the board. The 9.3 X 62 is considered a minimum by many for buffalo, and I agree. I have had great success with the 9.3. The .450/400 is even better but even that hardly knocks them on their butt every time.

Now on to elephant. I have a grand total of one under my belt. Until you have hunted and taken one, theories about what is adequate are about as meaningful as arguing the origins of the universe with a [bleep]. I used the .450/400. Taylor loved that cartridge, but considered it light for elephant in the thick stuff. I will not dispute that. Anything that does not have a lanyard attached to it is on the light side when things get hairy in the jess. The .375 H & H has taken plenty of jumbo, and proven itself again and again, yet cropping officers and PH's generally decide something bigger is better.

Polska needs to talk to some PH's in person about booking a hunt. I can't imagine any allowing him to use the 45-70 on elephant under any circumstance, and not on buff until he has proven himself in the field, and probably over the course of more than one safari.

Since everybody's recommending "searches", why don't you do a "search" to see how many Professional Hunters or for that matter clients with significat African experience use and recommend the 45/70. Will it work? absolutely but just like my less effective 405 WCF will also probably work but at least I recognize it for what it is, pushing the envelope with a marginal round. jorge

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Brain Pierce killed 2 Cape Buffalo with 1 shot useing the 45-70. Ross Sefried took a Cape Buffalo with a 450 Westley Richardson Long Range Express with a 480 grain cast bullet at about 1380 FPS the bullet exited. I would not call that "marginal"

Zeus uses lightning, but I don't recommend that for neophytes either.

That right there is funny, I don't care who you are... Of course your experience with the cartridges is???

There is one thing that ought to be considered. A real dead eye shot with a 45-70 is going to be more assured and safer than a suprflinch with a 416 or 458 rifle. If you can dot the "i" with one and are pretty cool nerved, it could be a lot better than pulling a shot badly with a rifle that has a lot more recoil.

I would.

And again I ask, what were the search results for the number of PHs and or clients using the 45/70.