24hourcampfire.com
24hourcampfire.com
Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Hop To
Page 4 of 5 1 2 3 4 5
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 2,580
Campfire Regular
Offline
Campfire Regular
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 2,580
HI there,

as stated in another thread, I'm just back home from a Nambinian hunting trip(and now suffering one of the most awful african disease: PSD for Post Safari Depression. I try to cure it eating biltong but I'm afraid it won't be enough whistle ). I used the 270 grains TSX (sako factory loads, known as "powerhead" loads). Hunting mostly in the bushy and stalking as much as possible, ranges varied from 70 to 160 meters. From 5 of 7 bagged games I recovered 6 bullets.

I was hunting antelopes only. The bullets worked pretty good every time I did my job but I have noticed only 2 of 6 remained in one piece:

[Linked Image]

[Linked Image]

From left to tight: Gemsbok (4 petals missing, remains: 186/270 grains), Gemsbok bis (3 petals missing, remains: 211.5/270 grains), Kudu (2 petals missing, remains: 229/270 grains), Blue Wildebeest (2 petals missing, remains: 249.7/270 grains), Burchell's Zebra (worked as advertised, remains: 270 / 270 grains), red Hartebeest (idem).

Bullet went through

I lost one hartebeest but I believe it was my mistake, not the bullet.

Strongest game reaction: the zebra, broad side heart shot @ 150 meters, it still ran 300 meters befor it felt down, no blood on the track on the 150 first meters and the expansion was of the "advertised" kind.

My observations on that little experiment base:

1. Worked good
2. strong game, no pass trhough, especially with 3/4 facing shots (which are the quickest killing ones through)
3. Hard hits: bullets broken apart in their front section.

Hope this can help in bullet selection.

Last edited by grand_veneur; 07/30/10.

Va t'in tch�re !
BP-B2

Joined: Sep 2010
Posts: 992
Campfire Regular
Offline
Campfire Regular
Joined: Sep 2010
Posts: 992
Originally Posted by maddog
for cape buff and ele? I realize softs/solids on the buff, and solids all the way for the ele. But, Barnes, Noslers, Hornady, Woodleighs? How do I do some initial sorting out, before I wind up buying way to many bullets to try?

Also, what are the chances of loading softs and solids and getting them to hit at the same POI? I want the loads to be around 2400 fps, does that nock some of the bullets out initially[ie: Barnes]?

maddog


Maddog,if I may offer you some advise.Never shoot a buff with a soft. Their hide are simply too thick, which causes the bullet to mushroom before reaching the vitals. I have heard of clients ignoring the PH's instructions after being told to load solids, and then ended up dealing with the consequences...and they were not good. All dangerous game ....solids.
Hope that helps. If you need any questions , please feel free to ask.


Marius Goosen
KMG Hunting Safaris
Professional Hunter and Outfitter
South Africa, Namibia, Mozambique, Zimbabwe, Zambia
http://www.huntsafaris.co.za
[email protected]
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 42,489
Campfire 'Bwana
Offline
Campfire 'Bwana
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 42,489
I'm sorry but that is the most wrongheaded advice I've ever heard for shooting a buffalo, it's so ludicrous it has to be a joke.

Last edited by jorgeI; 09/30/10.

A good principle to guide me through life: “This is all I have come to expect, standard lackluster performance. Trust nothing, believe no one and realize it will only get worse…”
Joined: Jul 2005
Posts: 943
B
Campfire Regular
Offline
Campfire Regular
B
Joined: Jul 2005
Posts: 943
That is quite funny!



For buff I have used A Frames and Hornady solids because they shoot to same POA in my gun and I use the solids mainly for the little "tough" antelope than buf. I am not impressed with a 375 Solid on buf after how I have seen softs work unless you are going for a brain shot.

I have fell in love with the 270 TSX as an all around 375 bullet. This bullet gives me the excuse to use this caliber more often from a rifle looney standpoint. Used it on springbuck up to 450 yards and lion up close and elk because I wanted.
I may not use the 375 on buf again but the clever 375 has a way of finding its way in your hands when after something else a big black shape appears and suddenly buffalo is on the menu.

Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 42,489
Campfire 'Bwana
Offline
Campfire 'Bwana
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 42,489
blaser: that 270 TSX is the greatest thing since sliced bread and big boobs. I spent a long time speaking with Randy Brooks on the subject and when he tested this bullet and the 300gr in Africa, the 270 seemed to give better results on buffalo, same for the 350 in the 416.


A good principle to guide me through life: “This is all I have come to expect, standard lackluster performance. Trust nothing, believe no one and realize it will only get worse…”
IC B2

Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 23,360
Campfire Ranger
Offline
Campfire Ranger
Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 23,360
I'm sorry, but solids only for buff is an antiquated philosophy. I went through a period when I used them, and loaded them for others. Watching the results we got with solids vs expanding bullets, there was no question that solids had more followups and no DRT. With the advent of premium controlled expansion and x/TSX bullets, the argument for solids only just doesn't hold water.


"The Democrat Party looks like Titanic survivors. Partying and celebrating one moment, and huddled in lifeboats freezing the next". Hatari 2017

"Hokey religions and ancient weapons are no match for a good blaster at your side, kid." Han Solo
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 42,489
Campfire 'Bwana
Offline
Campfire 'Bwana
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 42,489
I can't believe a "PH" actually said softs can't penetrate I buffalo's hide! amazing.


A good principle to guide me through life: “This is all I have come to expect, standard lackluster performance. Trust nothing, believe no one and realize it will only get worse…”
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 11,930
Campfire Outfitter
Offline
Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 11,930
I used a 270TSX on a 600lb Mountain Caribou in the Yukon last week. Shot was at 80yds and a bit high in the ribs. Shown is the exit side of the victim.

[Linked Image]

[Linked Image]

Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 918
Campfire Regular
Offline
Campfire Regular
Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 918
That is a DANG nice Caribou!!!!!!!

Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 6,954
A
Campfire Tracker
Offline
Campfire Tracker
A
Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 6,954
I still use and like solids..I have never had a complaint with solids, I don't consider them antiquated..I particularly like the GS Customs flat nose solids and I love the North Fork cup points which are a solid of sorts that expand..I would perfectly happy to hunt everything on this planet with north fork cup points and my 375 H&H or 416 Rem. It is the only "one do everything" bullet that I know of.

I normally use a soft for the first shot followed up with solids. Buffalo are very seldom DRT, that is a falicy or the lucky results of one that has not shot a lot of buffalo, it just does not happen often..One shot broadside with a soft, follow up shots in the posterior with solids is a tried and true practice.

I would not hunt elephant or Hippo with softs at all..

The old timers knew what they were talking about, and many still use solids..there is a place for them.

I have seen a few failure with monolithics, bonded core bullets on buffalo, so I am not soley convienced that today shooters are as knowledgable as those old guys were.

IC B3

Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 42,489
Campfire 'Bwana
Offline
Campfire 'Bwana
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 42,489
Ray; if you read what I and others posted we agree softs should not be used on hippo, elephant on rhino. "old timers" used solids only because they had no confidence in soft points up until a few years ago. Using solids only on buffalo I find totally silly, and especially what that "PH" said above that softs will not penetrate a buff's thick skin. That is absurd. Also our friend Saeed agrees with not using solids as well on buffalo and he's shot plenty of buffalo with this TSX-like Walterhog bullet. The practice of a solid up the ass can be easily done with a TSX as Saeed has done on many ocassion. Nobody said they were antiquated, solids have a place when hunting elephant, rhino or hippo on dry land and those "old guys" used solids because that was the only thing BACK THEN that could be counted on to penetrate.


A good principle to guide me through life: “This is all I have come to expect, standard lackluster performance. Trust nothing, believe no one and realize it will only get worse…”
Joined: Sep 2010
Posts: 992
Campfire Regular
Offline
Campfire Regular
Joined: Sep 2010
Posts: 992
JorgeI, You must come here often. Your knowledge on African game is immense and I bet you dont even need a PH when on your Safari. Why would you need one, you were practically born here.
Would you like me to forward you the clients details , that needed life support before returning from his safari,after almost being killed by the buff he shot in the right place with a soft.
Maybe you and Saeed can visit him.
Please, your sarcastic replies are not appreciated. And as a "PH" i'm telling you that I know what i'm talking about.


Marius Goosen
KMG Hunting Safaris
Professional Hunter and Outfitter
South Africa, Namibia, Mozambique, Zimbabwe, Zambia
http://www.huntsafaris.co.za
[email protected]
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 42,489
Campfire 'Bwana
Offline
Campfire 'Bwana
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 42,489
Not as often as I like unfortunately, and I don't hunt RSA, but there are softs and there are softs and I don't have to live in Africa or be a PH to say that your original statement about softs not penetrating a buffalo's hide are ridiculous unless of course you are using some kind of varmint bullet. Any of the soft points mentioned here will easily penetrate a buffalo's hide and kill him. I'm no PH and my grand total of having shot two buffalo is minuscule, but in Zimbawe where PHs actually have to pass a rigorous series of exams in order to be licensed they recommend softs for buffalo. So yo have one instance of ONE client with an unkown soft in an unkown caliber that failed to kill one buffalo(and I don't doubt it happened I hope you realize I'm not questioning your veracity) and you recommend only solids? You are the first PH I've ever say that in the past twenty years anyway. I have in my hand a copy of Craig Boddington's Book Safari Rifles. In it there is a survey on the back of over 100 PHs questioned on caliber, rifle, ammo, etc., and not one recommends solids exclusively for buffalo. I'm sorry but your advice is off the mark in this regard. jorge


A good principle to guide me through life: “This is all I have come to expect, standard lackluster performance. Trust nothing, believe no one and realize it will only get worse…”
Joined: Sep 2010
Posts: 992
Campfire Regular
Offline
Campfire Regular
Joined: Sep 2010
Posts: 992
Ok JorgeI,
I'll back my facts up against your friends friend that has a friend that once hunted in Africa.
First of all , you cannot become a PH without writing the Exams to qualify. So, I have passed mine. Years ago , as a matter of fact.
Secondly , I never said exclusively shoot buff with solids. They have their place, but not often.
FACT: Elephant-(that YOU want to shoot with a soft) Side on or Front on brain shot. OK you have I dont know how many inches of solid bone to shoot through to get to the brain. I guess I understand why YOU would want to use a soft.
FACT: Hippo: 95% of the time , it will be in the water. Only thing sticking out above the water. You guessed. Front on head shot. Once again, heavy bone.
FACT: Rhino- Anchient Tank that found itself some legs. Has about a 10 inch diameter shoulder bone you need to break. (Shoot it with a soft-hahahaha....idiotic!)
Buffalo- Front on head shot or through the chest. You have about a Square inch target on both, where you need to force that bullet right through there. Chest is protected with bone that looks like two bowling balls on either side. Brain is protected by huge bosses. If you're a little off target, with a soft, you're in the doodie. (You can say hi to the guy on life support)
Fact- Lion- Soft will be fine.

So please, Jorge, dont insult my intelligence. YOU, my friend , are a civillian. I am an outfitter. If I loose a client because his soft was half an inch off and could not break the heavy bone on its way to the target. Thats the end of me. So before you post another of your theories get your facts right and look at where I am coming from.


Marius Goosen
KMG Hunting Safaris
Professional Hunter and Outfitter
South Africa, Namibia, Mozambique, Zimbabwe, Zambia
http://www.huntsafaris.co.za
[email protected]
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 42,489
Campfire 'Bwana
Offline
Campfire 'Bwana
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 42,489
Originally Posted by KMG
Ok JorgeI,
I'll back my facts up against your friends friend that has a friend that once hunted in Africa.
First of all , you cannot become a PH without writing the Exams to qualify. So, I have passed mine. Years ago , as a matter of fact.
Secondly , I never said exclusively shoot buff with solids. They have their place, but not often.
FACT: Elephant-(that YOU want to shoot with a soft) Side on or Front on brain shot. OK you have I dont know how many inches of solid bone to shoot through to get to the brain. I guess I understand why YOU would want to use a soft.
FACT: Hippo: 95% of the time , it will be in the water. Only thing sticking out above the water. You guessed. Front on head shot. Once again, heavy bone.
FACT: Rhino- Anchient Tank that found itself some legs. Has about a 10 inch diameter shoulder bone you need to break. (Shoot it with a soft-hahahaha....idiotic!)
Buffalo- Front on head shot or through the chest. You have about a Square inch target on both, where you need to force that bullet right through there. Chest is protected with bone that looks like two bowling balls on either side. Brain is protected by huge bosses. If you're a little off target, with a soft, you're in the doodie. (You can say hi to the guy on life support)
Fact- Lion- Soft will be fine.

So please, Jorge, dont insult my intelligence. YOU, my friend , are a civillian. I am an outfitter. If I loose a client because his soft was half an inch off and could not break the heavy bone on its way to the target. Thats the end of me. So before you post another of your theories get your facts right and look at where I am coming from.







Craig Boddington has over one hundred safaris to his credit and Saeed has taken over 100 buffalo. Now as to what I said regarding softs & solids:
Originally Posted by jorgeI
Ray; if you read what I and others posted we agree softs should not be used or hippo, elephant on rhino. "old timers" used solids only because they had no confidence in soft points up until a few years ago. Using solids only on buffalo I find totally silly, and especially what that "PH" said above that softs will not penetrate a buff's thick skin. That is absurd. Also our friend Saeed agrees with not using solids as well on buffalo and he's shot plenty of buffalo with this TSX-like Walterhog bullet. The practice of a solid up the ass can be easily done with a TSX as Saeed has done on many ocassion. Nobody said they were antiquated, solids have a place when hunting elephant, rhino or hippo on dry land and those "old guys" used solids because that was the only thing BACK THEN that could be counted on to penetrate.


More:

Originally Posted by jorgeI

First, you don't need solids for buffalo any more unless you are shooting Sierras or some other tinfoil bullet. With todays's premiums, you only need solids for elephant, rhino or body shots on Hippos on land. Personally I've shot buff with A Frames (375 and 416 Rigby) and they were magnificent. Today and if your rifle shoots them, there is no better bullet in terms of penetration and performance than the TSX and for your 375 I'd go with the 270gr pushed as fast as I could get it. jorge


And what *YOU* said:
Originally Posted by KMG

Maddog,if I may offer you some advise.Never shoot a buff with a soft. Their hide are simply too thick, which causes the bullet to mushroom before reaching the vitals. I have heard of clients ignoring the PH's instructions after being told to load solids, and then ended up dealing with the consequences...and they were not good. All dangerous game ....solids.
Hope that helps. If you need any questions , please feel free to ask.


Your words and mine for comparison. Since dangerous game also includes lion and leopard and by your own words "All dangerous game...solids".

And if you bother to READ what I said and corrected, solids are the correct tool for elephant, rhino and hippo on dry land. On the water hippos, like crocs only have one small spot to shoot (and BTW NOT heavy bone THERE) and any soft (or soild) will work just fine. Finally, I am well aware of what it takes to become a PH in RSA and what it takes to become one in Zimbabwe and Tanzania. Not insulting your intelligence Ace, but what *YOU* wrote regarding solids and dangerous game is nonsense. One more thing, the two buffs I've shot at, both with Swift A Frames (416 and 375), BOTH hit the shoulder broke bones and penetrated the heart and lungs, CLEAN THROUGH. And you maybe need to refresh your buffalo anatomy, a 1" square target for a chest shot? And you call me idiotic?...jorge

Last edited by jorgeI; 10/02/10.

A good principle to guide me through life: “This is all I have come to expect, standard lackluster performance. Trust nothing, believe no one and realize it will only get worse…”
Joined: Sep 2010
Posts: 992
Campfire Regular
Offline
Campfire Regular
Joined: Sep 2010
Posts: 992
Yes Yogi bear. 1 square inch is the size of the hole in between the shoulder bones looking from the front.(Anatomically speaking) Thats about what you have to get through to the vitals without touching anything on the way through. But you being the MR Know-it-all should know that. I'm done arguing with you and kindly ask all these dear forum users to send all their questions relating to Africa, and heck anything they want to know to you. Since you know it all. I have taken, guided and shot more african animals than that you have ever seen pictures of in books. I'm done with your BS. Heck, what do I know about Africa, I just live here...


Marius Goosen
KMG Hunting Safaris
Professional Hunter and Outfitter
South Africa, Namibia, Mozambique, Zimbabwe, Zambia
http://www.huntsafaris.co.za
[email protected]
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 3,826
P
Campfire Tracker
Offline
Campfire Tracker
P
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 3,826
I've only been on one safari to RSA, and that was 15 years ago.

Both PHs personally inspected the ammo of clients on DG hunts to insure NO softies were even around on the DG days. Solids only!!

Has something changed that now allows softie shooters to survive the split second charge of a mis-hit Buff?

Wayne

Joined: Sep 2010
Posts: 992
Campfire Regular
Offline
Campfire Regular
Joined: Sep 2010
Posts: 992
Originally Posted by peepsight3006
I've only been on one safari to RSA, and that was 15 years ago.

Both PHs personally inspected the ammo of clients on DG hunts to insure NO softies were even around on the DG days. Solids only!!

Has something changed that now allows softie shooters to survive the split second charge of a mis-hit Buff?

Wayne


Hi Wayne,
Thanks for your post. Nothing has changed. You must understand that it is by no means law, just common sense, if you start looking at Ballistic Coefficient and momentum on your bullet performance.
Someone summed up a buff beautifully the other day by saying:
"They look at you as if you owe them money"

and that my friend says it all....


Marius Goosen
KMG Hunting Safaris
Professional Hunter and Outfitter
South Africa, Namibia, Mozambique, Zimbabwe, Zambia
http://www.huntsafaris.co.za
[email protected]
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 2,200
Campfire Regular
Offline
Campfire Regular
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 2,200
I can't believe what I am reading here. A guy that has killed 2 Buff's telling a guy that does it for a living that he is doing it wrong, basically. Unreal.

Jorge, I'm sure someone can instruct you on how to fly.


Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 6,798
M
maddog Offline OP
Campfire Tracker
OP Offline
Campfire Tracker
M
Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 6,798
Who boys....take it easy! grin

Her is what I intend to do, unless told different by my ph. Solids all the way on the ele and hippo[dryland]. On the cow cape buff, in a herd situation, softs for the 1st shot, solids thereafter.

maddog

Page 4 of 5 1 2 3 4 5

Moderated by  RickBin 

Link Copied to Clipboard
YB23

Who's Online Now
711 members (10Glocks, 11point, 12344mag, 10gaugemag, 17CalFan, 160user, 91 invisible), 2,720 guests, and 1,304 robots.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Forum Statistics
Forums81
Topics1,187,695
Posts18,399,872
Members73,820
Most Online11,491
Jul 7th, 2023


 







Fish & Game Departments | Solunar Tables | Mission Statement | Privacy Policy | Contact Us | DMCA
Hunting | Fishing | Camping | Backpacking | Reloading | Campfire Forums | Gear Shop
Copyright © 2000-2024 24hourcampfire.com, Inc. All Rights Reserved.
Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.7.5
(Release build 20201027)
Responsive Width:

PHP: 7.3.33 Page Time: 0.149s Queries: 15 (0.004s) Memory: 0.9155 MB (Peak: 1.1021 MB) Data Comp: Zlib Server Time: 2024-03-28 23:17:15 UTC
Valid HTML 5 and Valid CSS