Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Elk Hunting All hail the wonderful and mighty .338 Winchester Magnum

That I'd like to see. I mean a "rifle" leaving the barrel at mach 3 or even mock 3

Your special...

Jayco

I have freinds all over the place that I dont know because of the wolf thing, so glad to meet you again. I was ahead of my time but exceedingly accurate on the wolf thing. I am just as accurate on the issue of taking less than perfect shots on game IF WE HAVE THE RIGHT EQUIPTMENT TO INSURE HUMANE KILLS---We may as well educate the new guys here "on a public forum" as any other way. Or should we let them believe myths and gun shop bs?? Shooting an older 900 lb 7x7 bull in the guts (because that is the ONLY shot he will give you, which is how he got to be a 10 year old 7x7) with a 340 WBY/338 Win. and premium bullets is no less humane than shooting a 2.5 year old 5x5 raghorn bull in the chest with a 270 Win., but you wont understand that unless you've done it a bunch. Further, I noticed several folks here discussing taking a "cheerio shot", which for all the newbies we dont want to pollute here, in public, is an up the anus shot. The "cheerio" shot is another shot that older bulls give, as they are not going to stand there broadside in the open like a 5X5 will. Well, that cheerio shot is very humane if it is done wth a 338 or 375 H&H.....I've done it and seen it done many times and with big cartridges, it kills every bit as fast as an 06 to the chest, but to try that cheerio shot with a 270 or 06 is very risky, because if you miss the tail bone, that elk will be over the next mountain. However, if you miss the tail bone with a good 338 bullet, no problem as that bull wont get 50 yards.

This type of information is not only true, but very useful and I see public forums as a way to educate by telling the truth and dispelling myths that are perpertuated by well meaning, but otherwise ignorant folks who are simply repeating the stuff they've heard for years.

The TRUTH is this, big bulls (on public lands) rarely if ever give perfect, clean shots. If you use a big/powerful enough cartridge with proper bullets, you can take most any type of BODY shot an older bull gives you and it is every bit as humane as shooting a bull in the chest (a publicaly accepted spot to shoot an elk) with a 270 or 06 class cartridge. I'm too old to run from the truth and to hide it from others for the SUPPOSED reason that it is for thier own good--I'll let them decide for themselves what is good for them, but I wont withold the truth.

Take care,
Tim

[quote=logcutter]Yet the dreaded Texas Heart Shot is a bad word around here,as Ray Atkinson put it and got blasted for it.Ever gut out a gut shot anything the traditional way?

That's why there is the "No Gut" method.Chit happens but to intentional doing it?Why not just shoot there legs off first.

Some of you guys spend more money hunting racks than actual experience and nothing matters other than a kill anyway possible!

It's always about an 8X8 and a rifle leaving the barrel at Mock 3 or 10,000 yard kills,not about hunting ethically.

Jayco {quote}

Aaaaand, long shots, say 800 yard shots with proper equiptment (in part, that means cartridges that have a lot of horse power remaining at 800 yards) being accomplished by folks who are trained and know what they are doing, is completely humane. I've hunted with guys like Darrell Holland that dont want to take a shot unless it is at least 600 yards or more, becaue they are proficient in doing so and taking those type of shots is a big part of why they hunt and they kill elk/deer/proghorn/sheep, etc quite humanly.

Even further, who are you to say it is wrong to hold out for an "8x8"? Some folks hunt for meat. Some hunt for the challange of pitting witts with the biggest/smartest animal of thier species. Either way, who are you to choose for others, why they hunt?

It's simple physics that if you hold as much constant as is possible, a .338 is capable of doing more damage to an elk than a (for instance) 30-06.

The relevance of that is debateable (lol), but the physics aren't.

However, sundles, you are on you own as far as defending intentional gut-shots.

And I do not say that to be an assho'.... just saying it because I have no experience with that.

No, not really,although we'd all like them standing prettier than that

I know because I've done it that a 200 gr partition from a 300 magnum will make from the last rib to off-side shoulder;and I've seen it done with the 340 and 210's and 225's as well.And you will have a hard time recovering any of them when angles are gentler.

How well any of them do with pure rear end shots I have no idea because I won't take that shot at an unwounded bull,but if forced to my objective would be to bust up tailbone and pelvic structure, which will put the ass enddown and allow a finisher.I have no doubt such shots are effective but simply are not my cup of tea.

It certainly makes sense to carry a rifle or load that will do that,if that's what your objective is.

These conversations sound a great deal like many I've had over the years with my old friend Bill Steigers,maker of Bitterroots.He has shot a good many elk in his day,and felt very firmly that if you are gonna be taking random body shots on big bulls, from any angle,and want to really numb them, that the 338 calibers, while good,are not as effective as the 375 bore diameter.He sort of evolved to the 375 AI(there being no RUM's around then except as wildcats),and felt strongly that the additional bore diameter of the 375 made it a better mouse trap for such shots and had more telling effect.The 375 holds about the same advantage in bore diameter over the 338's,that the 338's do over the 30's.

He used the AI version to start the 250 BBC's at 3100 and the 275's at over 2900.In a recent conversaton with him he told me if he were doing it today he's use the 375 RUM,simply because it's easier to get the velocity from it than the AI,just holds more powder.

In any event I have seen more carnage and bigger holes from the 375 stuff than anything smaller.If I was going into Idaho jungles after elk I'd just grab my 375 with 250's at 2900+ and have at it.This combo stays with the 338 and 340 to about 500 yards and what happens after that is of no interest to me anyway.

I used to worry more about this stuff than I do now....I haven't had any problem killing elk with 30's and 7mm's,and have killed nothing but mature bulls and walked away from many that I could have killed,which is no big deal.

Perhaps you could explain the "physics", I would like to hear about the "physics"

True as far as it goes, but you'd be surpised at how different bullet construction can change this and in a hurry....I have seen many times, the effect of 210 and 225 Partitions on elk...and also a 165 30 cal BBC started at 3200 from a 300 mag.

The differences will give you pause and cause reevaluation of what a guy "thinks" he "knows"...

..the reason is simple.The NPT will lose 1/3 to 40% of its weight;it's frontal area will be smaller,and at the end it will not have retained as much weight as the BBC.The higher striking velocity,coupled with early expansion to a broad frontal area will cause tremendous destruction...

Seeing both work will have you saying...."It ain't supposed to work that way..."(?)

That's what I ended up finding...

agree with BobinNH...

OU76/Brad: Even guides(guys with 200-300 elk on their belts;and brown bear as well) have commented more than once....

A call to Bill Steigers is an education in terminal performance,if no one beleives me,which is OK, too.

Bob, I think it all boils down to your comfort level. We are all individuals here. One thing we need to be out in the field is comfortable and confident in our rifle and our abiltiy to make said combination work for us. If your comfort level allows the use of a 338 wizbang magnum then so be it. I like giving my friend a hard time because he uses his 270 for everything and I myself have always used the 30-06 (old rivalry I know ), we all know what one does the other can do just as well. I think with todays bullets, less focus should be on the cartridge used and more should be on the critical things like ergonomics, weight, and shootability. As I stated earlier, 338 is what I carry and for the simple fact that it is quite managable to shoot, it is accurate, and it gives me all the confidence in the world: To give an example, the other day I was practicing some offhand shooting and managed a 2.5" group at 200 yds with my fav 338. All that being said, the most important factor in making a clean kill in most hunting situations is proficiency rather than choice in caliber. Have a merry christmas to everyone on the campfire, BSA.

I have used various "medium bores" from the .338 Winchester through the .375 H&H on a wide variety of big game, some shot at bad angles. If anybody really believes that the bigger bullets of the mediums will make up for anything more than maybe an inch of aiming error, then THEY are in error.

I have also shot lengthwise through elk and elk-sized animals with various bullets from .270 to .30 caliber, even those antique Nosler Partitions. The bullet makes more difference than the bore.

Whatever modern improvements in bullet design will do for a 30 cal. bullets terminal performance, those same improvements will do likewise for the 338 cal. bullets, no? so, whatever leaps forward in terminal effectivness a 30 cal. bullet made, so did the 338's.

For the first time ever, I recovered a 225gr. TSX from an average sized bull this fall. I was shooting my old 340 (Mauser) WBY with a muzzle vel. of 3050 fps. He was running away quartering at 350+ yards, the temperature was -10*f (just east of Butte on the east side of the CD) with about a 15 mph wind (wind chill had to have been around -30*f) and I simply wanted to kill a bull so I could go home. I took the cheerio shot at that distance and hit a few inches to left, shattering his entire pelvis, and the bullet came to rest on the opposite side of his body after it broke one of the middle ribs. Many would question the ethics of taking this shot as not only was it a bad angle shot, but it was a moving elk at long range. If you are uncomfortable taking these types of shots, then dont take them, but I have practiced for this type of shooting all my life and am capable, so judge your own abilities, but don't judge others--almost sounds biblical.............hope everyone has a great Christmas.

[quote

I have also shot lengthwise through elk and elk-sized animals with various bullets from .270 to .30 caliber, even those antique Nosler Partitions. The bullet makes more difference than the bore. [/quote]

So imagine what happens when you use those new/wonderful bullets designs in a 338 cal.

I cannot disagree with you. I shoot a lot of 06's and the good ol 06 is my favorite using cartridge, but whatever advantage modern bullet desings have given the 06, they have given to the 338 also.

I used to correspond a bit with the late George Hoffman. Aside from being a real Texas gentleman, most will likely remember him as an African PH of considerable experience and the originator of the 416 Hoffman, which Remington later legitimized as the 416 RM. He obviously had no beef with big cartridges!

In our correspondence he told me he'd killed just over 50 elk, and used mostly if not exclusively, the 270 Win. He wasn't overly impressed with the idea that the 270 Win wasn't a GREAT elk round...

Talking to some of the old greats always makes an impression.I have sat on the late Wayne Nitz porch in Elk City more than a few times talking to him about the past and his experiences as an Outfitter who catered to the likes of Jack O'Connor,he called a friend,and Elk hunting/rifles/bullets etc.It's the man putting a decent bullet where it needs to go and knowing when to pull the trigger and when not to..He explained the many degree's of Buck Fever he has seen in a lifetime of hunting and Outfitting.


They settled the Elk City/Red River area and have seen and done some amazing things.Talk about an encyclopedia of hunting experiences!!

His father(Con) Rescuing the people of Red River via Horse with snowshoes.



Jayco

This is absolultely true, but have you ever written/said something over and over and still wonder if you are being heard? So, in regards to your above statement, I have this to say for the third or fourth time. BIG BULLS RARELY IF EVER GIVE A HUNTER A GOOD SHOT, SO IF YOU WANT TO KILL A LOT OF 10 YEAR OLD BULLS, USE ENOUGH CARTRIDGE TO KILL THEM WITH A POOR SHOT AND THIS MAY MEAN A GUT SHOT OR A TEXAS HEART SHOT, ETC. OTHERWISE PASS ON THOSE POOR SHOTS. FOR THIS REASON, I USE THE 338 AND 340 WBY MOST OF THE TIME AND EVEN WITH THE VERY BEST BULLETS, I WOULD NOT TAKE A POOR SHOT ON AN ELK WITH A 270 WIN. OR AN 06, BUT THE 338 WILL GET IT DONE.

I also like the .338 Win Mag. Felt recoil is, as everyone knows, varies greatly with stock design and the weight of the rifle. A .338 WM in a Remington 700 BDL was one of the nastiest rifles I have ever fired - far worse than my .416 Rem Mag, whereas the same chambering in a custom M98 and a Sako Fiberclass were absolute pussycats - and I mean really mild.

An old, (out of service) creosote coated telephone pole was a litmus test for me.
220gr Partitions from a .30-06...
250gr Partitions from a .338WM...

Guess which one completely penetrated the pole. Twice.

Yes, a little extra goes a long way when things don't work out perfectly. Of course, one has to be able to put that extra to use correctly.