Home Forums Reloading Big Game Rifles 6.5x55 and RL17

Anyone have any success with the Swede and Reloader 17? I want to run the 120 NBT up in the the 2900-3000 fps range in a T3.

I haven't tried RL17 in the Swede,but I have had excellent results using RL19 and the 125 grain NP. I'm curious about RL17 too.

I use re22 with teh 129 gr spirepoint with very good results. I used 260 rem max loads and worked up.

OK that is interesting about starting with the 260 max loads. I figured that would work given the slightly larger case capacity. I figured I would start a bit below 260 max.

Take it for what it is worth..

but I was curious about the capacity difference in the 6.5 x 5 and a 260... I profess to using necked down Winchester 7/08 and 308 brass for my 260's needs..

however when filling a case to the rim with H 380 and then weighing it, I found that Rem 6.5 x 55 brass, necked down 7/08 and 308 Win brass, and necked up Win 257 Roberts brass to 6.5 x 57...all three cases compared.. the 260 only held one grain less of H 380 than the other two.. and the other two held exactly the same amount of H 380...

so make of it what you will..... I use 260 Data for my 6.5 x 55 loads...plus I also use older data from Speer Number 7 manual for the Swede and apply it to the 6.5 x 57....

the Swede is capable of some pretty fast velocity, with 120 grain bullets, and definitely in excess of 3000 fps, showing no effects on the brass...using the same cases for 10 plus reloads..

You should have no problem getting 3000 FPS with 120's out of the 6.5x55 w/ Re17 in a strong action rifle. Alliant lists 44.0gr of Re17 as the max load for the 260 Remington. In a T3, I'd use that as the starting load and carefully work up. I've used Re17 with moly coated 108gr Lapua's and was getting 3150fps out of my Sako 75 (same barrel as the T3) with no pressure signs.

If you can't get the velocity you want w/ Re17 try N550 or N560. With N560 I push a moly coated 130gr Swift Scirocco II at 2950fps quite nicely out of my Sako. As far as I can tell (and God knows I've tried a lot of loads) it's one of the flattest shooting 6.5x55 hunting loads out there.

If you're going to use the load on game I highly recommend the Swift bullet. The Swifts are a little more pricey then the Nosler's but they sure do perform a hell of a lot better on game.

I have N550 and 560 as well. I would like to try the Swifts, but I have shot two deer with these 120NBTs doing only 2750fps and I was astonished at how these deer went down.

Every deer I have shot with a Nosler Partition has died quickly, and with one shot. I doubt anything is a LOT better.

Partitions are a different story from Ballistic Tips...Partitions are great bullets hands down.

I've also shot a number of deer and antelope with Nosler Ballistic Tips and they have always died promptly. I just have beef with how soft the NBT's are.

They way I look at it is if I'm going to put all that effort & money into load work up I want a bullet that I know will get the job done on anything I may want to hunt with my rifle. I would have no issues shooting a bull elk with my 6.5x55 with a Swift Scirocco II. I wouldn't do the same with a NBT.

Re 17 and N560 really are my two favorite powders for the 6.5x55. Re19 is also very good but there's more to be gotten from Re17 with light bullets and N560 with heavier bullets. I've done load work up for two Sako 75's and a Tikka T3 in 6.5x55. All of them with Lapua brass and CCI BR-2's and with one hunting bullet or another they each will put 5 into 0.5in @ 100yrds.

I've gotten very useful results from RL 19 and 7828 with the 120 BT in my Swede. That bullet has also accounted for several caribou with little needless fuss or mess. 17 seems a bit fast for the Swede based on my sample; it seems to like everything a bit slower burn rate-wise.

Re17 seems fast for the 6.5x55 but with light bullets (130gr or less) out of a 22 or 24 inch barrel I found it gives just as just as much velocity or more then the slower powders as well as great accuracy and SD's. I really think the last 10% to 15% of the slower powders just end up as muzzle flash in barrels shorter then 26 inches. It also works really well in the 30-06 and 300 Win mag w/ 165gr or 168gr bullets. Don't blow it off just cause it seems too fast. Try it and I bet you'll like it.

BTY,

Two points:

Muzzle flash is not caused by unburned powder, as you apparently assume. Almost all smokeless powder is burned within a few inches of the chamber. Instead the flash is caused by hot gas reigniting when it takes on oxygen from the atmosphere.

If you'll check out the pressure-tested dat from Alliant, you'll find that Reloder 22 gets more velocity than Reloder 17.

Why the beef? Ballistics Tips kill fast because they blow the front 30-50% of their weight. Kill deer sized game like lightning just as they were designed to do.

It's not that they don't get the job done..It's just how they do it that I think can be improved and already has been in the Accubond and even more so in the Scirocco II and the TTSX.

I no longer use NBT�s because they do just that; blow %50 of their weight. And 50% loss is optimistically on the low side. When they hit a shoulder they leave lots of ruined meat behind and if they make it through they leave even more to waste on the offside. When I see someone hunting with NBTs in a high velocity rifle I think to myself �So much for the front quarters�.

What advantage does the NBT have to any other hunting bullet out there? It�s a soft cup and core bullet with a pretty colored plastic tip. The tip keeps it pointy and helps the B.C. but there are other bullets w/o tips that have higher B.C.�s. From what I�ve seen there are other cheaper bullets (sierra game kings) that do better at holding together than the NBT and are just as accurate and kill just as quickly. If you were going on a hunt and knew that you were going to get a shot at an animal of a lifetime would you choose a NBT over a bonded, partitioned, or an expanding solid copper bullet?

It is bullet penetration into the vitals that ensures the animal dies. Bullet expansion expedites death to a point via increased tissue damage unless too much expansion results in the bullet not penetrating into the vitals. The transfer of force or energy has little or nothing to do with it regardless of what the bullet and ammunition companies imply in their advertisements.

There are no magic shock waves created by quick expanding bullets; just tissue damage. Physics tells us that we feel more force on our shoulders from recoil then the animal feels from the bullet. If you don�t believe me do the math or if you're the cruel sort shoot a deer in the bum (Texas, Wisconsin, Wyoming, ect. heart shot) with a 6.5mm 120gr NBT at 3000fps and see what happens. The bullet may get to the vitals and it may not. None the less, do the same with a TSX and it will get the job done.

I can already hear people saying �Well, I shot my deer behind the shoulders with a NBT and it did a flipped, landed on its back, and die right there. Now that�s proof of energy transfer!� And I say �How would you react to being stung by a bee X 10,000?� You would do a back flip as well. Every animal reacts differently.

A bullet that�s a little too hard will still kill quickly with a well-placed shot. A bullet that�s a little too soft will not. A bullet that retains mass, while still expanding, will penetrate farther then a bullet that doesn�t retain its mass and will always be a more reliable killer on a larger variety of game with well-placed shots. With a solid bullet I know I could take any game animal on the planet with my 6.5x55 as long as I picked my shots (brain, spine, heart). I know I couldn�t do that with a NBT nor with any other expanding bullet.

There are other bullets that out penetrate and leave less lead (or no lead) in the animal (eating lead isn�t great for you) then the NBT while still inflicting plenty of tissue damage to result in a quick death. There are other bullets with higher B.C.�s which means at distance they will retain more velocity and therefore a flatter trajectory and more energy (for more penetration and tissue damage).

Now here is a case for the NBT. It�s a great game bullet for lower velocity rifles. If I was going to work up a load for say a 6.5 Grendel one of the first bullets I would reach for would be a 120gr NBT. I know that it will expand well at the lower impact velocities and because of the lower velocity it would retain a good amount of its weight and not make a mess of everything.

I know Nosler makes great versatile game bullets but they are Accubonds and Partitions. I�ve used them both and like them very much.

From my point of view and from what I've seen, whether you are putting meat on the table or trying to take a once in a life time head for the wall, there are better bullets for the job then the NBT. There is however no better cartridge for the job then the 6.5x55 and for that statement I have no long winded argument.

Mule Deer,

The un-oxidized hot gasses that reignite to form the muzzle flash are not part of the powder or a direct result of it oxidizing?

Isn�t then what you said just complexly restating what I said that all the powder didn�t burn?

If not from the powder where do the gasses come from? There�s not much atmospheric air behind the bullet. There�s nothing but powder and a small amount of air in my cases. I�m not trying to be a smart ass�I�m a chemist; please explain, I can take it.

Don�t the gasses contain potential energy in the form of un-oxidized molecules that come from the powder that could be better used by oxidizing them resulting in expansion which would end up pushing the bullet faster?

Does a large muzzle flash mean the powder needs more oxidizer (or less retardant; ether one makes it a faster powder) or a longer barrel for it to be more efficient?

Is not a flame out the tail pipe wasted fuel and not simply just ignited hot air?


When it comes to velocity, I trust what my chronograph tells me not what Alliant or another powder companies list. Especially with the 6.5x55 when loaded to modern pressures in a strong action modern rifle with less than a 26in barrel. Physicists write load manuals and lawyers edit them. Most the sources only list the pressures for mild 6.5x55 loads (45,000cup, 50,000psi max) because of Krags and Mauser 96�s. The only load data that I�ve found that is anywhere near actual max is Lapua/VhitaVuori. U.S. based data, even listed for modern rifle actions, is low and slow. I'm not telling anyone to go off and do something dangerous. Start low, work up, and know when to stop. I just know for a fact from loading and shooting a lot of 6.5x55 in modern rifles that there is more to be had from the cartridge then anyone will tell you. In full form, it�s just a half a step under the 6.5x284 and 6.5-06 in any give barrel length. Not bad for being nearly 120 years old.

BTY, did you have to do much experimenting with seating depth the get the Scirocco to shoot well? I have found secant ogives to be that way in the past with the tangents being a little more tolerant.

My T3 Tikka in a 6.5x55 really likes RL-19 and 120 gr. Barnes TSX. Just under 3000fps with a max book load. Buckfever1

BTY,

Most folks who suggest that the muzzle flash is unburned powder are under the mistaken impression that the flash is made of still-burning kernels. Since the statement you made was exactly what those people state, I assumed you were under the same impression. I'm guessing you probably were, but that is irrelevant.

However, smokeless powders are all designed to burn most efficiently within a certain pressure-range, anywhere from about 10,000 to 60,000 psi, depending on their intended use.

Burning of the actual kernels happens within a very short distance in front of the chamber. Some kernels may still be unburned, but because the pressure drops so quickly after its initial peak, they will never ignite and be blown out of the muzzle with the expanding gas.

By the time the gas from typical rifle powders reaches the muzzle, the pressure of the gas has dropped to at most 15,000 psi or so, though it's often as little as 3000 psi. There is indeed a little fuel left in the hot gas, which is what reignites when it hit the atmopshere. But the gas isn't still burning inside the barrel. It's merely expanding.

If, as you appear to suggest, every tiny bit of powder fuel should be burned up before the bullet reaches the muzzle, the bullet would start slowing down due to friction. This happens in some rimfire cartridges, but it doesn't in centerfires. That doesn't mean, however, the powder is poorly designed, or part of it "wasted." There needs to be some pressure at the muzzle to produce the velocities achieved in modern centerfire hunting cartridges.

As for your notions about Ballistic Tips, a great many other people are also under the impression that they know what a "perfect" big game bullet does.

But it has been proven many times over that a bullet that fragments does more tissue damage than one that doesn't, and tissue damage is what kills animals. A lot of hunters have found that Ballistic Tips provide very quick kills on game shot through the ribs. This is exactly what they are designed to do. If you don't like that, fine, but the big trick to not shooting up meat is not to shoot the bullet into edible meat.

Well, based on what I have observed inside deer carcasses there's something going on that creates a wound channel thru the lungs that's much larger than expanded bullet diameter and can't be credited to fragmentation. Deer I've cleaned after being hit with a BT seem to exhibit a much larger initial wound channel than say a Barnes or even Interlock. And from hi-speed photos I've seen of expanding bullets passing thru test media there does indeed seem to be "shock waves" eminating from the expanding bullet. Wouldn't call them magic nontheless they're there and their effect can be seen in real life reaction to the shot and shock. Having never killed anything larger than a deer they're my only resourse. However I have personally shot deer near the spine while not actually damaging it with the bullet and had those deer drop in their tracks and die almost immediately. Certainly they didn't wait for oxygen depravation to give up the ghost. I have also shot at least one deer I can think of offhand pretty much dead center of the chest that simply flopped & wiggled. That with a .260 and 129 Interlocks. Just sayin.