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Joined: Aug 2004
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Campfire Ranger
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OP
Campfire Ranger
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 28,185 |
They seem like the finest quality, best performing, but year after year lead the list in the most unreliable from Consumer's Report and Edmonds.
BMW, Mercedes, Audi, all far below the Japanese and even GM cars in reliability. Are they pushing technology to hard, too fast, or is it poor workmanship?
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Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 21,317
Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
Joined: Jan 2001
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Unreliable in the sense that they leave you stranded, or in the sense that you have to go to the shop for some annoyance?
My guess would be they globalized and are sourcing parts and labor from Eastern Europe and Asia.
My wife's Mercedes has 170k on the odo, and has been fairly reliable, but the catalytic converters going out at 130k was a major expense. Its replacement will most likely be another mercedes.
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Joined: Apr 2010
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Campfire Regular
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OP, i'm not so sure i believe that.
Last edited by whambasted; 12/07/10.
mercy triumphs over judgement
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Joined: Sep 2006
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Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
Joined: Sep 2006
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Having been with both German & Japanese auto manufacturing, IMO, the basic answer lies in that the Germans focus on "high tech" gadgetry in many cases while the Nipponese focus much more on reliability across the board.
Simple answer to a complicated situation & many exceptions in both cases.
MM
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Joined: Dec 2004
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Campfire Outfitter
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Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Dec 2004
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I use a ford van and have looked at a few ford forums mostly pickups forums and not many complaints.
Got interested in the Sprinter van made by mercedes but the sprinter forum is filled or over run with complaints of poor cheap build quality.
But the sprinter is priced twice the price of an econoline.
The end of democracy, and the defeat of the American Revolution will occur when government falls into the hands of lending institutions and moneyed incorporations.
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Joined: Aug 2004
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Campfire Ranger
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OP
Campfire Ranger
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 28,185 |
OP, i'm not so sure i believe that. Here is the Consumer's report, Edmond mirror it. Consumer's Report.
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Joined: May 2007
Posts: 13,957
Campfire Outfitter
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Campfire Outfitter
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VW has been last or close, on JD Power for years.
Mercedes was near the bottom of that list for a few years as well.
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Campfire Regular
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Campfire Regular
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I never relied on Consumer reports. Just to prove them wrong, I put 175,000 trouble free miles on a 1984 Chevy Citation X-11, 378,000 miles on a 1990 Pontiac 6000STE, and currently, 72,000 miles on a 2005 Pontiac GTO. Consumables -brakes, clutches, etc, are serviced and replaced as needed, but no catastrophic failures. Ya just gotta take care of whatever you have. They are all pretty good nowadays.
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Joined: May 2007
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Campfire Outfitter
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Campfire Outfitter
Joined: May 2007
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I never relied on Consumer reports. Just to prove them wrong, I put 175,000 trouble free miles on a 1984 Chevy Citation X-11, 378,000 miles on a 1990 Pontiac 6000STE, and currently, 72,000 miles on a 2005 Pontiac GTO. Consumables -brakes, clutches, etc, are serviced and replaced as needed, but no catastrophic failures. Ya just gotta take care of whatever you have. They are all pretty good nowadays. CR is a joke for cars. Their data pool is a small fraction of that which JD Power uses.
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Joined: Jan 2004
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Campfire Regular
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Can't say that's been the case for us. Have had an Audi of some sort in the garage for 30 years. First one was a Fox...now have a TT.
"I call that bold talk for a one-eyed fat man." --Robert Duvall.
"Fill your hand, you son-of-a-bitch!" --John Wayne.
~Molɔ̀ːn Labé Skýla~
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Campfire Tracker
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Campfire Tracker
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Consumables -brakes, clutches, etc, are serviced and replaced as needed, but no catastrophic failures. Ya just gotta take care of whatever you have. They are all pretty good nowadays. Why opinions vary so much. There is a difference between a car that needs service "all the time" when actually just needed replacement wear-out components and stringent manufacturers standards, vs. an always down for electrical gremlins, trans issues, sundry design flaws. Surely are european examples of both. People's perception. It's crazy how much shear neglect gf's toyota has absorbed. But, have had three european cars that proved bomb proof with regular maintenance. Who knows; i can tell CR which one I'd rather drive in any event.
Golldammed motion detector lights. A guy can’t even piss off his porch in peace any more.
"Look, I want to help the helpless. It's the clueless I don't give a [bleep] about." - Dennis Miller on obamacare.
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Campfire Tracker
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Campfire Tracker
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My Jetta TDI was absolutely flawless, and got nearly 50 mpg. One thing about a German car, you can drive it for 8 hours and actually get out of it without complaining about your back, and that's coming from a guy with a VERY bad back. Ergonomics abound in the German cars....... the US mfg's will never get it.
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Campfire Ranger
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OP
Campfire Ranger
Joined: Aug 2004
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Well let's try something different, can anyone supply any documentation, surveys or reports that contradict these ratings?
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Joined: May 2009
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Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
Joined: May 2009
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VW has been last or close, on JD Power for years.
Mercedes was near the bottom of that list for a few years as well.
That plant they opened in Alabama drove down their reliabilty rating something fierce. Had to close it and re-train employees.... BUBBA,,," What is this here metrac system?"BROTHER,,," Why should I build these cars right fer dem rich azz honkies..."JM
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Campfire Outfitter
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Campfire Outfitter
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Consumer reports and JD powers are both jokes. Both of them focus on issues within the first year or so of ownership. The real test of quality is how long the thing lasts, and there are quite a few million mile mercedes diesels running around. When's the last time you saw a Ford or Chevy with a million miles? I'm guessing never.
CR and JD powers give similar weight in their ratings if the seat heater quits working or the transmission goes out. Of course, in the real world one's a very minor annoyance and the other will render the vehicle unusable. German vehicles also tend to require more expensive scheduled maintenance and any unscheduled maintenance is more expensive also. That blown transmission at 20K miles on a chevy might cost $1200 to fix, but that german car's seat heater might cost the same thing. There are also a lot more gadgets on german cars, they like all the electronic gadgets and those things go out more often, on the chevy they don't exist so they can't break.
The problem with CR and JD powers in my mind is that what they call reliability isn't what I consider reliability. I don't care if the radio goes out after two months, I'll take it in and get it fixed under warranty. I care if the vehicle holds together over 200,000 miles and I trust the germans to build a vehicle that will do that better than GM or Ford. Jap cars are another matter which is why there are two toyotas and one honda in my driveway. Two of those three jap cars were built in america by americans. However, they were designed with a philosophy of quality instead of the cost centered philosophy of U.S. car companies.
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Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 48,411 |
we had a 535 and a 318 that were both very reliable cars....we quit buying them because the dealership here was run by a-holes and we didn't want to deal with them. never had a problem with the cars.
Proudly representing oil companies, defense contractors, and firearms manufacturers since 1980. Because merchants of death need lawyers, too.
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Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
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Woulda figured you for a M5 guy.......... 
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Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
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wouldn't mind one...they were wife's cars. I drive Suburbans, always have.
Proudly representing oil companies, defense contractors, and firearms manufacturers since 1980. Because merchants of death need lawyers, too.
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 28,185
Campfire Ranger
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OP
Campfire Ranger
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 28,185 |
Consumer reports and JD powers are both jokes. Both of them focus on issues within the first year or so of ownership. The real test of quality is how long the thing lasts, and there are quite a few million mile mercedes diesels running around. When's the last time you saw a Ford or Chevy with a million miles? I'm guessing never.
CR and JD powers give similar weight in their ratings if the seat heater quits working or the transmission goes out. Of course, in the real world one's a very minor annoyance and the other will render the vehicle unusable. German vehicles also tend to require more expensive scheduled maintenance and any unscheduled maintenance is more expensive also. That blown transmission at 20K miles on a chevy might cost $1200 to fix, but that german car's seat heater might cost the same thing. There are also a lot more gadgets on german cars, they like all the electronic gadgets and those things go out more often, on the chevy they don't exist so they can't break.
The problem with CR and JD powers in my mind is that what they call reliability isn't what I consider reliability. I don't care if the radio goes out after two months, I'll take it in and get it fixed under warranty. I care if the vehicle holds together over 200,000 miles and I trust the germans to build a vehicle that will do that better than GM or Ford. Jap cars are another matter which is why there are two toyotas and one honda in my driveway. Two of those three jap cars were built in america by americans. However, they were designed with a philosophy of quality instead of the cost centered philosophy of U.S. car companies. Well show me a study to contradict them, I'd be interested. Here is a ten year study that mirrors Japanese dominance in reliability. http://www.gizmag.com/go/5657/I mean I hear what you are saying, but then you tell me you have two Japanese cars in the driveway. I was toying with the idea of buying a used BMW or Audi someday, when I looked into it I was discouraged. My friend has an expensive BMW, big heavy car with a V-12, he told me that when his brakes need replacing he just can't change the pads, the pads and rotors come as one now, very expensive brake jobs. Parts and service very expensive. Unreliable translating to expensive trips to the dealer. If I were to buy a Certified German car someday, all of this has taught me to pony up for the extended warranty.
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Campfire Oracle
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Campfire Oracle
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BMW is sourcing parts from their Chinese manufacturing plants.
Suspension components are a major problem area.
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