Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Long Range Hunting 6.5-06/140gr vs 270W/140gr on deer out to 550yds.

140-grainers in the 6.5-06
140-grainers in the 270W

What is the difference in ballistics out to say 550yds?

How do they fly...

Who makes the 160 grain bullet in the 6.5 and what is it's BC?

Woodleigh @ 0.509?

Sorry guys...I corrected my post...

140 grainers

BC .487 .277 140 grain Berger
BC .612 .264 140 grain Berger

Depending on the velocities you will not see huge differences, but my guess is the wind drift on the .264
You should have more velocity with the 270, but the higher BC of the 6.5 should have a sleight edge out to 550.

I don't use these cartridges, so i don't have a baseline on MV's

Regardless, the deer is not going to be able to tell the difference @ that distance-Dead is dead, if you put the bullet where it belongs.
I just popped a muley buck on Wednesday at 496 yards with a 6.5, using the 130 Berger=DRT! MV is 3095 fps.

Thanks Ernie I appreciate it!

I'm looking at which one would FLY better in regards to wind drift primarily at this point and I should've mentioned that
initially...I shoot a 270W/130gr, but I have the opportunity to purchase a 6.5/06 from a good friend at a superb deal!

Never shot a 140gr in my 270W before and was just entertaining the thought of how the 6.5-06/140-grainer would compare at that range...

Yep, dead is dead for sure...shot-placement is #1....

BIG CONGRATS connecting on that MULEY!!!

Wind drift based on 10 mph wind at 550 yards

6.5 140gr @ 2800fps = 19.4"

.277 140gr @ 2900fps = 21.7"

This is assuming these velocities which appear to be near max according to the Hodgdon load guide

2.3" of wind differences.
I thought it would be close, with the 6.5 winning.
Now my choices would be upon which rifle is the most accurate and that you can shoot the best from field positions.

.............To get a real good idea, go to the Hornady site and find their "external" ballistics table.

Type in all the goodies: the bullet BCs, bullet weights, preferred rifle zero yardage, approx MVs, temps etc. Then compare the two calibers downrange at various distances for retained velocities, energys and trajectory drops. It`ll give you all the info you`ll need in order to make very accurate comparisons.

On another thread here, there was a video which showed Wayne Van Zwoll using a 6.5 Creedmoor (129 gr Horn SST) downing a bull elk at 603 yards with one shot.

Of the two for deer, I`d be more inclined to use the 6.5/06 along with some (my particular bullet preference), the Berger "hunting" VLDs. At 550 yards, that will be a very quick and deadly combo.

I'm thinking the 6.5-06 has a lot more potential velocity with 140s.

The little 6.5 Creedmoor makes 2800+ fps with 140s, in factory loaded ammo.

The Creedmoor has 53 gr case capacity.
The 6.5-06 had 68 gr case capacity.

In terms of the 'numbers' I would expect it would favour the 6.5 - a much more popular caliber for long range shooting / high BC bullets. The biggest difference would perhaps be that 270 Win is one of the most popular factory cartridges around, whereas the 6.5-06 is obviously (still AFAIK) a 'wildcat'. If you're already set for a rifle, and don't care about factory loads, then perhaps that won't matter to you. Otherwise, they will be pretty close in all things, as one might expect given the near identical cases and .007" difference in bullet diameter.

.....Yes! The 6.5/06 is more powerful than the Creed. I just brought the Creedmoor up because Van Zwoll used it in the video.

Out to 550 yards or more on deer, the 6.5/06 will be superior.

bigsqueeze, I wasn't referencing your comments, I'm just saying Hodgdon's data at 2800 fps is nowhere near the potential of the 6.5-06.

If the Creed can make 2800 fps with a 140gr, the 6.5-06 with over 25% more case volume should be able to make around 3000 fps with the right powder choice.

My standard load in my own 6.5-06 (26" barrel) is the 140-grain Berger VLD at 2950 fps, using 56.0 grains of H1000.

In the same length barrel, a Ruger Hawkeye in 6.5 Creedmoor gets just under 2800 with the same bullet and Ramshot Hunter. This is just about what the 1/4 Rule calculates the difference should be.

MD, your velocity of 2950 via H1000 calcs around 56K lbs-psi, per QL.

RL22, VV N560, Ramshot Magnum among others, look to have 3000+ fps potential, via 24" bbl, at 60-62K psi, and around 100-104% load density.

Now, how about some real world 270 Win MV's with 140's?
As it stands now, 150 fps more with the 6.5-06, will just make for even less drop and drift than before-Which is always a good thing.

MontanaMarine,

I gave up on relying on QL years ago. I tried a bunch of powders, including the three you mention, and never could break 3000 comfortably with any 140-grain bullet, even in the 26" barrel.

The highest velocity Nosler lists with the 140 in their 24" barreled 6.5-06 test barrel is 2906, with N165. RL-22 tops out at 2860. Now, those maxes are probably with the 140 Partition, which generates more pressure than most bullets.

Rl 17 and Magnum will easily take it there, not that it needs to.

I tried Magnum and it didn't shoot nearly as well as H1000. Haven't tried RL-17 yet.

As a follow-up, I did a search for all the pressure-tested data on the 6.5-06 I could find, plus a little extra.

Hodgdon lists 55.0 grains of H1000 as max with the 142 Sierra MK, which should be pretty close to the 140 Berger VLD: 2816 fps at 63,300. So I am already one grain over their max.

The highest velocity listed by Hodgdon is 2889 fps, with 49.5 grains of Hybrid 100V @63,200 psi.

Ramshot doesn't list the 6.5-06 but does have data for the 6.5/.284, which is just about identical in case capacity when bullets are seated out--and they are in the Ramshot data.

They list Magnum as getting 3070 fps with the 140 Sierra GameKing, with 62.0 grains at 64,000 psi. But with the 142 MatchKing they list 59.0 grains of Magnum as max, for 2900 fps at 63,200 psi.

All of the above data is from 24" barrels.

Obviously the velocity attainable is very bullet dependent, but still I am really doubting the QL results--and have for years.

Alliant doesn't list any data for the 6.5-06 or 6.5/.284, but I just did an in-depth analysis of their pressure-tested Reloder 17 data for a magazine article, and couldn't find the velocity magic that many people report with RL-17. In fact PowerPro 4000MR beats RL-17 in several cartridges, along with older Reloder powders such as 19, 22 and 25.

I know QL charge-to-velocity is not always accurate. No surprise with all the variables in guns and components.

I was looking at the QL calcs from the pressure-to-velocity correlations. That's how I use it nowadays. Then I ladder up over the chrono, stopping where chrono velocity correlates to the 60-62K pressure calc.

Anyway, sounds like you have tested results, where I'm just making conversation/speculation.

Re: original ?, I think both are up to the task, when a good bullet is threaded thru vitals. Something not just any shooter can do, but many can learn w/practice, and an LRF, wind being your biggest hurdle perhaps.

Well, I'd sneak a little closer.

Both of you always seem pretty solid.

MontanaMarine,

That's generally how I use QL as well anymore, on the rare occasions I use it. I much prefer to use pressure-tested data, though!

In regards to the original question, the .270 will be capable of a little more muzzle velocity, which pretty much compensates for the difference in in BC out to 550.

When working up loads for a 'wildcat' like 6.5-06, does one typically base pressure limits etc. on 'similar' cartridges with SAAMI specs? Such as the .25-06 or 270 Win in this instance?

Hence the reason I sold a bunch of wildcats and loaded 500+ rounds of the Hornady 140 BTSP over 58 grains of H4831 SC for my 270 and just called it good.

I wish I could shoot well enough that the difference at 500 yards would make a difference.....

deadkenny,

That's apparently the way Nosler and Hodgdon worked their loads up.

Another way to load for wildcats is to extrapolate from data for similar rounds. In this case, the .270 Winchester would be the easiest, since there's abundant data for 140-grain bullets.
The laws of internal ballistics suggest that the 6.5/06 is capable of about 97.5% of the velocity of the .270 with the same bullet weights.

Most .270 data doesn't list 140-grain loads that get 3000 fps in a 24" barrel. Most list a top velocity of just under 3000 fps. Barnes, however, lists several loads that top 3000, the fastest 3050 (IMR4831), which translates to 2974 for the 6.5-06.

One faster possibility, though, is Accurate MagPro--though their data doesn't include a 140-grain bullet. With a 130 it lists 3234 and with a 150 a flat 3000 fps, which means that a 140 should get around 3100. That would work out to around 3025 in the 6.5-06.

The 6.5-06 and 6.5-284 are pretty much ballistic twins based on bore and case volume. Load data should be pretty close.

In my 6.5-06, I am running RL22 and RL25 under 140 Berger vld bullets. On a wounded antelope buck at 530 yards laying prone and finishing it off before it made it under a fence, the berger did a perfect job and dropped it in its tracks. It was going to die from a buddies shot, just not fast enough.

On my doe at 498 yards, I dialed the cds and when she stopped to look back, the berger just slammed her down.

On my antelope buck at 220 yards, I clipped the back edge of the front shoulder, lost 2 pounds of meat and put him down in 5 yards.

On my mountain goat at 200 or so yards, it was dead right there with about half a front shoulder lost.

I cannot imagine telling a difference between the 270 or the 6.5-06 however I am completely sold on the speed and accuracy of the Leupold CDS system.

Got two more tags for plains deer in December and hope to have more results to post.

Yeah, that's what I decided after doing an article on both rounds, chambered in otherwise identical E.R. Shaw rifles. Case capacity was the same, as near as I could measure it with water, and ballistics were just about identical with the same powder charges and bullets as well--though each rifle slightly preferred different bullets and powders.

moosemuncher,

What sort of accuracy are you getting?

Using the 140 Vlds, I got 8 rounds in .6" at 100. At 550 still holding very close to half moa. That out of a 6.25 pound rifle with a #2 hart off bipods. The buck at 530 I am very proud of as that was prone with no sling or bipod, just had time to range, dial and shoot.

Excellent! Thanks for the info.

Great stuff gents...thanks for taking me to school I appreciate it

The 243 is a wonderous 550yd+ chambering.

550yds is pretty close in................

Stick,

What are you loading in the 243 to reach out?

105 A-Max.

Their .505BC is real,as are the terminal affects. Rather sumptin'................

Any other load and rifle data?

I'm looking for a long range deer load....

You're looking for loads for an existing platform,or are mulling a new rifle to play with?......................

new rifle, new cartridge, starting from the bottom

Here's how I look at schitt.

1) How much am I gonna HONESTLY shoot it and at what?
2) What will it do,that I can't already?
3) What bullet is gonna do me the most favors?
4) How far am I gonna stretch her out?

Then I sorta roll that around and choose the case capacity/COAL/mag constraints/twist rate which are gonna toss me the most cookies. It's often difficult to not go nuts and paint yourself onto a corner with a Niche Rifle...when with a little more clear thought,you coulda had a Utility Rifle. Niche'rs don't see near the use,that Utilitarian tools do.

The boolit is far more important than the chambering,but some chamberings bolster inherent virtues that others can't/won't/don't. COAL being the first of those things.

Because I largely have a few of everything,7mm's horn me up most,in the Utility Bloodspill Department. Great things are easily arranged and with modest recoil,modest propellant appetites and modest loot...none of which pizz me off.

Heavy stuff don't get shot as much as midweight or light stuff,because they are simply more nichely by design. It is a common misconception to ascribe weight as extrapolating to accuracy,which really isn't the case. Good triggers are a great mass equalizer.

So kinda touching upon all these things,a vanilla 280 is an absolute MONSTER,especially in a 700(as they are an H&H length receiver). Shooting is something I enjoy,so the 280AI appeals more to me personally,but in actuality,you aren't gonna do something with one,that you'll not the other.

The Faux Ti or Halibut Theme,are the moneymakers and define utility. Great handling,balance and portability are easily arranged,while toting incredible capability at the same time. The upside being,there ain't no downside.

I'd be leaning Classic,nudged inlet,Decelerator,midweight fill,flushcups,ADL and gelcoat. Tube would be a short shanked #2 at 22",1-9" and 3-grooved. LW's wearing a 3.5-10x M1 LR with a CH of clearance and Re-22 fueled 162A-Max it's express diet.

Though there's lotsa ways to skin that cat...and I've generally got a 1st Gen Ti 7-08 in my mitts..............

That's a good post.

Have yet to make a bad one.

Them is purty good "odds".................

Whatever you say..... lol...

Your best contribution is going to be silence,followed by the hurried pace to take notes...................

Of course BS. We're sorry. I mean is there really anything else? BS has always been BS...ehhh?

The 105 is better as the range grows, my 6BR #1 Ruger took 3 WT:

Head shot 45 yds
Spine approx. 200 yds
Double Lung - exited, 400, at edge of a field that had been LRF

First two bullets blew, hence why I shot where I did.

Bullet never exited a yote around 60 yds broadside, but DRT, as several other animals, never lost one hit.

No doubt many 243s are 10 twisted, not enough, some around 9 like 6mms, and MAY work, have to try, if not I'd use a custom 8. The 162 should work as far as most can hit vitals. It would be my bullet of choice in 7mm on deer, bou, and similar. Elk, I'd avoid bone.

DW, everytime I thought of a 6.5/06, it just seemed a tougher way to duplicate 270 speeds, and perhaps needing a longer bbl so I concur. No doubt fine bullet choices in the 6.5, but I'd likely run a 264 if I needed more than a 270, if not just a 270 WSM. For how I hunt, I just cannot justify the extra powder/blast and recoil, let alone bbl wear, esp. when considering a custom tube.

Stick, what's your 7/08 getting? 22"?

Moose, maybe I missed it, but is your CDS a 3-10?

Yep, got 3 of the 3.5-10 CDS and will add another. For me and what I built it for, the 6.5-06 has been great though the 270 Winchester would do the same. I have some 160 Woodleighs loaded up and am anxious to see how they run. If well, I'll run this rig on elk as well.

Not a lot...that much can be lost in the group size alone...mmmmm

Doubt it all would matter much to a deer.....hit well, he'd be dead in either case.

'yote,

Cyber hanky to you and if you take exception please elaborate and I'll take the time requisite tune you up.

Let's make it a Coupla Dog Dare...................

We all gun the 105's in 243/243AI's. Have yet to see a distance(near or far),where it weren't amazing. My 1-10" 6AI stabilizes them fine,but 9" is where it's at.

The 162 is better today,than ever. I like to catch bone with them,whether at 7-08 launch speeds(2700fps) or 7WSM(3150fps).

Never was a .264" guy,but their projectiles are getting much more better,as BC's go. They useta just be long,of huge bearing surface and hard to drive,while wearing modest BC's. That's changing,which is good for them of the 6.5 Affliction.

The 105 and 162 rate building rifles around.............

Are you talking X bullets? Then yes.

Late-I've worked quite a bit with both, the biggest diff will be the driver. Not enough diff tween the two to tilt it one way or another for me.

If you wish to work with a cat go 6.5 if you're in a more simple mode go 270.

Dober

6.5's in general and the X fell into a similar trap................

If this post was a sticky, there would be a lot less questions in the custom/wildcat threads.... Great Post.

Well, I know you don't like Berger, so I guess that leaves
Scenars, Amaxs and Swift S2's then. That's not to bad.

I'm driving 130 Swifts .571 at 3,150 out of a 284 case.
Shooting out to 950y, they are flying flatter than what their BC says.

All of them recent...which remains the point....................

Oh Jeezus...you best keep a case of Midol and a slingshot handy,in order to force feed all the whining and cramping,that's gonna arise around you.

If you ain't a good shot with one already,you WILL be after that....................(grin)

6.5 or 270?

6.5..................

Alot of speed in that 6.5/284, hear those SSIIs can be fickle, but when they shoot well, they are good on impact.

Stick, you don't like the 6.5 140 Amax?

I'm getting PM's on what I am loading in the 6.5-284 so I'll post it here.

Winchester 284 case necked down.
Then worked through a K&M neck mandrel that irons out the ID of the neck. This really cuts down ES big time.
Wincheter primer.
RS Magnum powder 61.0 grains.

Everyone keeps telling that light rifles with #1 barrels can't shoot and short actions can't use the 284 case.
A Wyatts does help though with the longer 6.5 bullets.




Ramshot load guide suggest 62.0 grains of Magnum with a 140 grain bullet. I'm loading 61.0 grains with a 130 grain bullet so I should be fine pressure wise.
COAL is 2.900
Barrel length, 25"

140 Berger VLD's shoot at 3,050 with 50 grains of RL17.

I've yet to break 3000 fps with a 6.5-06 26" barrel I bought of a fire member but just to chew over,
listed below are some numbers.

120 A max 52 grs H4831 @ 2918 fps.
140 Nosler Match 48 grs Hybrid @ 2877.
140 Nosler Match 45 grs H4350 @2751.
140 Sierra GK 48 grs Hybrid @ 2855.
140 Sierra GK 45 grs H4350 @ 2780.

130 VLD 49 grs Hybrid @ 2975.
130 VLD 47 grs H4350 @ 2886.

I was initially excited over the Hybrid numbers by Hodgdon but after 2 lb's have come to realise it's capabilities, very heat sensitive and I never got good groups at max loadings but a good powder in a cool chamber.
What I settled on is 48.grs behind a cheap flat based 129 gr Hdy. With a 200yd zero and the.300 mag elevation turret on the MK.4 Leupold it tracks perfectly out to 500 yds and on the 2 occasions I shot 700 yds it only needed two more clicks. a small price to pay.
If I had to do it all over again I'd probably go the .270.
My buddy shoots the 135 SMK with a 28" Kreiger and is very hard to beat.

SU35

Let me be the first to say I want to buy that rifle when you tire of it.

You heard it here first.....

Buy em, build em, shoot em, kill with them,

Sell em....

SU35, have you posted more details and pics of that rifle somewhere? I'd like to see and read more on it, very nice. Obviously paying attention to details has allowed you to capitalize fully upon it's potential.

Also, notice WW brass, do you sort, and do you feel Lapua/Norma are a waste? Do understand WW mfg. good brass.

65BR,

Only here at the Campfire have I posted on this rifle.

I bought the WW brass as I was reading where the guys who were winning matches were snatching up "boxed"284 brass.
Not the bulk stuff. I found 200 pcs of it and bought them all.
Those 1000 yard winners were right.

I don't sort the brass and I DO feel that Lapua/Norma is NOT a waste.
That's great stuff. I've used the Lapua 243 necked upfor my 260 for great accuracy and the Norma brass for my 300 WSM.

I just happened to find the boxed 284 win brass.



http://www.6mmbr.com/gunweek044.html

This advise has transformed my ES for my loads.

Thanks SU, gave me a reason to re-read that in more detail, which obviously is giving you great results. Bore life has kept me out of that round, but I guess you have to pay to play as they say. For a hunting rifle, a bbl could last a long time.

Thanks for the info.

cant be sure but it seems most of the LR guys running the 6.5x284 found the happy spot for their 140's around 2950.. seems that would be where i would start comparing apples...

seems sd and bc would be deciding factors.. hence the 6.5 wins.....

JMO

woofer

Woof-not sure how long of tubes the LR guys are running but I spect the're 26-27 or so. My experience with the 6.5/06 has been mainly with 23-24" barrels and almost without exception 2850 was a good sane speed for pressures and gave good accuracy as well.

One of my buds did build one with 26" and he could get it to 3K but could never get accuracy with it so he dropped back to the 29ish range and then it perked again.

I used a load of R19 and a 129 Horn, it shot well and ran at 3100. Killed well did everything pretty much like my old .270, go figure eh...grin

Side note, I've seen more popped primers over the years out of the 6.5/06 than all other rounds put together. I think the long bearing surface and the fact that some people just gotta try to get a bullet to a certain speed has a lot to do with this.

Just my comments, but I feel the 6.5's are great for the 500-1K game. But, sub 500 and the 280,270, and or 06 will do the same thing.

Just the way I've seen it.

Chao Po Ahora

Dober

Mark, I tend to agree. My best accuracy out of a 24.5" barrel has been 2875 with a 140. Using RL22 and 140 Berger has been quite nice.

If the wind ever dies down enough, I have a ladder to shoot using H1000 and 160 Woodleighs more for grins than anything. That one has a bc of .509 and I have elk plans for it if it can be tuned up in my rifle.

I'll try to post results once I get that done.

Anyone want to share their fav load for the 140 accubond in the 270 win?

63 grains of H-1000, Federal 210 primer in Winchester cases

Seems to me the advantage the 6.5 has is the 140gr VLD. If this bullet is not your cup of tea then everything else is a wash. No bad choice between the two.

Either one will to a great job.

The 6.5 140gr VLD might just be the best bullet in the world. Right now I am kinda a fan.

Yup the 140gr vld shoots very well. I sent a few down range today from my 6.5WSM. My respect for the 6.5 is growing.

I have never seen a bull elk shoulder that could shrugged one off at any range from point blank to 1100yds. Makes a guy think about things???

Does not make me think too much, I am firm beleiver in the bergers. They just kill stuff and they usually shoot the best in my rifles. Thanks for the first hand info on the 6.5s.

Nothing like seeing personal results.

But, it has me thinking that if the 264 can kill out to 1100 then the 6.5-284 should be able to out to a 1000.

....With only 50 grains of powder.....that's 15 to 20 grains less recoil than the 264.


Curios John, How does the 7mm Rem mag 180 VLD compare to the 264 win mag 140 VLD at those distances?

This kind of talk is ruining my whole 160 Woodleigh experiment. I will say the berger has been quite emphatic on mountain goat and antelope which was really no surprise.

Moose, just how far do you really plan on shooting an elk?

Never had to shoot one past 400 yards and actually tend to hunt them in thicker stuff. So if a sharper shot angle presented itself I would prefer to be able to take that versus shooting an extra 100 yards. Only have deer tags left this year so mainly shooting, supporting the shooting industry and having fun for the next 10 months.

John has me looking up 140 berger loads for our 260 even though I have hundreds of accubonds loaded up. Good stuff to do during the upcoming winter.

Just think if you hit a small tree or limb enroute just in front of your elk.....what bullet has the best chance? Maybe a small chance, but I'd not want a 'vld' type bullet. Missed a Mulie my first shot once in CO, 139 SP hit a small sapling a few yds in front of the deer, never saw it in my 4x. Lucky for me he stayed after the shot while the dozen or so does in front of him left. Neck shot dropped him, range around 110 paces.

Not ragging the Bergers, but just saying, your 160 is a good choice for what/how you are hunting IMO. A tougher bullet may just be preferably in a worst case scenario.

I am pretty positive that my selection of bullets WILL NEVER include this as part of the criteria...

FWIW, Mule Deer has reported on brush deflection and IIRC pointy bullets did better than conventional "brush buster" shapes/weights.

It's not the deflection that's the problem, so much as the VLD turning to pepper by the time it exits the tree and hits the animal

Still wouldn't worry me. Like I said, impacts with brush aren't a decision criteria for me.

JS, that's what I meant to say! Pointer, everybody hunts different types of terrain, yours may be more open. No doubt most any bullet will want to deflect, but if hit square in the middle of something, a tougher bullet may well go right thru and exit intact well enough to kill. Other's won't fare as well.

No doubt, if at all possible, you never want to hit anything enroute to your game. It's just one of many 'possibilities' that occasionally happens.

I get it. Still won't pick a bullet based on that criteria, which is not the same as saying my bullet choices won't meet that criteria.

Extending that logic, a smaller cased 6.5 won't work as well as my .338. Right?

Depends on many things, smaller frontal area helps penetration, so 'like' constructed bullets in 6.5 and 338 w/similar SD may not be that different in penetration. Think in terms of a .177 vs. 22 cal airgun pellet....

No doubt in open terrain on extra long shots, BC is important, but should not be the only dimension used to judge a bullet's worth for ALL situations IMO.

Okay, you win the mental masterbation contest. You make me think you think too much about stuff that dont need much thinking.

My whole point is many think the heavy RN bullets wont work at common ranges, reserving them for brush country only, but I feel they have their place, as many other bullet designs. If I were shooting ultra long shots in open country, Bergers and Amax's would be top picks, as well as Accubonds.

If you use Bergers in all situations, I am confident you do well and know where to shoot. It's a subjective choice that I pick and choose certain bullets for various applications. Others just use one and stick w/it.

I'd no more want to shoot an animal w/a VLD type bullet at 50 yds at Magnum velocities in the shoulder or from a rear angle, than I would want to poke one w/a heavy roundnose at 700 yds.

No doubt, much is minutia, when one places their shot thru vitals. Many ways to accomplish that objective.

You are starting to make my eyes hurt.

Hunt more ballistic gack less...

Dober

"Brush busting" is yet another grandiose Myth,fueled by them that don't shoot.....................

I shot a 210 berger through a 8 inch thick pine tree at 750ish yards just to see what it would do, me thinks it would shoot through a sapling fairly well, unless you cant spot small trees through a 4x scope.

I've familiarity with both brush and boolits.

Center-punching timber is an issue seperate and it assuredly isn't unknown to me........................

If a Berger Hunting VLD penetrates 2-3 inches BEFORE expanding, I would think it would work better penetrating "sapling" than a RN bullet designed to expand on contact.

Just saying.....