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Originally Posted by WGM
DJ ... Remington is NOT responsible for supplying you a trigger with a pull weight of your satisfaction ... they are, however, responsible for having the rifle set up in such a manner that, w/out any adjustment out of the box, should function as it was designed to ...

Granted, that might mean a 7# trigger, but if that's what it takes to pass the function tests - and that's how it's set from the factory - then Remington has done their job. Whether or not you consider the trigger to be a "good trigger" is a completely different story, and has nothing to do with Remington's culpability.

That said, you mention above that the triggers were set to 3# ... Is this something you verified with a pull weight gauge on the triggers as they were set by Remington, straight out of the box? And they were ALL exactly set to 3#? Or did you (or someone else) adjust the triggers to 3# and THEN perform your function tests?


The sear reset test I did were again with the old model triggers - I haven't tried it yet with the newer model, and they were with off the shelf unmodified in any way triggers. More than half of them failed the simple test straight from the factory, unmodified in any way and at whatever trigger weight they came at (I didn't test the weight).

As far as triggers with 2-3lb weight go I have a Lyman digital trigger guage and I usually use the average of 5-10 pulls to measure pull weight. I've worked with double digits of Old model remington triggers to base my opinions on i.e. more than 10 less than 100 - I forget the exact count.

The new trigger might fare better OTB, that's why I try and specifically mention that they were older model triggers, however since they still don't block the striker like M-70 r M-77 triggers I still consider the design inferior. I consider Sako M-75 and M-85 triggers far superior not only because they have much better quality control but also because they are more difficult to screw up by normal bubba's than the older model 700 triggers were. I always specify the older M-700 triggers because I haven't worked with one of the newer ones yet. I hope that I'm being fair and accurate......................................dj


Remember this is all supposed to be for fun.......................
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DJ ... I think you are being fair and objective ... and what I'm about to say, well, I hope you don't consider it a knock on your credibility, as that's not what I'm trying to do ...

but simply said, I can't accept the fact that "more than half" of them failed the sear reset test - assuming the test was done properly. I say that only because I've messed with quite a few of the old-style (Rem-Walker) triggers and haven't had any of them fail that test unless I adjusted them down to a pull weight and/or a small enough sear engagement that they would fail.

I've got rifles in my safe wearing the old-style triggers that are set down "below" how they were issued from the factory, and I can't get them to fail in any way with any of the prescribed common "functionality tests" ... Obviously this is a simple matter of YMMV being different than mine.

As for the "inferior safety design", I don't argue with anyone that says a safety that locks the firing pin is better ... however, I never have put enough trust into any mechanical safety to care. As previously stated, I don't go hot until (practically speaking) it's time to fire ... therefore, I really don't need a safety at all, under any circumstances.

Lastly ... the new X-Mark Pro trigger has eliminated the floating connector AND has a safety that blocks the firing mechanism of the trigger assembly (unlike the older style safety) ... that's not the same as directly blocking the firing pin, but it does offer a much improved safety design, for those who are concerned about it.


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Originally Posted by dubePA
� WTH was the German minister's name who coined that "When they came for the Jews" thing?

Friedrich Gustav Emil Martin Niem�ller (14 January 1892 � 6 March 1984)


"Good enough" isn't.

Always take your responsibilities seriously but never yourself.



















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The test I did isn't hard to repeat although you might not find as many older models now that the new one is out.

Of course make sure that the gun is unloaded!...

Then pull the trigger to drop the striker.

with slight forward pressure work the bolt straight up and down to reset the sear.

You'll be surprise at how many brand-spankin new M-700's fail this test!

The primary extraction can is on the bolt handle and gets peened over due to the soft pot-metal used in the bolt handle.

Try it for yourself and see how it turns out for you. The trigger should reset EVERY time the bolt is worked whether it's pulled rearwards or not.....................................DJ


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Most of mine fail that test too ... But I can't see how that is a relevant test in any way.


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Originally Posted by WGM
Most of mine fail that test too ... But I can't see how that is a relevant test in any way.


I think that if you think about it long enough you'll see why.

Look at the root of your bolt handles where the primary extraction cam works and see where they are starting to peen over.

Better quality materials and/or heat treatment would cure this.

Not an insurmountable issue, but should it really be there?...................DJ


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[quote=djpaintless}

The primary extraction can is on the bolt handle and gets peened over due to the soft pot-metal used in the bolt handle.

[/quote]


Pot metal bolt handles?

WTF PLANET are you on?

Those bolt handles are made from steel.

Ask any 'smith who turns them for aftermarket tactical bolt knobs.

They damn sure are not "pot metal".








Last edited by jim62; 10/29/10.

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"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.."- Teddy Roosevelt
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Originally Posted by jim62
Originally Posted by djpaintless


The primary extraction can is on the bolt handle and gets peened over due to the soft pot-metal used in the bolt handle.




Pot metal bolt handles?

WTF PLANET are you on?

Those bolt handles are made from steel.




I'm from a planet where people know the difference between different grades of steel, MIM injection molded vs forged parts, welded vs brazed, splined vs press fit.

Have you actually checked a few M700 bolt handles before you made this post? Do you actually think that all steel is the same?........................................DJ


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Originally Posted by djpaintless
Originally Posted by jim62
Originally Posted by djpaintless


The primary extraction can is on the bolt handle and gets peened over due to the soft pot-metal used in the bolt handle.




Pot metal bolt handles?

WTF PLANET are you on?

Those bolt handles are made from steel.




I'm from a planet where people know the difference between different grades of steel, MIM injection molded vs forged parts, welded vs brazed, splined vs press fit.

Have you actually checked a few M700 bolt handles before you made this post? Do you actually think that all steel is the same?........................................DJ


DJ,

Well, at least I know what "pot metal" actually is- you sure as hell don't seem to really have a clue, given how loosely you use the term.

I have owned Remington m700s for over 30 years. I have examined plenty of Remington m700 bolts.

I have both a m75 Sako and a 2007 made Remington m700 in the safe right now. No "peening" of the cocking cam on the bolt on either gun.

And both have been shot quite a bit.

Sorry.

And, I have NEVER heard of ONE topflight gunsmith in the US who works on m700s EVER bitch about "soft" M700 bolt handle cocking cams either.




















To all gunmaker critics-
"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.."- Teddy Roosevelt
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DJ ... re: the sear-return test ...

While I know what you mean about "should it happen?", I still can't see how that is relevant in any way. First off, we're talking about the relationship of the cocking piece to the sear - which means we're not talking about the trigger's function - at least not internally.

Failing the sear-return test simply means that the cocking piece has not moved far back enough to clear the sear, which means the sear is still pressed down, which means that the trigger cannot return into full battery because it's being blocked by the dropped sear.

Further, since you are going to HAVE TO move the bolt back to either eject a spent case, and/or chamber a new round, the fact that the sear is blocked from popping back up unless you work the bolt is irrelevant, simply because this is something you're going to have to do. And, since the bolt, camming, cocking piece, sear, and trigger all work perfectly after the bolt is cycled, your assertion that the "sear return test" means something goes out the window.

Look, if you want to nit-pick the Rem700, go ahead ... I'm sure you can find some things that could be improved ... but quite frankly, I think that anyone can do that with just about any production rifle out there.


When it all comes down to it, with the exception of a very small potential for failure with the Rem-Walker trigger's connector, a properly adjusted and "built to spec" Remington rifle is as fine a production rifle as there is ... it's proven itself as well as any other production rifle out there. Whether you prefer CRF, Mauser style actions, 3-position safeties, etc. is a completely different story ... but if the Remington rifles didn't work so well - considering they have traditionally been priced with most other production rifles, they wouldn't be considered "the most popular", or at least near the top of the list for so long ...


-WGM-
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I have seen two ND, one with a M700 and one with a M70, both occurred on the bench by someone who went to release the safety when their finger was slightly inside the trigger guard. When the thumb went forward to release the trigger, the motion caused the finger in the guard to also move and voila!, "it went off when I released the safety!" Not saying that explains the issue, but I bet some of these failures are more like ND than failures.

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I'm assuming that "ND" means "Negligent Discharge", which would be EXACTLY what's happening if someone has their finger on the trigger when releasing the safety - which can happen on ANY rifle.


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Originally Posted by Steelhead
The issue isn't the trigger, the issue is the stupid [bleep] people and the JO types afraid of eating tag soup.



We talked about this at camp after not seeing anything but button bucks and does yesterday...today I am on granddaughter birthday duty...

None of us could imagine pointing a gun even in the general direction of anyone, especially if you were chambering a cartridge, fooling with the safety, or going any near the trigger. These things just don't make sense to me. We don't hunt with fools like this, nor fools that drink when hunting and/or shooting. Put a cartridge in the chamber when your sitting in your tree stand by yourself away from everyone. In this way if your Remington bolt gun shoots by itself, you just ruin your hunt, then maybe not deer are stupid.

My bet is that its easier to blame someone else for your personal fool mistake in which you just killed someone than take the responsibility for it...but this is 2010 America a land of puszies, no integrity and no honesty.


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Wow!, My second post since I joined! I am just going to mention what I have and ain't going to change for the reason I explain. I have a 700 of 70's or 80's vintage in 375 H&H and it is fitted with a NULA two position 3 function safety. It has the old bolt lock, which I love, and you can open the bolt by pressing down on the safety which disengages the bolt lock and allows the bolt to be opened. I checked with NULA and they provide Timney triggers with their three function safety or Jewel triggers if requested. I looked at the timney triggers and they state you cannot use the old safety on any of their triggers so I am assuming (possibly wrong) that if I bought a Timney trigger I would no longer be able to use my NULA safety, which I want, and besides, I'm happy with my present trigger as is. I guess I won't change my trigger until someone offers a trigger with a NULA safety and that's that. Chris

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Wow!, My second post since I joined! I am just going to mention what I have and ain't going to change for the reason I explain. I have a 700 of 70's or 80's vintage in 375 H&H and it is fitted with a NULA two position 3 function safety. It has the old bolt lock, which I love, and you can open the bolt by pressing down on the safety which disengages the bolt lock and allows the bolt to be opened. I checked with NULA and they provide Timney triggers with their three function safety or Jewel triggers if requested. I looked at the timney triggers and they state you cannot use the old safety on any of their triggers so I am assuming (possibly wrong) that if I bought a Timney trigger I would no longer be able to use my NULA safety, which I want, and besides, I'm happy with my present trigger as is. I guess I won't change my trigger until someone offers a trigger with a NULA safety and that's that. Also, I once had an old Mauser that would override the sear when jarred hard and it didn't matter whether the safety was on or not ( I replaced with a Timney trigger and new striker), so I guess any bolt action which is strker fired could theoretically fail given the right circumstances. Chris

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