Page 1 of 6 1 2 3 4 5 6 >
Topic Options
#4504391 - 10/15/10 07:37 AM 308 Norma Mag vs 300 Win Mag
peepsight3006 Offline
Campfire Guide

Registered: 10/10/06
Posts: 3815
Loc: Utah
This is so crazy I must be overlooking something. The Hodgdon reloading site seems to suggest that the 308 Norma equals the 300 Win in performance, and does it with a bit less powder and a WHOLE LOT less pressure. Not just in the lighter bullet weights as could be expected, but across the spectrum of bullet weights. The 300 Win has more case capacity, so what am I missing?

Thanks,

Wayne

Top
#4504420 - 10/15/10 07:48 AM Re: 308 Norma Mag vs 300 Win Mag [Re: peepsight3006]
nsaqam Offline
Campfire Kahuna

Registered: 05/01/08
Posts: 16540
Loc: Hermantown MN
Actually the pressures of the .308 Norma are the same or a bit higher than those in the .300 WM.
The Norma is listed in c.u.p. and the WM is listed in both c.u.p. and p.s.i.
_________________________
The Chosin Few November to December 1950, Korea.
I'm not one of the Chosin Few but no more remarkable group of Americans ever existed.

Top
#4504460 - 10/15/10 08:00 AM Re: 308 Norma Mag vs 300 Win Mag [Re: nsaqam]
Hawk_Driver Offline
Campfire Ranger

Registered: 11/20/04
Posts: 2178
Loc: Tucson, AZ
The 308 Norma just has more cool factor for me, but I do have 2 of them.
_________________________

Top
#4504477 - 10/15/10 08:06 AM Re: 308 Norma Mag vs 300 Win Mag [Re: Hawk_Driver]
nsaqam Offline
Campfire Kahuna

Registered: 05/01/08
Posts: 16540
Loc: Hermantown MN
The .050 longer neck and that "cool factor" make me like the Norma more as well.
_________________________
The Chosin Few November to December 1950, Korea.
I'm not one of the Chosin Few but no more remarkable group of Americans ever existed.

Top
#4504508 - 10/15/10 08:20 AM Re: 308 Norma Mag vs 300 Win Mag [Re: nsaqam]
DMB Offline
Campfire 'Bwana

Registered: 07/10/04
Posts: 13436
Loc: Grayling, MI
+2 on the 308 Norma.
I've been so close to having a 308 Norma put together, several times, my coat got burned..
_________________________
Don Buckbee

JPFO
NRA Benefactor Member
NSSA Life Member







Top
#4504524 - 10/15/10 08:25 AM Re: 308 Norma Mag vs 300 Win Mag [Re: DMB]
peepsight3006 Offline
Campfire Guide

Registered: 10/10/06
Posts: 3815
Loc: Utah
nsaqam

Thanks for pointing out the different pressure units. That helps, but shouldn't a larger capacity case get higher velocity with the slower powders than a smaller case at nearly the same cup pressure? Still seems a little fuzzy to me.

Wayne

Top
#4504532 - 10/15/10 08:29 AM Re: 308 Norma Mag vs 300 Win Mag [Re: nsaqam]
doubletap Offline
Campfire Tracker

Registered: 12/05/07
Posts: 5012
Loc: Atlanta
Originally Posted By: nsaqam
The .050 longer neck and that "cool factor" make me like the Norma more as well.

How is the longer neck an advantage?
_________________________
He who joyfully marches in rank and file has already earned my contempt. He has been given a large brain by mistake, since for him the spinal cord would suffice.

- Albert Einstein

Top
#4504570 - 10/15/10 08:46 AM Re: 308 Norma Mag vs 300 Win Mag [Re: peepsight3006]
BC30cal Offline
Campfire Tracker

Registered: 05/30/07
Posts: 5902
Loc: Okanagan Falls, BC
peepsight3006;
We've got two .308 Normas, one built on a 98 action that has a 23 5/8" barrel and one built on a tang model Ruger 77 with a 24" barrel.

As well, we've got a .300Win. Mag in the safe in a Ruger #1 with a 26" barrel and a really long throat, so one can make the cartridge pretty much "all it can be."

Speaking in broad terms, I've done some experiments with all three using the same powder, bullet and primer combinations and the Normas will usually come close to equaling the velocity of the .300WM using a grain less powder.

To my way of thinking the Normas are a bit better fit in a 98 action or the Ruger 77 tang model, or perhaps better said, required less tinkering on my part to get them to feed nicely.

I've worked on a couple .300WM built on 98 actions and they needed more work to make a nice fit and feed situation.

As I have no pressure testing equipment I can't speculate on pressures.

Somewhere in my reloading notes I did measure the volume difference in the cases and it isn't really much, perhaps a couple or three grains, but not much in terms of percentage increase.

Lastly, we've always used necked down and blown out .338 brass or necked up and blown out 7mmMag brass because for years Norma brass was quite tough to find up here and very expensive when it was found.

The ironic thing is that using those cases results in a neck roughly equal to the neck length on a .300WM, so I've lost all the advantages of that long neck.

I will say we've not really noticed any practical difference thus far with the shorter neck, but we don't shoot 1000 meter match or anything with our rifles and might if we did? I can't say for sure.

Hopefully that was some use to you. Good luck on your upcoming hunts.

Regards,
Dwayne
_________________________
The most important stuff in life isn't "stuff"


Top
#4504638 - 10/15/10 09:16 AM Re: 308 Norma Mag vs 300 Win Mag [Re: BC30cal]
peepsight3006 Offline
Campfire Guide

Registered: 10/10/06
Posts: 3815
Loc: Utah
Dwayne

Just confirms, fortunately, what I already think I know. I have a 300 Win and a custom 308 Norma built on the 03A3 4 goove action and barrel. I'm going to see that the crony says this weekend, and it won't take long as I already have the check loads loaded, some with the 300 resized, some with the 7mm Mag blown out, and some with Norma Factory Norma 308 cases.

This a true NEED for the Lead Sled, as my old bones and need for neck surgery preclude such foolishness without. smile

Wayne

Top
#4504665 - 10/15/10 09:31 AM Re: 308 Norma Mag vs 300 Win Mag [Re: peepsight3006]
Dancing Bear Offline
Campfire Ranger

Registered: 11/26/05
Posts: 2428
Loc: Portland, Ore
The pressures are measured in different units. If measured in the same units the 308 would be using slightly higher pressure.

I have two of them. The chambering is, to me the one that should have become most popular.

I still have found no love for the 300 Winny.


Edited by Dancing Bear (10/15/10 09:32 AM)

Top
#4504944 - 10/15/10 11:34 AM Re: 308 Norma Mag vs 300 Win Mag [Re: Dancing Bear]
tex_n_cal Offline
Campfire 'Bwana

Registered: 12/30/02
Posts: 14161
Loc: Back in Texas, for good!
I think the .308 Norma would be fine if you stumbled across a nice rifle at a good price. With a bit of handloading you could have a first-rate big game rifle. I would not, however, go out of my way to buy one, since I already have a good .300 win.

Like BCBrian, mine is a #1 with a long throat, and I have seen 180's driven as fast as 3265 fps - but that was a hot load, and I have backed off since then. 3100 fps with 180's was no problem, and 2950 fps with 180's was startlingly accurate.

It's easier to find match brass and benchrest dies for the .300 win. I could see myself buying another .300 win. Buying a .308 Norma would be possible, but unlikely.
_________________________
"...and a mild headache..."


Top
#4504974 - 10/15/10 11:46 AM Re: 308 Norma Mag vs 300 Win Mag [Re: tex_n_cal]
peepsight3006 Offline
Campfire Guide

Registered: 10/10/06
Posts: 3815
Loc: Utah
Back to the Hodgdon site:

300 Win 150 grain 72 grains of H4350 gives 3200 @ 52,500 cup

308 Nor 150 grain 73 grains of H4350 gives 3190 @ 51,200 cup

Same bullet, same powder, same units, same velocity but significant more pressure in the 300 Win.

See, I still don't get it, other than I'm pickin' schidt with the chickens. smile

Wayne

Top
#4504989 - 10/15/10 11:51 AM Re: 308 Norma Mag vs 300 Win Mag [Re: peepsight3006]
jwp475 Offline
Campfire Kahuna

Registered: 04/24/05
Posts: 18248
Loc: USA


Different barrel and chamber and that is not a significant pressure difference
_________________________
Originally Posted By: Jeff_O
.they WAY over penetrate on deer...


Top
#4505591 - 10/15/10 04:50 PM Re: 308 Norma Mag vs 300 Win Mag [Re: jwp475]
GF1 Offline
Campfire Guide

Registered: 11/22/08
Posts: 2576
These days, I believe I'd rather have a rifle chambered for the 30/338 than the 308 Norma (just for brass availability). It's a handloading proposition anyhow, so why not? They are essentially the same cartridge.

All that said, my most important "go to" rifle is chambered in 300 Win Mag. Despite the short neck, it is accurate, powerful, and most important, you can buy ammunition anywhere. Wish the Norma had been popular, though; my favorite rifle would have been chambered for it instead.

Top
#4506879 - 10/16/10 08:22 AM Re: 308 Norma Mag vs 300 Win Mag [Re: peepsight3006]
sir_springer Offline
Campfire Ranger

Registered: 04/02/08
Posts: 1510
Loc: Cranbrook, BC, Canada
The Fall 2010 Special Edition of "Rifle" is dedicated to the .30 caliber, with a lot of good write ups on everything from the 30-30 to the .303 Brit to the magnums.

Re: the .300 WM...

Developed to fit a 30.06 action, Winchester wanted maximum powder capacity. They tested with the short neck, less than bullet diameter, and found no discernable affect on accuracy.

The only disadvantage was that 220 gr bullets would cut into case capacity. However, ammo and bullet sales confirmed that this size of bullet was for the most part a non-factor; 180 to 200 gr made up by far the vast majority of sales. And today, given much improved bullet quality, 150 to 180 gr are fast becoming the largest share of the market.

Indeed, the .300 WM is very popular, and has a notable track record, in 1000 yd competition, generally with 190 gr. match grade ammo.

Point being, more is made of neck length equaling or surpassing bullet diameter, with regard to accuracy, than is actually sustainable at the range. Secondly, why design a cartridge to accommodate a heavy for caliber bullet that 99% of the market doesn't use anyway?



FWIW.


Edited by sir_springer (10/16/10 08:33 AM)

Top
#4506890 - 10/16/10 08:29 AM Re: 308 Norma Mag vs 300 Win Mag [Re: peepsight3006]
jwp475 Offline
Campfire Kahuna

Registered: 04/24/05
Posts: 18248
Loc: USA


Sierra Manual shows 100+ FPS advantage for the 300 Win
_________________________
Originally Posted By: Jeff_O
.they WAY over penetrate on deer...


Top
#4506910 - 10/16/10 08:42 AM Re: 308 Norma Mag vs 300 Win Mag [Re: GF1]
Bob338 Offline
Campfire Ranger

Registered: 06/14/11
Posts: 2384
Loc: Placerville, CA
Originally Posted By: GF1
These days, I believe I'd rather have a rifle chambered for the 30/338 than the 308 Norma (just for brass availability). It's a handloading proposition anyhow, so why not? They are essentially the same cartridge.

All that said, my most important "go to" rifle is chambered in 300 Win Mag. Despite the short neck, it is accurate, powerful, and most important, you can buy ammunition anywhere. Wish the Norma had been popular, though; my favorite rifle would have been chambered for it instead.


+1. The ONLY difference between 30-338 and the Norma is .040" in the setback of the shoulder.
_________________________
Used to be bobski, member since '01

Top
#4507009 - 10/16/10 09:49 AM Re: 308 Norma Mag vs 300 Win Mag [Re: ]
Magnum_Man Offline
Campfire Guide

Registered: 11/11/09
Posts: 2597
Well a very enjoyable thread. I have 2 300 Win Mags and a 03-A3 in 308 Norma Mag and submit the following observations. The 1st 300 Win Mag is a pushfeed M70 with a max load of RL22 and 180 gr NP fired by a FED 215 it gives great accuracy and 3100 fps Chrony average. The magazine in this gun allows cartridges no longer than 3.33" for reliable feeding. The 2nd gun is a M700 ss with plastic stock,it has a tighter chamber and cases used in the M70 are not resizable to be used in the M700. so I keep them seperated ,it would not even come close to tolerating the loads I use in the M70 with no problems. The M700 has a 3.6"+ magazine and longer throat so I can seat the bullet further out for more case capacity, but it did not help. 70 grs of IMR 4350 is all it will shoot with accuracy using the 180 NP. Both guns will shoot with various loads, bullets in the 165-168 gr range at 3000-3100fps with great accuracy and have shot many deer with them.
The 308 Norma was built on a 03-A3, they rechambered it and opened the bolt face and of course still retains the 06 magazine length. This was a semi popular project when Norma brought out the 308 Norma in the early 60's.I have both 308 Norma brass and reformed 338 Win Mag brass for it. Of course the reformed 338 Win Mag brass is .048" short compared to new Norma stuff. I have allways had better accuracy with the correct length Norma brass.The factory 180 gr Dualcore Norma ammo is loaded to 3.25" and all factory and handloads feed well from the magazine . Can't tell you if the mag rails were altered, I never have looked, it just works and I don't fix what isn't broke.Most of my reloading for the Norma has been centered around 165 gr bullet weight as it is all you need for deer. This rifle is over 10 lbs loaded so it don't go to elk country.I have also found that I don't need to load it full throttle for the desired results.
So I think it boils down to this for me ,loaded up or loaded down they all do the same thing 100 fps one way or the other as long as you put the bullet where it belongs. I like them all and have shot plenty of deer and a couple of elk with the 2 300 Win Mags. You don't have too get the last fps out of them for their effectiveness. Magnum_Man

Top
#4507184 - 10/16/10 11:26 AM Re: 308 Norma Mag vs 300 Win Mag [Re: Magnum_Man]
1234567 Offline
Campfire Guide

Registered: 11/26/07
Posts: 4320
There is one thing that owners of the .308 Norma might not know.

Back in the late 50s and early 60s, many .30-06s were rechambered to the .308 Norma, along with some .308 Win. being re-chambered.

Some of the reamers used were made without provision to ream a throat, and rifles chambered with these reamers would give indications of high pressures with both factory loads and also the minimum loads listed in loading manuals.

Working as a gunsmith during this time, I came across several of these rifles so chambered.

The no-throat chamber is okay, as long as you know you have it, and know to have a throat, also called a bullet seat cut, so the bullet has some jump on leaving the case and before it engages the rifling. The problem comes in when you do not know it, and try to either handloads or factory loads.

Another problem is that many of the gunsmiths re-chambering rifles for the .308 Norma were not aware of this, either.

When I first begin to run into the problem, I spent considerable time running down the whats and whys of this. Finally, I was told by a reamer manufacturer that the reason some reamers were made this way was so the gunsmith could cut a throat suitable for the bullet being used.

As mentioned above, a lot of gunsmiths did not know about this and used the reamer as is.

There are probably many .308 Normas around from this time period that have been traded and changed hands because the owner tried the minimum load listed in loading manuals, or else factory loads, and discovered that he had to hammer the bolt open when using otherwise mild appearing loads.

The fix is simple--just buy a .30 cal. throating reamer and ream out about a 1/4 to 5/16 inch throat. It has been so long since I did it that I can't remember the actual throat depth, but I remember how I came up with the measurement I used.

I had an 03 Springfield in .30-06 that gave exceptional accuracy, even with the military barrel. I measured the throat in this barrel, and cut the .308 Norma throats the same length.

Some readers might know about this, and others might wonder why they have to hammer the bolt open on their .308 Normas, and why the primers fall out when the bolt is opened and the casing removed. The above is the reason.

I just wanted to post this in the event that it benefits other .308 Norma rifle owners. Maybe the information can be useful to someone.

Top
#4508330 - 10/16/10 07:17 PM Re: 308 Norma Mag vs 300 Win Mag [Re: 1234567]
Dancing Bear Offline
Campfire Ranger

Registered: 11/26/05
Posts: 2428
Loc: Portland, Ore
Both of mine have extremely long throats. I can't reach the lands and get them in the magazine.

Despite that they are very accurate.

Top
#4508878 - 10/17/10 05:31 AM Re: 308 Norma Mag vs 300 Win Mag [Re: 1234567]
DMB Offline
Campfire 'Bwana

Registered: 07/10/04
Posts: 13436
Loc: Grayling, MI
Originally Posted By: 1234567
There is one thing that owners of the .308 Norma might not know.

Back in the late 50s and early 60s, many .30-06s were rechambered to the .308 Norma, along with some .308 Win. being re-chambered.

Some of the reamers used were made without provision to ream a throat, and rifles chambered with these reamers would give indications of high pressures with both factory loads and also the minimum loads listed in loading manuals.

Working as a gunsmith during this time, I came across several of these rifles so chambered.

The no-throat chamber is okay, as long as you know you have it, and know to have a throat, also called a bullet seat cut, so the bullet has some jump on leaving the case and before it engages the rifling. The problem comes in when you do not know it, and try to either handloads or factory loads.

Another problem is that many of the gunsmiths re-chambering rifles for the .308 Norma were not aware of this, either.

When I first begin to run into the problem, I spent considerable time running down the whats and whys of this. Finally, I was told by a reamer manufacturer that the reason some reamers were made this way was so the gunsmith could cut a throat suitable for the bullet being used.

As mentioned above, a lot of gunsmiths did not know about this and used the reamer as is.

There are probably many .308 Normas around from this time period that have been traded and changed hands because the owner tried the minimum load listed in loading manuals, or else factory loads, and discovered that he had to hammer the bolt open when using otherwise mild appearing loads.

The fix is simple--just buy a .30 cal. throating reamer and ream out about a 1/4 to 5/16 inch throat. It has been so long since I did it that I can't remember the actual throat depth, but I remember how I came up with the measurement I used.

I had an 03 Springfield in .30-06 that gave exceptional accuracy, even with the military barrel. I measured the throat in this barrel, and cut the .308 Norma throats the same length.

Some readers might know about this, and others might wonder why they have to hammer the bolt open on their .308 Normas, and why the primers fall out when the bolt is opened and the casing removed. The above is the reason.

I just wanted to post this in the event that it benefits other .308 Norma rifle owners. Maybe the information can be useful to someone.


That's good to know.
Thanks for writing about it.

Don
_________________________
Don Buckbee

JPFO
NRA Benefactor Member
NSSA Life Member







Top
#4509410 - 10/17/10 08:52 AM Re: 308 Norma Mag vs 300 Win Mag [Re: 1234567]
SU35 Offline
Campfire 'Bwana

Registered: 08/13/02
Posts: 11859
Loc: Yavapai County
Quote:
Some readers might know about this, and others might wonder why they have to hammer the bolt open on their .308 Normas, and why the primers fall out when the bolt is opened and the casing removed. The above is the reason.

I just wanted to post this in the event that it benefits other .308 Norma rifle owners. Maybe the information can be useful to someone.


I needed to read this as my father in law had his win 70 pre-64, 06, re-chambered by a smith back in early 60's.
It's a 308 Norma now and I was was thinking of loading for it.

Top
#4509469 - 10/17/10 09:17 AM Re: 308 Norma Mag vs 300 Win Mag [Re: SU35]
Happy Birthday sactoller Online   content
Campfire Tracker

Registered: 09/06/06
Posts: 6846
Loc: Weatherford, TX
I went the the .308Norma and cannot be happier. My brother liked mine so much, he is having one done on a Winchester.

Oh, yes, and cool factor!
_________________________
Official member of "The Clan of Turd-like People"




Top
#4509642 - 10/17/10 10:47 AM Re: 308 Norma Mag vs 300 Win Mag [Re: sactoller]
Tejano Offline
Campfire Ranger

Registered: 10/31/08
Posts: 1687
Loc: Out Yonder
At first Norma would provide reamers to qualified gunsmiths for re-chambering. This was even before production ammo was available. They wanted to insure a market when the ammo was produced a year later.

I believe the Norma reamer had a long throat almost a free bore to it. This could explain the higher charges with lower pressure between the two cases. As noted above with custom reamers no telling what the throat length could be or even the no throat chamber.
_________________________
There's still a prayer as long as there is lead in the air.
T. Roosevelt

Top
#4509672 - 10/17/10 11:01 AM Re: 308 Norma Mag vs 300 Win Mag [Re: Tejano]
Mesabi Offline
Campfire Regular

Registered: 12/04/05
Posts: 665
Loc: Kansas and Minnesota
This is a timely discussion! I'm eyeballing a pre-64 Model 70 in .30-338 that seems reasonably priced.

Top
#4509908 - 10/17/10 01:03 PM Re: 308 Norma Mag vs 300 Win Mag [Re: Hawk_Driver]
efw Offline
Campfire 'Bwana

Registered: 11/30/07
Posts: 11364
Loc: Mi.
Originally Posted By: Hawk_Driver
The 308 Norma just has more cool factor for me...


+1

If I was going to build a 30 cal mag I'd do the 308 Norma Mag, load it w/ 200s and go kill stuff...
_________________________
I need a drink of something like water
I need a taste of love divine
Sometimes you just gotta do what you oughta
Sometimes you bring up the water when the well is dry

-Buddy Miller

PYCOTC...

Top
#4509995 - 10/17/10 01:36 PM Re: 308 Norma Mag vs 300 Win Mag [Re: efw]
viking Online   content
Campfire Ranger

Registered: 04/20/08
Posts: 1904
Loc: Texas
Years ago I had a 30-338 made, it had a K and P cut rifled barrel. It started life as a 300 Win Mag. The Ruger action IMO was/is a little short for seating bullets out, it worked but the 30-338 was better suited for the action.

I shot nothing but 190 BTSP's in it. 70 grains of 3100 propelled the bullet to 2974 FPS.
_________________________
Glocks remind me of an old German farm wife, kinda thick but will work night and day.

Top
#4514053 - 10/18/10 09:16 PM Re: 308 Norma Mag vs 300 Win Mag [Re: viking]
downwindtracker2 Offline
Campfire Guide

Registered: 05/27/01
Posts: 2675
Loc: B.C.
I had a P-17 rechamberd,headspace questions, and choose a 308Norma over a 300WM. The box on a P-17 is 3.40 and a 300WM ends up about an 1/8" longer than the 308Norma. Until I found some Norma at a gunshow for a good price,I used 300WM and trimmed.
_________________________
You can hunt longer with wind at your back

Top
#4517110 - 10/20/10 04:36 AM Re: 308 Norma Mag vs 300 Win Mag [Re: downwindtracker2]
greydog Offline
Campfire Ranger

Registered: 06/11/04
Posts: 2480
When the 300 Win Mag was developed, the 308 Norma was fairly well established and Winchester could have simply chambered for the Norma and everyone would have been happy. They might have done so except for a couple of things. Obviously, they wanted their own cartridge with the Winchester name. Also, the 308 Norma was loaded HOT! I suspect the pressures generated by the Norma factory loads at the time were a bit higher than Winchester engineers were comfortable with.
The obvious thing for Winchester to have done would have been to produce the 30/338. They would have then had four cartridges based on the same brass and would have had a cartridge which fit the pre-64 Model 70 nicely. The problem was, the 308 Norma was, as I mentioned, already well established. The marketing people at Winchester felt that, in order to compete with the Norma, their cartridge had to be physically larger so it would, at least, have the appearance of greater power. Winchester ads emphasized this size advantage and this may well have played a part in the success of the Winchester offering. In truth, ready availability of ammunition probably played as large a part. A 300 Winchester based on 338 brass would probably have fared well in the marketplace just due to the availability issue but I don't doubt that, in this instance, size mattered.
Some may have noticed that the 308 Norma case is actually slightly longer than the 358 Norma and may have wondered why. The reason was to ensure that the 308 Norma reamer would clean up a 30/06 chamber.
In the mid-seventies, Norma thinned the web of the brass to add capacity to the 7x61 S&H brass and this carried over to the 308 Norma so later 308 Brass will have a thinner web and sidewalls. At about this same time, pressures were reduced somewhat (the pressure reduction might have resulted from the increase in capacity but I suspect the powder charge might have been backed off a bit as well) and so was velocity.
Some may find it interesting to compare dimensions between the 308 Norma and the old 30 Newton. I have long theorized, had Winchester chambered the Model 54 (and later, the Model 70)for the Newton cartridges, we would never have seen the 308 Norma or the 300 Winchester. In fact, we would probably have never seen any of the standard magnum cartridges and the 300 H&H would have stayed in England. GD

Top
#4937981 - 02/14/11 08:19 AM Re: 308 Norma Mag vs 300 Win Mag [Re: Dancing Bear]
moosemike Offline
Campfire Ranger

Registered: 06/10/10
Posts: 2401
Loc: PA
Very timely discussion. I just got a Springfield in .308 Norma. Is it better to use 338 or 300 Win mag brass to reform?
_________________________
"You've got more people wanting to go moose hunting in New Hampshire than want Obamacare."

Mike Huckabee



Top
#4938085 - 02/14/11 08:52 AM Re: 308 Norma Mag vs 300 Win Mag [Re: moosemike]
SOFMatchstaff Offline
Campfire Regular

Registered: 07/27/08
Posts: 479
Loc: Las Vegas
It depends on your chamber, as in trim length. I use 300Win brass, sized in the Norma die and then trimmed to a matching proper length. The 338 and 7mag brass comes out short for my chamber, and 300 stuff is already 30 cal. My die is set to headspace the round on the shoulder, versus the belt, so if the bolt closes hard on a newly formed piece, I know its to long. This is a start up procedure, as I already know what length to trim for my rifle. yours may be different as noted before concerning the different reamer specs.
_________________________
NRA Benefactor

Top
#4939349 - 02/14/11 03:43 PM Re: 308 Norma Mag vs 300 Win Mag [Re: moosemike]
Dancing Bear Offline
Campfire Ranger

Registered: 11/26/05
Posts: 2428
Loc: Portland, Ore
The one time I fooled with it I used .300 Win Mag as I have a form and trim die.

It gives you the right length neck when you are done.

I finally got enough factory brass that I don't fool with forming other brass. I like having the right headstamp.

Top
#4943339 - 02/15/11 04:27 PM Re: 308 Norma Mag vs 300 Win Mag [Re: Dancing Bear]
moosemike Offline
Campfire Ranger

Registered: 06/10/10
Posts: 2401
Loc: PA
OK, thanks. I might try both.
_________________________
"You've got more people wanting to go moose hunting in New Hampshire than want Obamacare."

Mike Huckabee



Top
#4943341 - 02/15/11 04:27 PM Re: 308 Norma Mag vs 300 Win Mag [Re: moosemike]
seattlesetters Offline
Campfire Ranger

Registered: 05/27/09
Posts: 1539
Loc: Bellevue, Washington
6 = 1/2 dozen

Top
#4953937 - 02/18/11 12:04 PM Re: 308 Norma Mag vs 300 Win Mag [Re: seattlesetters]
tbear99 Offline
Campfire Outfitter

Registered: 11/29/02
Posts: 7859
Loc: UPSTATE NY
another one that never warmed to the 300 win but have 2 308 norma's which i love first is a parker hale safari deluxe and then the rem 700 bdl lefthanded
_________________________
DEATH BEFORE DISHONOR

I LOVE MY COUNTRY IT'S THE GOV'T I FEAR

Top
#4954219 - 02/18/11 01:34 PM Re: 308 Norma Mag vs 300 Win Mag [Re: tbear99]
Huntz Offline
Campfire Tracker

Registered: 10/28/07
Posts: 5298
Loc: N.E.Wisconsin
Snipers in Afghanistan are using The 300 Winchester Mag.If The 308 Norma mag was better,they would be using that.
_________________________
The older I get,the better I wuz!!!!

Top
#4954605 - 02/18/11 03:23 PM Re: 308 Norma Mag vs 300 Win Mag [Re: Huntz]
jwall Offline
Campfire Guide

Registered: 09/06/10
Posts: 4577
Loc: Southern Arkansas
Huh Oh: Are we goin there again? lol

........Bring on the popcorn & COOL AID! ! !


JWALL
_____________

VEGETARIAN.......Indian Word For Poor Hunter
_________________________
jwall

"The 270 Winchester, Every Man's Beltless Magnum" JOC

There is no aftermarket FIX for operator error. jw


Top
#4954618 - 02/18/11 03:26 PM Re: 308 Norma Mag vs 300 Win Mag [Re: jwall]
doubletap Offline
Campfire Tracker

Registered: 12/05/07
Posts: 5012
Loc: Atlanta
Don't like popcorn or Kool Aid. How about peanuts and beer.
_________________________
He who joyfully marches in rank and file has already earned my contempt. He has been given a large brain by mistake, since for him the spinal cord would suffice.

- Albert Einstein

Top
#4954635 - 02/18/11 03:34 PM Re: 308 Norma Mag vs 300 Win Mag [Re: Huntz]
moosemike Offline
Campfire Ranger

Registered: 06/10/10
Posts: 2401
Loc: PA
Originally Posted By: Huntz
Snipers in Afghanistan are using The 300 Winchester Mag.If The 308 Norma mag was better,they would be using that.



Ridiculous. The cartridges are 6 of one or a half dozen of the other. I guess your logic proves the 5.56 is also superior to the .222 Remington magnum as well?
_________________________
"You've got more people wanting to go moose hunting in New Hampshire than want Obamacare."

Mike Huckabee



Top
#4955632 - 02/18/11 08:28 PM Re: 308 Norma Mag vs 300 Win Mag [Re: moosemike]
Huntz Offline
Campfire Tracker

Registered: 10/28/07
Posts: 5298
Loc: N.E.Wisconsin
Originally Posted By: moosemike
Originally Posted By: Huntz
Snipers in Afghanistan are using The 300 Winchester Mag.If The 308 Norma mag was better,they would be using that.



Ridiculous. The cartridges are 6 of one or a half dozen of the other. I guess your logic proves the 5.56 is also superior to the .222 Remington magnum as well?

No they are not the same.Winchester has the edge on case capacity.Why argue with me.The US Military made the choice not me.They do it for a reason.The same reason they use the 308 Win. and 338 Lapau.They simply work better than other cartridges..I have nothing against the Norma cartridge other than it serves no purpose other than to start retarded arguments.


Edited by Huntz (02/18/11 08:29 PM)
_________________________
The older I get,the better I wuz!!!!

Top
#4955664 - 02/18/11 08:38 PM Re: 308 Norma Mag vs 300 Win Mag [Re: Huntz]
jwp475 Offline
Campfire Kahuna

Registered: 04/24/05
Posts: 18248
Loc: USA
Originally Posted By: Huntz
Snipers in Afghanistan are using The 300 Winchester Mag.If The 308 Norma mag was better,they would be using that.



Since when does the Military always select the best small arms cartirdge?
_________________________
Originally Posted By: Jeff_O
.they WAY over penetrate on deer...


Top
#4955676 - 02/18/11 08:40 PM Re: 308 Norma Mag vs 300 Win Mag [Re: Huntz]
Alan_R_McDaniel_Jr Online   content
Campfire Guide

Registered: 12/13/08
Posts: 3056
Loc: Goliad, TX
The purpose it serves and the purpose for which it was developed is that it fits in standard length Mauser actions. If yo don't like the Norma you can always sue the 30/338 Wildcat. I really like my 308 Norma. I don't have a 300 Win Mag but there is no particular reason why I don't other than I never bought or built one.

Alan
_________________________
Food is at the core of Hunting and Fishing - Rebecca Gray


Top
#4955682 - 02/18/11 08:42 PM Re: 308 Norma Mag vs 300 Win Mag [Re: nsaqam]
bsa1917hunter Offline
Campfire Kahuna

Registered: 08/12/10
Posts: 17446
Loc: Orygun
Originally Posted By: nsaqam
The .050 longer neck and that "cool factor" make me like the Norma more as well.


+1 on that.
_________________________
Originally Posted By: raybass
I try to stick with the basics, they do so well. Nothing fancy mind you, just plain jane will get it done with style.


BSA

Top
#4955714 - 02/18/11 08:50 PM Re: 308 Norma Mag vs 300 Win Mag [Re: peepsight3006]
7 STW Offline
Campfire 'Bwana

Registered: 12/04/05
Posts: 12126
Imagine a fast barrel on either one would decide which is faster.They're so damn close the barrel will be the difference.
_________________________
Mike


Top
#4955716 - 02/18/11 08:50 PM Re: 308 Norma Mag vs 300 Win Mag [Re: SU35]
bsa1917hunter Offline
Campfire Kahuna

Registered: 08/12/10
Posts: 17446
Loc: Orygun
Originally Posted By: SU35
Quote:
Some readers might know about this, and others might wonder why they have to hammer the bolt open on their .308 Normas, and why the primers fall out when the bolt is opened and the casing removed. The above is the reason.

I just wanted to post this in the event that it benefits other .308 Norma rifle owners. Maybe the information can be useful to someone.


I needed to read this as my father in law had his win 70 pre-64, 06, re-chambered by a smith back in early 60's.
It's a 308 Norma now and I was was thinking of loading for it.




You've got the ultimate rifle there as far as I'm concerned grin
_________________________
Originally Posted By: raybass
I try to stick with the basics, they do so well. Nothing fancy mind you, just plain jane will get it done with style.


BSA

Top
#4955719 - 02/18/11 08:51 PM Re: 308 Norma Mag vs 300 Win Mag [Re: 7 STW]
7 STW Offline
Campfire 'Bwana

Registered: 12/04/05
Posts: 12126
Myself will take the belted Winchester round.
_________________________
Mike


Top
#4955749 - 02/18/11 08:59 PM Re: 308 Norma Mag vs 300 Win Mag [Re: Huntz]
wyliec Offline
Campfire Regular

Registered: 08/20/05
Posts: 583
Originally Posted By: Huntz
Originally Posted By: moosemike
Originally Posted By: Huntz
Snipers in Afghanistan are using The 300 Winchester Mag.If The 308 Norma mag was better,they would be using that.



Ridiculous. The cartridges are 6 of one or a half dozen of the other. I guess your logic proves the 5.56 is also superior to the .222 Remington magnum as well?

No they are not the same.Winchester has the edge on case capacity.Why argue with me.The US Military made the choice not me.They do it for a reason.The same reason they use the 308 Win. and 338 Lapau.They simply work better than other cartridges..I have nothing against the Norma cartridge other than it serves no purpose other than to start retarded arguments.


+1

Top
#4956587 - 02/19/11 07:29 AM Re: 308 Norma Mag vs 300 Win Mag [Re: wyliec]
moosemike Offline
Campfire Ranger

Registered: 06/10/10
Posts: 2401
Loc: PA
Originally Posted By: wyliec
Originally Posted By: Huntz
Originally Posted By: moosemike
Originally Posted By: Huntz
Snipers in Afghanistan are using The 300 Winchester Mag.If The 308 Norma mag was better,they would be using that.



Ridiculous. The cartridges are 6 of one or a half dozen of the other. I guess your logic proves the 5.56 is also superior to the .222 Remington magnum as well?

No they are not the same.Winchester has the edge on case capacity.Why argue with me.The US Military made the choice not me.They do it for a reason.The same reason they use the 308 Win. and 338 Lapau.They simply work better than other cartridges..I have nothing against the Norma cartridge other than it serves no purpose other than to start retarded arguments.


+1



They are the same. Nothing or no one will ever be able to notice the difference between those two rounds. A box of Factory ammo alone has a greater velocity variation than those two rounds do.
_________________________
"You've got more people wanting to go moose hunting in New Hampshire than want Obamacare."

Mike Huckabee



Top
#4956948 - 02/19/11 09:17 AM Re: 308 Norma Mag vs 300 Win Mag [Re: moosemike]
DesertMuleDeer Offline
Campfire Ranger

Registered: 02/22/09
Posts: 1831
Although, I don't have one right now, I love the .300 Win Mag. It get's great velocity and has always been extremely accurate for me. I even like the short neck in that I have never had trouble with bullets moving in the 3 or 4 I've owned and the case just looks cool with the long body.

Top
#4956957 - 02/19/11 09:19 AM Re: 308 Norma Mag vs 300 Win Mag [Re: DesertMuleDeer]
DesertMuleDeer Offline
Campfire Ranger

Registered: 02/22/09
Posts: 1831
The only one .300 Win Mag I've owned that I didn't like was a NULA. Although it shot well for me, the stock didn't fit me great and felt recoil was fairly high for me.

Top
#7360928 - 01/25/13 11:26 AM Re: 308 Norma Mag vs 300 Win Mag [Re: DesertMuleDeer]
dtspoke Offline
Campfire Regular

Registered: 11/29/10
Posts: 319
Loc: Colorado
Dug this thread up because I've been considering a .308 Norma Mag just to spice up my gun rack.

Any other thoughts?

Top
#7360992 - 01/25/13 11:40 AM Re: 308 Norma Mag vs 300 Win Mag [Re: dtspoke]
greydog Offline
Campfire Ranger

Registered: 06/11/04
Posts: 2480
The 308 Norma was and is a very nicely designed cartridge. Case capacity is just about as much as you need in a thirty. While it doesn't really perform any better than a 300 Winchester, it just seems a little more exclusive! If using a Pre-64 action, a Ruger, or a Mauser, it fits the magazine nicely and will feed well. My Model 70 feeds so well, it's hard to believe a cartridge actually went into the chamber. It will certainly add some class to your gun rack! GD

Top
#7361144 - 01/25/13 12:16 PM Re: 308 Norma Mag vs 300 Win Mag [Re: greydog]
dtspoke Offline
Campfire Regular

Registered: 11/29/10
Posts: 319
Loc: Colorado
And Lord knows that I could use a little class.

The only drawback that I've found is just finding brass or factory ammo.

This may be an ignorant question, but are the factory (specifically Norma factory) loads pushing max pressures or are they more conservative?

Top
#7361387 - 01/25/13 01:10 PM Re: 308 Norma Mag vs 300 Win Mag [Re: dtspoke]
SEdge Offline
Campfire Regular

Registered: 07/13/10
Posts: 1046
Loc: Spring Hope N.C.
Originally Posted By: dtspoke
And Lord knows that I could use a little class.

The only drawback that I've found is just finding brass or factory ammo.

This may be an ignorant question, but are the factory (specifically Norma factory) loads pushing max pressures or are they more conservative?


Norma loads to the max.
_________________________
Originally Posted By: P_Weed

I never met a gun I didn't like.

SEdge,

I have an AMT Hardballer I can fix you up with.

Top
#7361675 - 01/25/13 02:14 PM Re: 308 Norma Mag vs 300 Win Mag [Re: dtspoke]
Dancing Bear Offline
Campfire Ranger

Registered: 11/26/05
Posts: 2428
Loc: Portland, Ore
I still have two. I still like it best of the .300 mags.

I would like to try a wildcat .300-.375 Ruger some time though.

Huntington's stocks .308 Norma cases.

I don't know if Norma has reduced presssures but I believe so as velocities with current loads are down 75fps+- from some old plastic points I shot several years ago.


Originally Posted By: dtspoke
Dug this thread up because I've been considering a .308 Norma Mag just to spice up my gun rack.

Any other thoughts?

Top
#7361716 - 01/25/13 02:24 PM Re: 308 Norma Mag vs 300 Win Mag [Re: Dancing Bear]
Mark R Dobrenski Offline
Campfire Oracle

Registered: 04/19/01
Posts: 28277
Loc: Bozeman, Montana
This is just my impression but I've kind of thought of the 308 NM as being a bit slower than the WM. By bit I mean 50-100 fps slower.

That said, I've kind of thought of it as a long actioned/standard actioned 300 WSM.

Just my take... cool

Dober
_________________________
"True respect starts with the way you treat others, and it is earned over a lifetime of demonstrating kindness, honor and dignity"....Tony Dungy

Top
#7361930 - 01/25/13 03:13 PM Re: 308 Norma Mag vs 300 Win Mag [Re: Mark R Dobrenski]
BobinNH Offline
Campfire Oracle

Registered: 01/28/07
Posts: 28231
Isn't the 308 Norma the old 30-338? I think you can form it from 338 brass(?)
_________________________
Just because I'm not listening...doesn't mean I'm not paying attention.

Top
#7362038 - 01/25/13 03:38 PM Re: 308 Norma Mag vs 300 Win Mag [Re: dtspoke]
tex_n_cal Offline
Campfire 'Bwana

Registered: 12/30/02
Posts: 14161
Loc: Back in Texas, for good!
Originally Posted By: dtspoke
Dug this thread up because I've been considering a .308 Norma Mag just to spice up my gun rack.

Any other thoughts?


Yes, before I realized it was an old thread, I realized that way back when I had inadvertently addressed BC30cal as "BCBrian" blush

Dwayne, please accept my humble and belated apologies for my DA mistake.

As far as the cartridge and rifle goes, I can't remember the last time I saw a .308 Norma. Can't get excited about one. Now a .358 Norma could be real interesting, though. smile
_________________________
"...and a mild headache..."


Top
#7362149 - 01/25/13 04:08 PM Re: 308 Norma Mag vs 300 Win Mag [Re: tex_n_cal]
CCCC Offline
Campfire Guide

Registered: 09/10/08
Posts: 4034
Loc: New Mexico High Country
Have both - really not 2c difference in loads, but the Norma gives a bit more neck brass with which to work.
_________________________
NRA Life, Benefactor, Patron

Top
#7362353 - 01/25/13 04:59 PM Re: 308 Norma Mag vs 300 Win Mag [Re: tex_n_cal]
BC30cal Offline
Campfire Tracker

Registered: 05/30/07
Posts: 5902
Loc: Okanagan Falls, BC
tex_n_cal;
I trust that this finds you well on this snowy afternoon sir - well it's snowy up here anyway.

There is and was absolutely no need for any apology as far as I'm concerned.

It's an easy path to go down seeing as both Brian and I chose to start our respective online handles with a "BC", physically we're only a few hours apart and from what I've seen of photos of Brian we share the same basic haircut.... laugh

While it might seem counterintuitive, with regard to Dober's comment about Norma's running a bit behind a Winchester, that hasn't been our experience. Admittedly though I've only chronoed a few examples of each and haven't done anything close to an exhaustive study.

As mentioned earlier by a few others such as my respected cyber friend greydog, the Norma is an easy fit in a standard Mauser length action and that was the reason I initially began to play with the cartridge.

Of course there is no magic to it, but again we've found it to be a useful round for hunting our backyard mountains.

All the best to you tex_n_cal in the upcoming weekend.

Regards,
Dwayne


Edited by BC30cal (01/25/13 05:00 PM)
Edit Reason: better sentence?
_________________________
The most important stuff in life isn't "stuff"


Top
Page 1 of 6 1 2 3 4 5 6 >


Moderator:  RickBin, SYSOP 
Support Our Sponsors 1
Who's Online
688 registered (12savage, 1flier, 13red56, 16gauge, 10ring1, 78 invisible), 1480 Guests and 336 Spiders online.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Support Our Sponsors 2
Forum Stats
50569 Members
72 Forums
636758 Topics
9137523 Posts

Max Online: 4366 @ 10/05/10 09:36 AM
Support Our Sponsors 3









Copyright 2000-2013 24hourcampfire.com, Inc. All Rights Reserved.