Home Forums Lever Action Central Big Bore Levers 1895 Winchester .405

mikem,

The 45-70 with its +P type loadings will shoot just as flat as the above with 350 grain loadings and reach out at 200 yards easy with the 400 grain class bullet loadings. It offers even more power than either the 444 Marlin or 405 Win loadings.

rossi

Mike if you wound a 350 gr bullet up in the 45-70 to 2000 with a 100 yd zero its 12.6 inches low at 200 yds vel 1254 fps and energy of 1222. The 300 gr spitzer from the 405 factory loaded at 2200 fps with a 100 yd zero is 8.3 in low at 200 1610 fps and 1727 energy.
Like I stated before my 405 shoots its tightest groups ( 1inch 4shot) with the 300 gr bullets at 2300-2350. I've pushed it beyond 2400 but accuracy dropped off

Any Idea what pressure (approximate) you are at with this load? I can't afford the North fork bullet so am trying to get the Hornady 300FP & Mt. Baldy 300 LFN-GC to shoot. I am using, H-4895, VARGET, & IMR-3031. Mainly because I have it on hand. Low extreme deviation & SD but can't seem to get a good group. Velocity is 2220 to 2250.
Listed pressure is maxed @ 45000. 30/06 is higher pressure so can I get a little more than 45000 from this action with the 405?

Rossi,

I don't think that the advantage is "Mythical". It is published in the Hodgdon manual. I cited the load which I found to be the best for the 444. Most manuals show less than 2000 FPS.

Now, anyone can load anything they want in a 444 or a 405. It seems that you want to compare hot handloads with factory loads or published loads.

http://www.hodgdon.com/data/rifle/405win.php

http://www.hodgdon.com/data/rifle/444mar.php

Compare these tables. They may not be 444/375 experts so their loads are not as warm on either side.

Charlie as near as I can figure it's under 50k. I worked the loads up from data Rick Jamison pressure tested in a couple of different articles in Shooting Time a few years back. A new manufactured 95 should be good for alot more pressure than you can get out of a 405 using slower powders as they did chamber it in the 270 and a couple of the numbers Zhat rebarrels them to run close to 60k.
I found that powders between 4895 and 4350 generaly work best in my rifle. Reloder 12 is its favorite, I'm down to a pound and a half of that stuff now, so I've been trying Rx 15. 4320 and 4064 should work well also.
Your observation about the low deviation is the same thing I've noticed in my rifle.

I have been using a 450 Marlin with a lot of success. It is a 200 yard caribou rifle and hits like a sledge hammer. 45-70 loaded up is capable of the same. At longer ranges the 405 is more capable but with peep sights I think 200 yards is still a good limit for it.

My opinion is that the 405 is more capable than the 444 even in the Big Bore 94. The Big Bore and the Marlin are capable of 50,000psi only in cartridges that Marlin or WIN rates at 50000 like the 307/356. In a 444 or 450 you are limited to 43000psi and I don't care what Pako says.

In tests with high intensity pistol cartridges (454) at 60000psi reported over at another board the Marlin failed first after less than 20 rounds, the Big Bore 94 let go next before an older non angle eject regular 94. The engineers at Win removed metal from the receiver to facilitate angle ejection and weakened the action. The 92 Win was stronger but still failed. The strongest levers were the 1886 and 71 winchesters. While the 1895 was not tested given that it was designed for 30-06 and has been chambered in 270 I'd say it is a very safe 50,000psi design. As the 405 is thinner than the 30-06 and you have more barrel diameter to work with it is a much better 50000psi rig than a Marlin or BigBore.

Oh yeah..that being said the 1895 looks as handy as a fence post. How does it handle?

North61 I think its a lot nicer to carry than the marlin's with that growth thingy on the bottom of the action the lever is bolted to. I like the way the 95 handles . The longer lever throw takes a bit of getting used to.

Charlie I forgot to mention that I use very little crimp on the jacketed bullets, and just enough with cast to straighten the flair out.

A spirited exchange to say the least....

I have used my Model 95 (.30-06 ) for pretty much eveything from duiker to eland. I consider it to be as tough and reliable as any of my bolt guns. It has a Williams receiver sight and, for me personally, is deadly accurate. It is extremely well balanced and easy to carry. I have occasionally carried it for days on end in the bush, 12 hours or more each day. Compared with my 303, 416 and even my 243, it is a real pleasure.

I had a 444S Marlin some years ago. I shot the heck out of it, but I never took it hunting. I liked the action, but I found that it did not shoot as well as the 95. With a magazine full of ammo, it was noticably more front-heavy, and the point of balance would change as the magazine emptied.

There is also something I discovered that's worth pointing out about the 444S. It would not cycle stout loads with heavier bullets. The loads were well within pressure limits, but the OAL was too large and they would get hung up on the little elevator behind the loading gate.

I personally think the Model 95 is an excellent rifle, and in 405 Winchester would be an great choice for any heavy game in the US and most in Africa.

Nyati I'm with you those 95's are a pleasure to carry and shoot.
Is your 06 one of the new made ones or one of the originals?

I have one of the new ones. Very happy with it.

The first one I shot was an original chambered in .30-03, if you can believe it! From that moment, I had to have one.

I'm reall happy with my 405, wanted one for a many years, had just about decided to order a Ruger no1 when I found this one.
I put one of the Lyman 38 repro sights on it. Are you using the factory sights?

I set mine up from day-one with a decelerator pad and a Williams receiver site (alot like your Lyman, I suspect). The first one I shot had no pad at all, and had sharp edges on the butt plate. A set-up that would hurt on a 22 LR! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/shocked.gif" alt="" />

I'm not sure why, but I can shoot the 95 more accurately from the shoulder than any other rifle I've ever held. I don't
know why but I don't really care! It's just a geat fitting rifle for me. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

By the way, where did you find the Lyman 38 repro sight? I'd like to check them out.

I shot mine for a while with the factory peice of potmetal butt plate, but soon realized that if I was going to do much with it something had to change. I put a limbsaver on and now its more on par with 308 in recoil.
I got my 38 type sight from Buffalo Arms. Its pretty spendy and requires a metric screw to be manufactured for the front, but I'm happy with it.
I like the shootability of the 95 from all the field positions. Despite whats been said about it over the years , I find it quite comfortable to carry. I did fit mine with a barrel band sling swivel and a horse sling from Browning.

Wow, that Lyman sight is nice but very pricey! I have seen the original on the Model 95s at gun shows. If memory serves me, it was very popular on the 405s. It would be nice to have one of those, but I'm pretty happy with the Williams sight.

We are definitely of one mind on the practical value of the Winchester Model 95. Dependable, strong, comfortable to carry, accurate and faster than a bolt for followup shots. I've made some amazing shots from a variety of field positions.

I like that 38 type sight but it is (gulp) pricey. Funny thing about it I've seen a few 95's around with the original 38 sight on em for not a heck of a lot more than the repro from Buffalo.
I'm thinking I'ld like to give the 35 winchester in a 95 a whirl just for fun. But I like my 405 so much I'ld feel like I was cheating on it if I got another one. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Both the .444 and .405 are crank calibers, so get the rifle you like. I own an original 24-inch barrel .444 Marlin and love it.
A normal load for a 300-gr XTP is 2000 fps, but it can push them to 2200, or a 270-gr Gold Dot to 2300+.

The 1895 Winchester is actually a pretty slick rifle.
I know a few folks who own vintage ones in .30-06 and they are very accurate. They are no muzzle heavy than my Marlin, and less so than an 1886 Winchester or 1885 Browning.

Handle the two rifles you are actually considering. If possible, shoot both of them. Buy the one you like. There is not a dime's difference in the ballistics or lethality of the two cartridges.

Greetings and hello to all my fellow gunners:)
Having said that, I MUST make some corrections re: the Winchester 1895.
IT IS PURE P_ _ _ Y! (ok, here's a hint for those driving in the mentally slow lane, 'meow'):)
When I first saw this levergun on the rack I thought it was the oddest gun I had ever seen. Something brought me back to the gun store for a second look. Hmm, the balance, fit and feel are superb, strange looking magazine though. This is reputed to be the strongest levergun made, not to mention the only (that I know of) one I can shoot pointed bullets (compared to the standard tube feed levergun that cannot).
I bought it. Very accurate in 30-06, I have a rear peep that makes it very sweet, I have loaded everything from 95 gr to 200 gr. bullets with mostly excellent results. I have come to love the looks of this gun, and recently bought another in .405 for bear. While ammunition choices are limited, the reloader at least now has access to brass and bullets which previously were difficult at best to find.
The .405 has taken dangerous game all over the world (all the African big 5), so I feel the caliber is up to snuff for all N. American species (within range limitations), especially as a handloader. (a 300 gr. softnose at 2200+ FPS aint no sissy!)

Catch you later, and hope to hear from other shooters who own an 1895 (plus the ones that don't): zeN <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

Zen if you haven't already you'll want to explore powders from 4895-4350 burnrates with the 300 gr bullets in your 405. Mine has a real fondness for reloder 12, but it's getting harder to find.

These days, those those who hold function over glamour are a rare breed. But rest assured, Zen, you are in good company. The Model 95 may be ungainly to some, but she is an absolute beauty to me. Carries like a dream, accurate, well balanced and very ergonomic. I like mine so much it has three interchangeable barrels!

You made the right choice. Best of luck with the .405