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#4700165 - 12/14/10 12:13 AM Re: .416's vs. 458's [Re: Polska]
bigsqueeze Offline
Campfire Tracker

Registered: 01/04/09
Posts: 6287
Loc: So Cal
If ya can`t get the job done with a 416 Ruger, then you`d be hard pressed to do so with a 458 as well.

Won`t be the fault of either round if that were the case.

You`ll have the same rifle as my 375 Ruger Alaskan, but with a bigger hole through the plumbing.
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300WSM,,,,338-378 Wby,,,,375 Ruger



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#4700171 - 12/14/10 12:21 AM Re: .416's vs. 458's [Re: bigsqueeze]
458Win Offline
Campfire Ranger

Registered: 01/04/05
Posts: 2354
Loc: SW AK, In the foot print of P...
After 27 years of use and a lot of testing I remain unconvinced of any superior penetrating ability of the .416 ( 400 gr bullet @ 2350fps) over the 458 ( 500gr bullet @ 2150fps) A little - maybe, sometimes if you are using stout solids - but not enough to make me choose one over the other.
_________________________
Phil Shoemaker
www.grizzlyskinsofalaska.com

Anyone who claims the 30-06 is not effective has either not used one, or else is unwittingly commenting on their marksmanship.

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#4700358 - 12/14/10 04:58 AM Re: .416's vs. 458's [Re: 458Win]
EvilTwin Offline
Campfire Kahuna

Registered: 11/01/04
Posts: 16522
Loc: Upstate NY
I sure as Hell ain't anywhere NEAR the class of 458Win and Safariman. Please allow me my observations. I use a 45-110 Sharps Rifle to hunt with. It flattened a bull moose with 1 shot.Last week a few of the Campfire brethren hunted buffalo in Wyoming. ONE used a 375 Ruger,the other 2 of us used 45-110's,one original (mine) and one Shiloh Sharps. I saw all 3 bison get hit. The 45 caliber rifles were absolutely devastating. The 375 Ruger killed but the immediate effect was not significant. The BP loaded 545 grain bullet from my gun hit the buffler and drove it to its knees. Jorge's shot blew his buffler right out of its sneakers. I think I'd go with a 458 Win. As far as I am concerned,45 caliber rifles are pure killing machines.
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#4705676 - 12/15/10 11:17 AM Re: .416's vs. 458's [Re: EvilTwin]
AussieGunWriter Online   content
Campfire Guide

Registered: 05/31/05
Posts: 4451
I have owned 4 different .416's and lost count on the .458's. I sold off all the .416 and went with the .458 caliber.

The .416's were in my impression a very nice and manageable step up from the wonderful and easy shooting .375 H&H, but the .458's really turn into something else when you load 500gn and 550gn bullets.

The easy load is the 350fgn X bullets or 400gn Woodleighs and my favorite bullet for all round use is the discontinued 400gn X bullet and then move up to the 550gn Woodleigh. I never saw much use for the 500gn when the heavier slug was available.

A 550gn .458 bullet is a significant step up from the .416 offerings I tried up to 410gn in weight. Sure, they will all kill and are more that is necessary in most cases but we are talking comparison here and not "need".

John
_________________________
What I offer, is yours to keep, yours to use, yours to ignore. The freedom to choose, is what matters to me most.

The only way to improve a .30/06, is to clean it once in a while.


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#4706394 - 12/15/10 02:35 PM Re: .416's vs. 458's [Re: AussieGunWriter]
bigsqueeze Offline
Campfire Tracker

Registered: 01/04/09
Posts: 6287
Loc: So Cal
The 458 surely has the better stopping power at the shorter ranges. But what the 416 does that a 458 cannot do quite as well, is offer better longer ranged, flatter shooting versatility for non dangerous plains game.

But as with anything and everything, there are compromises. Being just about right in the middle caliber wise, the 416 offers some of what the 375s can do and a little of what the 458s can do.

Can`t have everything perfectly suited to ALL needs and wishes wrapped up in one cartridge. That`s usually why compromising is done.

For plains game and DG too, the 416 is an excellent compromise between a 375 and a 458.
_________________________
300WSM,,,,338-378 Wby,,,,375 Ruger



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#4707097 - 12/15/10 05:10 PM Re: .416's vs. 458's [Re: bigsqueeze]
458 Lott Offline
Campfire 'Bwana

Registered: 01/29/01
Posts: 12578
Loc: Conundrum, Alaska
The other benefit of the 416 is you can shoot it from field positions without regard to recoil. The same cannot be said of the 458. The 458 is wonderful offhand, but from field positions you are going to need some additional mental effort before squezing off a round.
_________________________
I'm not a gunwriter, that's 458 win. I'm just a gun-nut in Alaska.

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#4707698 - 12/15/10 07:05 PM Re: .416's vs. 458's [Re: 458 Lott]
bigsqueeze Offline
Campfire Tracker

Registered: 01/04/09
Posts: 6287
Loc: So Cal
Polska.........In case you haven`t seen this, here`s is a little look see into the 416 Ruger.

rifleshootermag.com,,,,,,,click on "view all" in the video section,,,,,click "ammo" at upper right, and find the video about the 416 Ruger w/Boddington.

You`ll also see Boddington shooting the Alaskan rifle too.
_________________________
300WSM,,,,338-378 Wby,,,,375 Ruger



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#4708249 - 12/15/10 09:26 PM Re: .416's vs. 458's [Re: bigsqueeze]
Tonk Offline
Campfire Guide

Registered: 03/28/09
Posts: 3090
Loc: Chicago, Ill.
Ummmmmmmm OK Gentlemen! I have 2 model 70 Winchester .458 magnum rifles in our vault and 2 of those .416's as well, only one is a .416 Rem. mag model 70 Winchester and the other is a .416 Rigby.

Some of the tests I have run and others such as Mike La Grange tell me all I need to know about penetration. The .416 calibers simply will out penetrate those larger slugs in the .458 Win mag. Also if you really want to gain the power from using the .458 bullet, one must jump to the Lott or Watts to do so.

We all know the .458 magnum has the power edge over the .416 caliber but that is NOT the frigging question is it! Some one not long ago put pictures up of the elephant that was shot in the rearend and the .416 Rem mag bullet traveled 22 feet and was recovered in the one tusk of the animal. NO .458 mag bullet is going to do that for a fact, not even an Aussie 550 grain slug.
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#4708530 - 12/16/10 12:12 AM Re: .416's vs. 458's [Re: Tonk]
458Win Offline
Campfire Ranger

Registered: 01/04/05
Posts: 2354
Loc: SW AK, In the foot print of P...
Originally Posted By: Tonk

Some of the tests I have run and others such as Mike La Grange tell me all I need to know about penetration. The .416 calibers simply will out penetrate those larger slugs in the .458 Win mag. Also if you really want to gain the power from using the .458 bullet, one must jump to the Lott or Watts to do so.
.


To outright claim that the 416 outpenetrates the 458 can be misleading unless you also compare bullets
Here are two bullets fired into the same stack of alternating wet and dry magazines. On the left is a 400 swift A-frame from a 404 Jeffery that was basically duplicating the 416 Rigby load at around 2300fps. It is resting on the page where it stopped.
On the right is a 500 gr Hornady soft fired from my 20" bbl 458 Win and was clocked at 2050 fps. The bullet out penetrated the 404 bullet by another 4" (20% farther) and you can see the damage it was doing during that time.



Considering the thousands of elephants and other big game that Mike LaGrange has shot his opinion is one to consider and in his book he says that when everything is considered the 458 Win is his favorite as there comes a time when the most important thing is shot placement and the 458 Win is enough for any animal under any conditions.

Also when Harry Selby decided sell his .416 Rigby he chose the standard 458 Win as a replacement- in a PF M-70!


My point is not that the .416 or .404 are bad. They are great rounds. So is the 458 Lott. But there are no flies on the standard 458 Win with modern ammo.
_________________________
Phil Shoemaker
www.grizzlyskinsofalaska.com

Anyone who claims the 30-06 is not effective has either not used one, or else is unwittingly commenting on their marksmanship.

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#4709881 - 12/16/10 10:05 AM Re: .416's vs. 458's [Re: 458Win]
AussieGunWriter Online   content
Campfire Guide

Registered: 05/31/05
Posts: 4451
Originally Posted By: 458Win
Originally Posted By: Tonk

Some of the tests I have run and others such as Mike La Grange tell me all I need to know about penetration. The .416 calibers simply will out penetrate those larger slugs in the .458 Win mag. Also if you really want to gain the power from using the .458 bullet, one must jump to the Lott or Watts to do so.
.


To outright claim that the 416 outpenetrates the 458 can be misleading unless you also compare bullets
Here are two bullets fired into the same stack of alternating wet and dry magazines. On the left is a 400 swift A-frame from a 404 Jeffery that was basically duplicating the 416 Rigby load at around 2300fps. It is resting on the page where it stopped.
On the right is a 500 gr Hornady soft fired from my 20" bbl 458 Win and was clocked at 2050 fps. The bullet out penetrated the 404 bullet by another 4" (20% farther) and you can see the damage it was doing during that time.



Considering the thousands of elephants and other big game that Mike LaGrange has shot his opinion is one to consider and in his book he says that when everything is considered the 458 Win is his favorite as there comes a time when the most important thing is shot placement and the 458 Win is enough for any animal under any conditions.

Also when Harry Selby decided sell his .416 Rigby he chose the standard 458 Win as a replacement- in a PF M-70!


My point is not that the .416 or .404 are bad. They are great rounds. So is the 458 Lott. But there are no flies on the standard 458 Win with modern ammo.


I have read LaGrange's book and conclusion and agree with both he and Phil. The comment about bullets is also relevant as I also saw the pic of that .416 bullet in the tusk and it was a solid so what is the surprise as there sure is no lesson here?

JW

_________________________
What I offer, is yours to keep, yours to use, yours to ignore. The freedom to choose, is what matters to me most.

The only way to improve a .30/06, is to clean it once in a while.


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