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This is so crazy I must be overlooking something. The Hodgdon reloading site seems to suggest that the 308 Norma equals the 300 Win in performance, and does it with a bit less powder and a WHOLE LOT less pressure. Not just in the lighter bullet weights as could be expected, but across the spectrum of bullet weights. The 300 Win has more case capacity, so what am I missing?

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Wayne

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Actually the pressures of the .308 Norma are the same or a bit higher than those in the .300 WM.
The Norma is listed in c.u.p. and the WM is listed in both c.u.p. and p.s.i.


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The 308 Norma just has more cool factor for me, but I do have 2 of them.


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The .050 longer neck and that "cool factor" make me like the Norma more as well.


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+2 on the 308 Norma.
I've been so close to having a 308 Norma put together, several times, my coat got burned..[Linked Image]


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nsaqam

Thanks for pointing out the different pressure units. That helps, but shouldn't a larger capacity case get higher velocity with the slower powders than a smaller case at nearly the same cup pressure? Still seems a little fuzzy to me.

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Originally Posted by nsaqam
The .050 longer neck and that "cool factor" make me like the Norma more as well.

How is the longer neck an advantage?


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peepsight3006;
We've got two .308 Normas, one built on a 98 action that has a 23 5/8" barrel and one built on a tang model Ruger 77 with a 24" barrel.

As well, we've got a .300Win. Mag in the safe in a Ruger #1 with a 26" barrel and a really long throat, so one can make the cartridge pretty much "all it can be."

Speaking in broad terms, I've done some experiments with all three using the same powder, bullet and primer combinations and the Normas will usually come close to equaling the velocity of the .300WM using a grain less powder.

To my way of thinking the Normas are a bit better fit in a 98 action or the Ruger 77 tang model, or perhaps better said, required less tinkering on my part to get them to feed nicely.

I've worked on a couple .300WM built on 98 actions and they needed more work to make a nice fit and feed situation.

As I have no pressure testing equipment I can't speculate on pressures.

Somewhere in my reloading notes I did measure the volume difference in the cases and it isn't really much, perhaps a couple or three grains, but not much in terms of percentage increase.

Lastly, we've always used necked down and blown out .338 brass or necked up and blown out 7mmMag brass because for years Norma brass was quite tough to find up here and very expensive when it was found.

The ironic thing is that using those cases results in a neck roughly equal to the neck length on a .300WM, so I've lost all the advantages of that long neck.

I will say we've not really noticed any practical difference thus far with the shorter neck, but we don't shoot 1000 meter match or anything with our rifles and might if we did? I can't say for sure.

Hopefully that was some use to you. Good luck on your upcoming hunts.

Regards,
Dwayne


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Dwayne

Just confirms, fortunately, what I already think I know. I have a 300 Win and a custom 308 Norma built on the 03A3 4 goove action and barrel. I'm going to see that the crony says this weekend, and it won't take long as I already have the check loads loaded, some with the 300 resized, some with the 7mm Mag blown out, and some with Norma Factory Norma 308 cases.

This a true NEED for the Lead Sled, as my old bones and need for neck surgery preclude such foolishness without. smile

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The pressures are measured in different units. If measured in the same units the 308 would be using slightly higher pressure.

I have two of them. The chambering is, to me the one that should have become most popular.

I still have found no love for the 300 Winny.

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I think the .308 Norma would be fine if you stumbled across a nice rifle at a good price. With a bit of handloading you could have a first-rate big game rifle. I would not, however, go out of my way to buy one, since I already have a good .300 win.

Like BCBrian, mine is a #1 with a long throat, and I have seen 180's driven as fast as 3265 fps - but that was a hot load, and I have backed off since then. 3100 fps with 180's was no problem, and 2950 fps with 180's was startlingly accurate.

It's easier to find match brass and benchrest dies for the .300 win. I could see myself buying another .300 win. Buying a .308 Norma would be possible, but unlikely.



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Back to the Hodgdon site:

300 Win 150 grain 72 grains of H4350 gives 3200 @ 52,500 cup

308 Nor 150 grain 73 grains of H4350 gives 3190 @ 51,200 cup

Same bullet, same powder, same units, same velocity but significant more pressure in the 300 Win.

See, I still don't get it, other than I'm pickin' schidt with the chickens. smile

Wayne



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Different barrel and chamber and that is not a significant pressure difference



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These days, I believe I'd rather have a rifle chambered for the 30/338 than the 308 Norma (just for brass availability). It's a handloading proposition anyhow, so why not? They are essentially the same cartridge.

All that said, my most important "go to" rifle is chambered in 300 Win Mag. Despite the short neck, it is accurate, powerful, and most important, you can buy ammunition anywhere. Wish the Norma had been popular, though; my favorite rifle would have been chambered for it instead.

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The Fall 2010 Special Edition of "Rifle" is dedicated to the .30 caliber, with a lot of good write ups on everything from the 30-30 to the .303 Brit to the magnums.

Re: the .300 WM...

Developed to fit a 30.06 action, Winchester wanted maximum powder capacity. They tested with the short neck, less than bullet diameter, and found no discernable affect on accuracy.

The only disadvantage was that 220 gr bullets would cut into case capacity. However, ammo and bullet sales confirmed that this size of bullet was for the most part a non-factor; 180 to 200 gr made up by far the vast majority of sales. And today, given much improved bullet quality, 150 to 180 gr are fast becoming the largest share of the market.

Indeed, the .300 WM is very popular, and has a notable track record, in 1000 yd competition, generally with 190 gr. match grade ammo.

Point being, more is made of neck length equaling or surpassing bullet diameter, with regard to accuracy, than is actually sustainable at the range. Secondly, why design a cartridge to accommodate a heavy for caliber bullet that 99% of the market doesn't use anyway?



FWIW.

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Sierra Manual shows 100+ FPS advantage for the 300 Win



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Originally Posted by GF1
These days, I believe I'd rather have a rifle chambered for the 30/338 than the 308 Norma (just for brass availability). It's a handloading proposition anyhow, so why not? They are essentially the same cartridge.

All that said, my most important "go to" rifle is chambered in 300 Win Mag. Despite the short neck, it is accurate, powerful, and most important, you can buy ammunition anywhere. Wish the Norma had been popular, though; my favorite rifle would have been chambered for it instead.


+1. The ONLY difference between 30-338 and the Norma is .040" in the setback of the shoulder.


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Well a very enjoyable thread. I have 2 300 Win Mags and a 03-A3 in 308 Norma Mag and submit the following observations. The 1st 300 Win Mag is a pushfeed M70 with a max load of RL22 and 180 gr NP fired by a FED 215 it gives great accuracy and 3100 fps Chrony average. The magazine in this gun allows cartridges no longer than 3.33" for reliable feeding. The 2nd gun is a M700 ss with plastic stock,it has a tighter chamber and cases used in the M70 are not resizable to be used in the M700. so I keep them seperated ,it would not even come close to tolerating the loads I use in the M70 with no problems. The M700 has a 3.6"+ magazine and longer throat so I can seat the bullet further out for more case capacity, but it did not help. 70 grs of IMR 4350 is all it will shoot with accuracy using the 180 NP. Both guns will shoot with various loads, bullets in the 165-168 gr range at 3000-3100fps with great accuracy and have shot many deer with them.
The 308 Norma was built on a 03-A3, they rechambered it and opened the bolt face and of course still retains the 06 magazine length. This was a semi popular project when Norma brought out the 308 Norma in the early 60's.I have both 308 Norma brass and reformed 338 Win Mag brass for it. Of course the reformed 338 Win Mag brass is .048" short compared to new Norma stuff. I have allways had better accuracy with the correct length Norma brass.The factory 180 gr Dualcore Norma ammo is loaded to 3.25" and all factory and handloads feed well from the magazine . Can't tell you if the mag rails were altered, I never have looked, it just works and I don't fix what isn't broke.Most of my reloading for the Norma has been centered around 165 gr bullet weight as it is all you need for deer. This rifle is over 10 lbs loaded so it don't go to elk country.I have also found that I don't need to load it full throttle for the desired results.
So I think it boils down to this for me ,loaded up or loaded down they all do the same thing 100 fps one way or the other as long as you put the bullet where it belongs. I like them all and have shot plenty of deer and a couple of elk with the 2 300 Win Mags. You don't have too get the last fps out of them for their effectiveness. Magnum_Man

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There is one thing that owners of the .308 Norma might not know.

Back in the late 50s and early 60s, many .30-06s were rechambered to the .308 Norma, along with some .308 Win. being re-chambered.

Some of the reamers used were made without provision to ream a throat, and rifles chambered with these reamers would give indications of high pressures with both factory loads and also the minimum loads listed in loading manuals.

Working as a gunsmith during this time, I came across several of these rifles so chambered.

The no-throat chamber is okay, as long as you know you have it, and know to have a throat, also called a bullet seat cut, so the bullet has some jump on leaving the case and before it engages the rifling. The problem comes in when you do not know it, and try to either handloads or factory loads.

Another problem is that many of the gunsmiths re-chambering rifles for the .308 Norma were not aware of this, either.

When I first begin to run into the problem, I spent considerable time running down the whats and whys of this. Finally, I was told by a reamer manufacturer that the reason some reamers were made this way was so the gunsmith could cut a throat suitable for the bullet being used.

As mentioned above, a lot of gunsmiths did not know about this and used the reamer as is.

There are probably many .308 Normas around from this time period that have been traded and changed hands because the owner tried the minimum load listed in loading manuals, or else factory loads, and discovered that he had to hammer the bolt open when using otherwise mild appearing loads.

The fix is simple--just buy a .30 cal. throating reamer and ream out about a 1/4 to 5/16 inch throat. It has been so long since I did it that I can't remember the actual throat depth, but I remember how I came up with the measurement I used.

I had an 03 Springfield in .30-06 that gave exceptional accuracy, even with the military barrel. I measured the throat in this barrel, and cut the .308 Norma throats the same length.

Some readers might know about this, and others might wonder why they have to hammer the bolt open on their .308 Normas, and why the primers fall out when the bolt is opened and the casing removed. The above is the reason.

I just wanted to post this in the event that it benefits other .308 Norma rifle owners. Maybe the information can be useful to someone.

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Both of mine have extremely long throats. I can't reach the lands and get them in the magazine.

Despite that they are very accurate.

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