24hourcampfire.com
24hourcampfire.com
Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Hop To
Joined: Apr 2009
Posts: 835
A
Campfire Regular
OP Offline
Campfire Regular
A
Joined: Apr 2009
Posts: 835
Hi all,

I realize the old .303 British might not be a hugely prevalent cartridge in the US (most of the 24hcf members residence), but I am curious to know if anyone out there has heard of, seen/used, toyed with the idea, or actually gone and done it, and created a wildcat based on the .303 British case being necked down to .308 diameter.
I realize this may seem a bit redundant with the difference between the two projectile sizes (.311 vs .308) being very minor, but there does appear to be a greater selection of projectile types and weights available in .308 calibre.

Just for clarification, yes this idea is also in conjunction with having a suitable .308 barrel reamed to a wildcat chamber of 308-303 (308 British???), and not just firing a .308 projectile down a .303 (.311) barrel.

My searches for such a wildcat on the net have so far been fruitless. Any one out there with knowledge or opinions on such a venture would be greatly appreciated.

Cheers,
Aussielad.

BP-B2

Joined: Sep 2002
Posts: 2,952
Campfire Regular
Offline
Campfire Regular
Joined: Sep 2002
Posts: 2,952
Think you will find it under a gunsmith named Epps in Canada who did a lot of 303 wildcats. He published a book on it.

BH

Joined: May 2004
Posts: 55,887
Campfire Kahuna
Offline
Campfire Kahuna
Joined: May 2004
Posts: 55,887
Don't recall the specifics but PO Ackley did a bunch of tinkering with the .303...or somebody did during his era. I've got one of his books hiding somewhere, will see what I can find for you. One I have recollection of was a .224 and another was for the .257 bore.

FWIW, you can probably do anything with the .303 that you can do with the .30-06, bigger or smaller. I'd also think that if you're using an Enfield for the platform you might want to take a close look at feed geometry before leaping off the cliff.


I am..........disturbed.

Concerning the difference between man and the jackass: some observers hold that there isn't any. But this wrongs the jackass. -Twain


Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 969
L
Campfire Regular
Offline
Campfire Regular
L
Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 969
I have been searching for info on the 257 x 303 and my searches have come up dry as well. Thought it would make a neat single shot round for an Encore.

shortgun

Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 5,586
bcp Offline
Campfire Tracker
Offline
Campfire Tracker
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 5,586
I think in the US most who would want a 30 caliber rimmed cartridge about the size of the 303 would choose a 30-40 Krag instead of the 30-303. The Krag has a slightly shorter body and a little longer neck than the 303.

The 25 Krag used to be a popular wildcat.

Compare measurements here.
http://stevespages.com/page8d.htm


Bruce

IC B2

Joined: Apr 2004
Posts: 61,130
V
Campfire Kahuna
Offline
Campfire Kahuna
V
Joined: Apr 2004
Posts: 61,130
Steve Redgwell has a couple books out on .303s, including wildcats.

I have them, and I'll be near those books in a couple hours, and have a look-see.

As for the .308" bore, go with the .30-40, as that's essentially what the Krag is.




Joined: May 2004
Posts: 55,887
Campfire Kahuna
Offline
Campfire Kahuna
Joined: May 2004
Posts: 55,887
Aussielad, I just browsed thru Ackley's book(s) "Handbook for shooters and reloaders". Ackley didn't do this himself, in fact all of the .303 wildcats he discusses spring from Australia. Two basic variations listed, one being the simple necking down without further modification and the other being similar to Ackley's improved cartridges, or having blown out cases with sharp 45* shoulder and minimal taper. Fellow named Epps did most of the latter for what it's worth.

The simpler form was referenced in the following calibers:

.22-.303
6mm-303
.25-303
7mm-303

There was no discussion of a .308-303 but I don't see there would be any difficulty putting that together. For your information, the improved versions were primarily intended for the likes of Martini actions while the others were used in Lee Enfield rifles.

Hope that helps.


I am..........disturbed.

Concerning the difference between man and the jackass: some observers hold that there isn't any. But this wrongs the jackass. -Twain


Joined: May 2003
Posts: 31,086
Campfire 'Bwana
Offline
Campfire 'Bwana
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 31,086
The .303 can legitimately be thought of as the "British '06" -- and rightly so. As such, it has probably been necked up, down and sideways, blown out, cut down, reformed and probably baptized to everything a gun nut can imagine.

Most remain unheralded, but you can bet that if you can think of it, so has somebody else. And that other guy tried it.


Cleverly disguised as a responsible adult.

Joined: Apr 2004
Posts: 61,130
V
Campfire Kahuna
Offline
Campfire Kahuna
V
Joined: Apr 2004
Posts: 61,130
Okay, first of all, if you're a .303 British nut, you really NEED Steve Redgwell's books: Shooting and Reloading The 303 British and the 303 Epps and The Accurate Lee Enfield.

Steve's a good guy, and his books are a great source of info on the cartridges and the rifles. Get them here: http://www.303british.com/

As to the .308" version of the .303British, take a look at the .30-40 Krag as compared to the .303 and see what you think.

Here's the .303 British:
[Linked Image]

And, here's the .30-40 Krag:
[Linked Image]

Hmmm....

As to the .257" wildcat off the .303 British, pages 92 and 93 of Redgwell's The Accurate Lee Enfield list the .25/303 British and the .25/303 Epps. The .25/303B will give you performance between the .250 Savage and .257 Roberts, and that's not a bad ballpark to be playing in. The .25/303Epps gets you to .257BobAI levels in the P14 or a good single-shot, and that ain't shabby, either.




Joined: Apr 2009
Posts: 835
A
Campfire Regular
OP Offline
Campfire Regular
A
Joined: Apr 2009
Posts: 835
Hi all, wow, and thanks for all this info.
Sorry for delay in my reply, work has been keeping me very busy lately.

VAnimrod, thanks. Steve Redgwell's books look great, and very informative. They've made my list of gotta gets.

Rocky, I've no doubt that somebody has probably tried the conversion I've alluded to, but they have been quite secretive about it, as I still can't find any reference to it.

DigitalDan, thanks for checking your reference, looks like another book has made "the list".
You are quite right, the 303-22 and 303-25 are quite well heard of over here,with the 303-25 being quite popular.
A lot of converted SMLE's and M17's turn up for sale with this conversion having been done. They are often quite cheap too.

Lonerider, try doing a search on the web for either 303-25 or 303/25. this is how us Aussies tend to list the cartridge. Make sure your search engine isn't just looking within the USA.Hopefully you find what you are looking for.

To all interested in SMLE's, have you seen a book by Ian Skennerton on the history of the Lee Metford and Lee Enfield rifles. It looks like another good read, and I've been hanging out to get my mitts on a copy.

My main reason for these enquiries is due to me inheriting my late Father-in-laws (miss ya John) SMLE No.1 MkIII*.
I'm a bit loathe to actually do anything major to this rifle, as I'm led to believe that it was John's father (Harold) service rifle. Harold was posted in Papua New Guinea during World War Two. The rifle bears the marks of being "sold out of service" on it's stock. Even if it wasn't Harold's actual service rifle, I'm certain it did belong to him, and was passed down to John when Harold passed away, and has now made it's way to me with John's recent passing.

I have taken it up to the range, and the old girl still functions as intended, but time has taken it's toll, and a past lack of maintenance or hard use means that the barrel is very dark and the crown quite pitted. No amount of scrubbing so far seems to be able to remove the crud from the barrel, and Hoppes #9 through the bore will see the patches come out brown, whilst Sweets 7.62 will have them coming out black.
Hopefull with time, TLC, and probably a re-crowning, I can get some sort of accuracy back out of her. Enough to allow me to shoot the service rifle comps at the range anyway.
Last resort though is to have her re-barrelled, as I think the bore may be a bit oversize (haven't slugged it yet) for competitive use with .311/.312 projectiles. Not that I'm expecting to be a major threat for any wins in the comp, but it would be nice to know that the rifle is at least up to par for the job!
It's all probably a moot point, as in order to shoot service rifle, it probably has to be chambered for the original cartridge.

Sorry for the ramble guys, and thanks once again for your input.

Cheers,
Aussielad.



IC B3

Joined: Oct 2009
Posts: 16,718
Campfire Ranger
Offline
Campfire Ranger
Joined: Oct 2009
Posts: 16,718
Fun thread - every word of it!

Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 918
Campfire Regular
Offline
Campfire Regular
Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 918
Your easiest fix would be to re-bore/re-chamber it to a larger caliber. How available are 8mm, .338, or .358 bullets there? Of those 3, 8mm (.323") would be the best for matching the original performance.

Joined: Apr 2009
Posts: 835
A
Campfire Regular
OP Offline
Campfire Regular
A
Joined: Apr 2009
Posts: 835
G'day UncleJake,

I don't think it would be too difficult to obtain 8mm/.323 projectiles over here (never had to yet).
Oddly enough, I've heard of a situation with another SMLE shooter using 32 cal cast projectiles due to having an oversize bore.
A fellow member has suggested the 35 cal re-bore/re-chamber, this would be the 303-35 in Aussie speak, probably the 35-303 in US parlance.
I'm still a bit of a sucker for trying to keep it around the original dimensions, so the 32 cal sounds like a good option, and as you said, would probably be closest to the original performance.
Another option is to try and source an original 303 barrel in better condition. Apparently there are a lot of them floating around from gunsmiths doing the 303-25 conversion, or from the actions being broken down. The trouble is, you might be swapping out one problem for another one.
Will try some handloads soon using Sierra 150gn .311 projectiles, I'll see what I can squeeze out of it with them in the original barrel.
Either way, she's a real pleasure to shoot.
Cheers for now,
Aussielad


Moderated by  RickBin 

Link Copied to Clipboard
YB23

Who's Online Now
756 members (007FJ, 10gaugemag, 10ring1, 160user, 10gaugeman, 02bfishn, 84 invisible), 2,920 guests, and 1,231 robots.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Forum Statistics
Forums81
Topics1,187,704
Posts18,400,064
Members73,820
Most Online11,491
Jul 7th, 2023


 







Fish & Game Departments | Solunar Tables | Mission Statement | Privacy Policy | Contact Us | DMCA
Hunting | Fishing | Camping | Backpacking | Reloading | Campfire Forums | Gear Shop
Copyright © 2000-2024 24hourcampfire.com, Inc. All Rights Reserved.
Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.7.5
(Release build 20201027)
Responsive Width:

PHP: 7.3.33 Page Time: 0.152s Queries: 14 (0.004s) Memory: 0.8563 MB (Peak: 0.9597 MB) Data Comp: Zlib Server Time: 2024-03-29 00:43:01 UTC
Valid HTML 5 and Valid CSS