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Originally Posted by 1234567
There is one thing that owners of the .308 Norma might not know.

Back in the late 50s and early 60s, many .30-06s were rechambered to the .308 Norma, along with some .308 Win. being re-chambered.

Some of the reamers used were made without provision to ream a throat, and rifles chambered with these reamers would give indications of high pressures with both factory loads and also the minimum loads listed in loading manuals.

Working as a gunsmith during this time, I came across several of these rifles so chambered.

The no-throat chamber is okay, as long as you know you have it, and know to have a throat, also called a bullet seat cut, so the bullet has some jump on leaving the case and before it engages the rifling. The problem comes in when you do not know it, and try to either handloads or factory loads.

Another problem is that many of the gunsmiths re-chambering rifles for the .308 Norma were not aware of this, either.

When I first begin to run into the problem, I spent considerable time running down the whats and whys of this. Finally, I was told by a reamer manufacturer that the reason some reamers were made this way was so the gunsmith could cut a throat suitable for the bullet being used.

As mentioned above, a lot of gunsmiths did not know about this and used the reamer as is.

There are probably many .308 Normas around from this time period that have been traded and changed hands because the owner tried the minimum load listed in loading manuals, or else factory loads, and discovered that he had to hammer the bolt open when using otherwise mild appearing loads.

The fix is simple--just buy a .30 cal. throating reamer and ream out about a 1/4 to 5/16 inch throat. It has been so long since I did it that I can't remember the actual throat depth, but I remember how I came up with the measurement I used.

I had an 03 Springfield in .30-06 that gave exceptional accuracy, even with the military barrel. I measured the throat in this barrel, and cut the .308 Norma throats the same length.

Some readers might know about this, and others might wonder why they have to hammer the bolt open on their .308 Normas, and why the primers fall out when the bolt is opened and the casing removed. The above is the reason.

I just wanted to post this in the event that it benefits other .308 Norma rifle owners. Maybe the information can be useful to someone.


That's good to know.
Thanks for writing about it.

Don


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Quote
Some readers might know about this, and others might wonder why they have to hammer the bolt open on their .308 Normas, and why the primers fall out when the bolt is opened and the casing removed. The above is the reason.

I just wanted to post this in the event that it benefits other .308 Norma rifle owners. Maybe the information can be useful to someone.


I needed to read this as my father in law had his win 70 pre-64, 06, re-chambered by a smith back in early 60's.
It's a 308 Norma now and I was was thinking of loading for it.



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I went the the .308Norma and cannot be happier. My brother liked mine so much, he is having one done on a Winchester.

Oh, yes, and cool factor!


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At first Norma would provide reamers to qualified gunsmiths for re-chambering. This was even before production ammo was available. They wanted to insure a market when the ammo was produced a year later.

I believe the Norma reamer had a long throat almost a free bore to it. This could explain the higher charges with lower pressure between the two cases. As noted above with custom reamers no telling what the throat length could be or even the no throat chamber.


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This is a timely discussion! I'm eyeballing a pre-64 Model 70 in .30-338 that seems reasonably priced.

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Originally Posted by Hawk_Driver
The 308 Norma just has more cool factor for me...


+1

If I was going to build a 30 cal mag I'd do the 308 Norma Mag, load it w/ 200s and go kill stuff...

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Years ago I had a 30-338 made, it had a K and P cut rifled barrel. It started life as a 300 Win Mag. The Ruger action IMO was/is a little short for seating bullets out, it worked but the 30-338 was better suited for the action.

I shot nothing but 190 BTSP's in it. 70 grains of 3100 propelled the bullet to 2974 FPS.

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I had a P-17 rechamberd,headspace questions, and choose a 308Norma over a 300WM. The box on a P-17 is 3.40 and a 300WM ends up about an 1/8" longer than the 308Norma. Until I found some Norma at a gunshow for a good price,I used 300WM and trimmed.


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When the 300 Win Mag was developed, the 308 Norma was fairly well established and Winchester could have simply chambered for the Norma and everyone would have been happy. They might have done so except for a couple of things. Obviously, they wanted their own cartridge with the Winchester name. Also, the 308 Norma was loaded HOT! I suspect the pressures generated by the Norma factory loads at the time were a bit higher than Winchester engineers were comfortable with.
The obvious thing for Winchester to have done would have been to produce the 30/338. They would have then had four cartridges based on the same brass and would have had a cartridge which fit the pre-64 Model 70 nicely. The problem was, the 308 Norma was, as I mentioned, already well established. The marketing people at Winchester felt that, in order to compete with the Norma, their cartridge had to be physically larger so it would, at least, have the appearance of greater power. Winchester ads emphasized this size advantage and this may well have played a part in the success of the Winchester offering. In truth, ready availability of ammunition probably played as large a part. A 300 Winchester based on 338 brass would probably have fared well in the marketplace just due to the availability issue but I don't doubt that, in this instance, size mattered.
Some may have noticed that the 308 Norma case is actually slightly longer than the 358 Norma and may have wondered why. The reason was to ensure that the 308 Norma reamer would clean up a 30/06 chamber.
In the mid-seventies, Norma thinned the web of the brass to add capacity to the 7x61 S&H brass and this carried over to the 308 Norma so later 308 Brass will have a thinner web and sidewalls. At about this same time, pressures were reduced somewhat (the pressure reduction might have resulted from the increase in capacity but I suspect the powder charge might have been backed off a bit as well) and so was velocity.
Some may find it interesting to compare dimensions between the 308 Norma and the old 30 Newton. I have long theorized, had Winchester chambered the Model 54 (and later, the Model 70)for the Newton cartridges, we would never have seen the 308 Norma or the 300 Winchester. In fact, we would probably have never seen any of the standard magnum cartridges and the 300 H&H would have stayed in England. GD

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Very timely discussion. I just got a Springfield in .308 Norma. Is it better to use 338 or 300 Win mag brass to reform?

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It depends on your chamber, as in trim length. I use 300Win brass, sized in the Norma die and then trimmed to a matching proper length. The 338 and 7mag brass comes out short for my chamber, and 300 stuff is already 30 cal. My die is set to headspace the round on the shoulder, versus the belt, so if the bolt closes hard on a newly formed piece, I know its to long. This is a start up procedure, as I already know what length to trim for my rifle. yours may be different as noted before concerning the different reamer specs.


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The one time I fooled with it I used .300 Win Mag as I have a form and trim die.

It gives you the right length neck when you are done.

I finally got enough factory brass that I don't fool with forming other brass. I like having the right headstamp.

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OK, thanks. I might try both.

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6 = 1/2 dozen


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another one that never warmed to the 300 win but have 2 308 norma's which i love first is a parker hale safari deluxe and then the rem 700 bdl lefthanded


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Snipers in Afghanistan are using The 300 Winchester Mag.If The 308 Norma mag was better,they would be using that.


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Huh Oh: Are we goin there again? lol

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Originally Posted by Huntz
Snipers in Afghanistan are using The 300 Winchester Mag.If The 308 Norma mag was better,they would be using that.



Ridiculous. The cartridges are 6 of one or a half dozen of the other. I guess your logic proves the 5.56 is also superior to the .222 Remington magnum as well?

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Originally Posted by moosemike
Originally Posted by Huntz
Snipers in Afghanistan are using The 300 Winchester Mag.If The 308 Norma mag was better,they would be using that.



Ridiculous. The cartridges are 6 of one or a half dozen of the other. I guess your logic proves the 5.56 is also superior to the .222 Remington magnum as well?

No they are not the same.Winchester has the edge on case capacity.Why argue with me.The US Military made the choice not me.They do it for a reason.The same reason they use the 308 Win. and 338 Lapau.They simply work better than other cartridges..I have nothing against the Norma cartridge other than it serves no purpose other than to start retarded arguments.

Last edited by Huntz; 02/18/11.

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