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Polska Offline OP
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Wondering if there is a big difference in stopping power between the two. The reason i'm asking is I'm considering buying a 416 ruger, but I also like the .458 win mag because of more ammo availability and more bullet choices for reloading.. however the .416 ruger has flatter trajectory and probably better penetration because it is a smaller caliber... am I right or wrong? But the .458 seems like it would be better close up stopper. The problem with the .458 is that I can't seem to find a rifle under $1000 that is synthetic and stainless steel with express sights with a short barrel. The .416 ruger is nice because I can get the ruger m77 hawkeye alaskan... which is a nice gun and for $800 it's affordable.


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Buy 'em both. You can never have enough 'over .400' caliber rifles.


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I can tell you their is a big difference in "Penetration" of the bullet after hitting the target or animal. The .416 wins this match hands down.

The .458 mag has the advantage of more frontal area and 100 grains more bullet weight, which is a plus. I have both and several others and my 416 Rem mag is my favorite all around big bore rifle.

It also can be used for plains game with 300 grain bullets, giving you the same trajectory as a 30-06 but with a lot of clout you betcha.


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Originally Posted by Polska
Wondering if there is a big difference in stopping power between the two. The reason i'm asking is I'm considering buying a 416 ruger, but I also like the .458 win mag because of more ammo availability and more bullet choices for reloading.. however the .416 ruger has flatter trajectory and probably better penetration because it is a smaller caliber... am I right or wrong? But the .458 seems like it would be better close up stopper. The problem with the .458 is that I can't seem to find a rifle under $1000 that is synthetic and stainless steel with express sights with a short barrel. The .416 ruger is nice because I can get the ruger m77 hawkeye alaskan... which is a nice gun and for $800 it's affordable.
.............First! Aside from the cartridge, the rifle you get is also very important. Remember the thread you began in the African section about a 416 Ruger Alaskan? Well, unless you cut the barrel down to 20" and maybe do some other work to lighten things up a little bit, you generally won`t find a rifle like a Ruger Alaskan that is chambered in a 458 Win Mag. A 458 Win rifle will be heavier, less handy, less manuverable and longer than the 416 Ruger Alaskan, and will surely cost you more. If you reload, 416 Ruger brass to my knowledge, is no problem to get. Midway has some listed there now.

Secondly! Anything you can successfully hunt with a 458 Win, will apply to the 416 Ruger. When on a guided African DG hunt, or on a NA guided DG hunt, there is always a back up rifle/rifles at the ready. It won`t matter if your carrying a 600 Nitro Express.

Thirdly! If the cost matters to you, as you mention above, the 416 Ruger Alaskan is an excellent compromise.

The 416 Ruger Alaskan sells for an excellent price, will stop any game on earth, has a shorter OAL, is handier with its 20" barrel, is flatter shooting, can double as a plains game rifle using lighter bullets, and imo regardless of 416 bullet selection or the lack of it, it is a more versatile cartridge in the field than is the 458 Win Mag.

The 458 Win is at its best as a shorter ranged DG stopper. The 416 Ruger won`t be all that far behind in that dept, while adding more range versatilty.



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Stopping power has been found of late to be more myth than fact. A 416 will actually outpenetrate a 458 in most cases, all other factors being roughly equal. A 416 round through the brain of an Ele will give you a great big thud sound. A miss of the brain with a 505 Gibbs will give - SOMETIMES- a stun effect but so will a near miss from a 416 - sometimes. Can't count on that, better to use a rifle you can shoot well and HIT with. More stopping power in that methodology, always. Short answer to the question, both are capable of doing anything a hand held rifle can be expected to do. Buy and hut with whichever you like with total confidence so long as good bullets are used and placed correctly.


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There is not a "big difference" between either round, any way you care to compare them. One is bit flatter shooting and the other a bit heavier hitting. If you are a guide or PH and absolutely need to stop a charge then I prefer the .458. if you are a hunter wanting more versatility then get the .416. There is enough overlap that either will do double duty.


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Originally Posted by Tonk
I can tell you their is a big difference in "Penetration" of the bullet after hitting the target or animal. The .416 wins this match hands down.

The .458 mag has the advantage of more frontal area and 100 grains more bullet weight, which is a plus. I have both and several others and my 416 Rem mag is my favorite all around big bore rifle.

It also can be used for plains game with 300 grain bullets, giving you the same trajectory as a 30-06 but with a lot of clout you betcha.


I figured the 416 would be a better penetrator...

Thanks bro... you confirmed my thoughts


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Originally Posted by safariman
Stopping power has been found of late to be more myth than fact. A 416 will actually outpenetrate a 458 in most cases, all other factors being roughly equal. A 416 round through the brain of an Ele will give you a great big thud sound. A miss of the brain with a 505 Gibbs will give - SOMETIMES- a stun effect but so will a near miss from a 416 - sometimes. Can't count on that, better to use a rifle you can shoot well and HIT with. More stopping power in that methodology, always. Short answer to the question, both are capable of doing anything a hand held rifle can be expected to do. Buy and hut with whichever you like with total confidence so long as good bullets are used and placed correctly.


Thanks bro... thats exactly what my thoughts are.. 416 out penetrates the .458 but but the 458 has more mass... however this can be good thing and bad thing.


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Originally Posted by 458Win
There is not a "big difference" between either round, any way you care to compare them. One is bit flatter shooting and the other a bit heavier hitting. If you are a guide or PH and absolutely need to stop a charge then I prefer the .458. if you are a hunter wanting more versatility then get the .416. There is enough overlap that either will do double duty.


Thanks... my thoughts exactly.. needed someone who knows their stuff to confirm it so i don't end up regretting my purchase


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Originally Posted by bigsqueeze
Originally Posted by Polska
Wondering if there is a big difference in stopping power between the two. The reason i'm asking is I'm considering buying a 416 ruger, but I also like the .458 win mag because of more ammo availability and more bullet choices for reloading.. however the .416 ruger has flatter trajectory and probably better penetration because it is a smaller caliber... am I right or wrong? But the .458 seems like it would be better close up stopper. The problem with the .458 is that I can't seem to find a rifle under $1000 that is synthetic and stainless steel with express sights with a short barrel. The .416 ruger is nice because I can get the ruger m77 hawkeye alaskan... which is a nice gun and for $800 it's affordable.
.............First! Aside from the cartridge, the rifle you get is also very important. Remember the thread you began in the African section about a 416 Ruger Alaskan? Well, unless you cut the barrel down to 20" and maybe do some other work to lighten things up a little bit, you generally won`t find a rifle like a Ruger Alaskan that is chambered in a 458 Win Mag. A 458 Win rifle will be heavier, less handy, less manuverable and longer than the 416 Ruger Alaskan, and will surely cost you more. If you reload, 416 Ruger brass to my knowledge, is no problem to get. Midway has some listed there now.

Secondly! Anything you can successfully hunt with a 458 Win, will apply to the 416 Ruger. When on a guided African DG hunt, or on a NA guided DG hunt, there is always a back up rifle/rifles at the ready. It won`t matter if your carrying a 600 Nitro Express.

Thirdly! If the cost matters to you, as you mention above, the 416 Ruger Alaskan is an excellent compromise.

The 416 Ruger Alaskan sells for an excellent price, will stop any game on earth, has a shorter OAL, is handier with its 20" barrel, is flatter shooting, can double as a plains game rifle using lighter bullets, and imo regardless of 416 bullet selection or the lack of it, it is a more versatile cartridge in the field than is the 458 Win Mag.

The 458 Win is at its best as a shorter ranged DG stopper. The 416 Ruger won`t be all that far behind in that dept, while adding more range versatilty.



I think the .416 is the right gun for me... in certain cases the .416 is better because it has better penetration


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If ya can`t get the job done with a 416 Ruger, then you`d be hard pressed to do so with a 458 as well.

Won`t be the fault of either round if that were the case.

You`ll have the same rifle as my 375 Ruger Alaskan, but with a bigger hole through the plumbing.


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After 27 years of use and a lot of testing I remain unconvinced of any superior penetrating ability of the .416 ( 400 gr bullet @ 2350fps) over the 458 ( 500gr bullet @ 2150fps) A little - maybe, sometimes if you are using stout solids - but not enough to make me choose one over the other.


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I sure as Hell ain't anywhere NEAR the class of 458Win and Safariman. Please allow me my observations. I use a 45-110 Sharps Rifle to hunt with. It flattened a bull moose with 1 shot.Last week a few of the Campfire brethren hunted buffalo in Wyoming. ONE used a 375 Ruger,the other 2 of us used 45-110's,one original (mine) and one Shiloh Sharps. I saw all 3 bison get hit. The 45 caliber rifles were absolutely devastating. The 375 Ruger killed but the immediate effect was not significant. The BP loaded 545 grain bullet from my gun hit the buffler and drove it to its knees. Jorge's shot blew his buffler right out of its sneakers. I think I'd go with a 458 Win. As far as I am concerned,45 caliber rifles are pure killing machines.


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I have owned 4 different .416's and lost count on the .458's. I sold off all the .416 and went with the .458 caliber.

The .416's were in my impression a very nice and manageable step up from the wonderful and easy shooting .375 H&H, but the .458's really turn into something else when you load 500gn and 550gn bullets.

The easy load is the 350fgn X bullets or 400gn Woodleighs and my favorite bullet for all round use is the discontinued 400gn X bullet and then move up to the 550gn Woodleigh. I never saw much use for the 500gn when the heavier slug was available.

A 550gn .458 bullet is a significant step up from the .416 offerings I tried up to 410gn in weight. Sure, they will all kill and are more that is necessary in most cases but we are talking comparison here and not "need".

John


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The 458 surely has the better stopping power at the shorter ranges. But what the 416 does that a 458 cannot do quite as well, is offer better longer ranged, flatter shooting versatility for non dangerous plains game.

But as with anything and everything, there are compromises. Being just about right in the middle caliber wise, the 416 offers some of what the 375s can do and a little of what the 458s can do.

Can`t have everything perfectly suited to ALL needs and wishes wrapped up in one cartridge. That`s usually why compromising is done.

For plains game and DG too, the 416 is an excellent compromise between a 375 and a 458.


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The other benefit of the 416 is you can shoot it from field positions without regard to recoil. The same cannot be said of the 458. The 458 is wonderful offhand, but from field positions you are going to need some additional mental effort before squezing off a round.

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Polska.........In case you haven`t seen this, here`s is a little look see into the 416 Ruger.

rifleshootermag.com,,,,,,,click on "view all" in the video section,,,,,click "ammo" at upper right, and find the video about the 416 Ruger w/Boddington.

You`ll also see Boddington shooting the Alaskan rifle too.



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Ummmmmmmm OK Gentlemen! I have 2 model 70 Winchester .458 magnum rifles in our vault and 2 of those .416's as well, only one is a .416 Rem. mag model 70 Winchester and the other is a .416 Rigby.

Some of the tests I have run and others such as Mike La Grange tell me all I need to know about penetration. The .416 calibers simply will out penetrate those larger slugs in the .458 Win mag. Also if you really want to gain the power from using the .458 bullet, one must jump to the Lott or Watts to do so.

We all know the .458 magnum has the power edge over the .416 caliber but that is NOT the frigging question is it! Some one not long ago put pictures up of the elephant that was shot in the rearend and the .416 Rem mag bullet traveled 22 feet and was recovered in the one tusk of the animal. NO .458 mag bullet is going to do that for a fact, not even an Aussie 550 grain slug.


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Originally Posted by Tonk

Some of the tests I have run and others such as Mike La Grange tell me all I need to know about penetration. The .416 calibers simply will out penetrate those larger slugs in the .458 Win mag. Also if you really want to gain the power from using the .458 bullet, one must jump to the Lott or Watts to do so.
.


To outright claim that the 416 outpenetrates the 458 can be misleading unless you also compare bullets
Here are two bullets fired into the same stack of alternating wet and dry magazines. On the left is a 400 swift A-frame from a 404 Jeffery that was basically duplicating the 416 Rigby load at around 2300fps. It is resting on the page where it stopped.
On the right is a 500 gr Hornady soft fired from my 20" bbl 458 Win and was clocked at 2050 fps. The bullet out penetrated the 404 bullet by another 4" (20% farther) and you can see the damage it was doing during that time.

[Linked Image]

Considering the thousands of elephants and other big game that Mike LaGrange has shot his opinion is one to consider and in his book he says that when everything is considered the 458 Win is his favorite as there comes a time when the most important thing is shot placement and the 458 Win is enough for any animal under any conditions.

Also when Harry Selby decided sell his .416 Rigby he chose the standard 458 Win as a replacement- in a PF M-70!


My point is not that the .416 or .404 are bad. They are great rounds. So is the 458 Lott. But there are no flies on the standard 458 Win with modern ammo.


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Originally Posted by 458Win
Originally Posted by Tonk

Some of the tests I have run and others such as Mike La Grange tell me all I need to know about penetration. The .416 calibers simply will out penetrate those larger slugs in the .458 Win mag. Also if you really want to gain the power from using the .458 bullet, one must jump to the Lott or Watts to do so.
.


To outright claim that the 416 outpenetrates the 458 can be misleading unless you also compare bullets
Here are two bullets fired into the same stack of alternating wet and dry magazines. On the left is a 400 swift A-frame from a 404 Jeffery that was basically duplicating the 416 Rigby load at around 2300fps. It is resting on the page where it stopped.
On the right is a 500 gr Hornady soft fired from my 20" bbl 458 Win and was clocked at 2050 fps. The bullet out penetrated the 404 bullet by another 4" (20% farther) and you can see the damage it was doing during that time.

[Linked Image]

Considering the thousands of elephants and other big game that Mike LaGrange has shot his opinion is one to consider and in his book he says that when everything is considered the 458 Win is his favorite as there comes a time when the most important thing is shot placement and the 458 Win is enough for any animal under any conditions.

Also when Harry Selby decided sell his .416 Rigby he chose the standard 458 Win as a replacement- in a PF M-70!


My point is not that the .416 or .404 are bad. They are great rounds. So is the 458 Lott. But there are no flies on the standard 458 Win with modern ammo.


I have read LaGrange's book and conclusion and agree with both he and Phil. The comment about bullets is also relevant as I also saw the pic of that .416 bullet in the tusk and it was a solid so what is the surprise as there sure is no lesson here?

JW



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